scooby074
Well-known member
Cant be tight if its liquid!
Wrench sets for rusted fasteners?
- Thread starter Jenkins
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Walkers
Well-known member
Surely you jest?! A cutting torch.
I don't live in the rust belt, but would say an impact is absolutely not the answer to your problems (but I think you know that).
The induction kits are coming down now into the sub-$250 range, and for DIY uses something like this one on Amazon would be in my kit if I dealt with a lot of rusty stuff.
As far as wrenches, the latest TTC rankings have the new Mac RBRT line just killing it, with Proto not too far behind. In your situation I'd probably have the induction tool and the RBRT's in my box if I could possibly afford it.
Carlyle and Icon both use the same factory and are 5th and 6th (with unsurprisingly near-identical scores), and it looks like the Carlyle wrenches are part of their current Fall sale. I recently got the Icons, though I can't personally vouch for them in a rusty environment since I don't deal with it..
The induction kits are coming down now into the sub-$250 range, and for DIY uses something like this one on Amazon would be in my kit if I dealt with a lot of rusty stuff.
As far as wrenches, the latest TTC rankings have the new Mac RBRT line just killing it, with Proto not too far behind. In your situation I'd probably have the induction tool and the RBRT's in my box if I could possibly afford it.
Carlyle and Icon both use the same factory and are 5th and 6th (with unsurprisingly near-identical scores), and it looks like the Carlyle wrenches are part of their current Fall sale. I recently got the Icons, though I can't personally vouch for them in a rusty environment since I don't deal with it..
I’ve honestly never heard it called that in my 45 years on this earth. Or if I have it’s zipped past me.
nbpt100
Well-known member
Blue colored flame? I think is the metaphore he is using.
I have seen induction heating tools for around $200 on line. I dont know how good they are. Induction heaters seem kinda long so if you have tight quarters it may be impossible to get it where it needs to be. Maybe those who own them can clarify this. I like the idea as you can keep the adjacent area free of heat. Important if you have plastic or rubber near by and of course the safety issues of an open flame around flammable substances.
The pricing on the Mac RBRT is interesting are they less than other Mac wrenches due to where they are made?
just watched the TTC test this morning. Now I’m leaning a bit towards them, but I wish they came in a long form. And at $300 I can probably justify that. Not as easily as the Willams wrenches but I still think I can swing it if I just stash a bit more away. They must be offshore made with that pricing. Not that I’m opposed to that or anything.
Yea after he said that it was a torch I definitely had a DUHHHHH!!! Moment. I tend to be pedantic in thought and it doesn’t always work out. Not having a flame most definitely makes me feel a bit more comfortable. I can become hyper focused on something and could definitely see some adjacent things getting caught up in the mix. I’ve done it before with a butane flame while learning to sweat in a pipe. Promptly switched to the trigger style and ditched the always on knob.
They have side facing attachments if that helps, but yeah they won't go everywhere.
RBRT are Taiwan.
VolvoRyan
Well-known member
MAPP torches and induction heaters can work really well in some cases. The limiting variable is how quick they can put heat into the work. On heavier castings, the heat can soak out of what you're working on about as fast as you put heat in. I can get away with the Mini-Ductor fot a lot of things, but the HF oxy-acetylene kit comes out when things don't cooperate.
Just using a brazing tip with oxy can move mountains. Go slow. Protect your eyes from sparks and UV. "Fearing a real torch" is a very healthy thing. Oxy is a force of nature.
-Ryan
CHI_Tool&Die
Well-known member
I have one set of metric 10-19 6pt ASD combination wrenches from Proto for all my stubborn and rusty fasteners. They work 80% of the time. I find the really rusty stuff is either going to be ugga dugga’d or extracted which is the other 20% of the time.
As some have said, your first purchase should be either an induction heater, or an OA torch set. Or both. You need a heat source sufficient to make the fastener red (or to liquefy it); this eliminates a propane or mapp torch; the mapp gas sold today is barely hotter than propane.
Then if this doesn't work, go from there. I typically don't deal with horrific rust anymore- other than on exhaust. And an OA torch alone takes care of this for me.
Then if this doesn't work, go from there. I typically don't deal with horrific rust anymore- other than on exhaust. And an OA torch alone takes care of this for me.
Dakotadadv8
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DIYer rust belt region 18 year old PU truck I use PB Blaster/Liquid Wrench, time, heat, impact wrench/wrench, breaker bar, repeat. Have not failed yet.
I definitely get that for stuck rusted stuff. I’m more looking for a tool that’d fit over a rusted fastener head that might not necessarily be stuck inside. I’m not entirely sure what the deal is but I’ve come across a few different bolts that have been rust swollen on the head but a pair of vise grips took out fine. Maybe a coated bolt that’s been chewed? I’m not sure. I’m definitely going to pick up an induction heater though. Maybe it’s also time to find someone willing to learn me on some OA skills.
I don't think an induction heater would do anything for that. It's more for breaking the corrosion bond.
You just have swollen nuts.
VolvoRyan
Well-known member
Yeah I realize that the heat won’t help my swollen nuts.
I’m just talking myself into tackling rusted **** I’d have not tried before.
I mean if it's really not seized you can keep using your vise grips and just replace the fastener. Or Hammer on a wrench/socket. Or whatever.
Kinda doesn't matter when it's not rust welded tight. That's where the heat comes in.
Heck if it's really not tight, just try the next size up in opposite standard. It might fit.
For example a 13mm on a 1/2" nut. 1/2" is 12.7mm. So a swollen 1/2 might make a 13 feel perfect.
Not many other places I could have a G rated conversation about swollen nuts… Not to mention that it’s the only place id be that would even talk about em.
I’d definitely hammer a socket on before most other options. I’m looking for something as an option for when there just isn’t room for that without ripping a bunch of other stuff off to make room. And yep I’ve used the other sizes many times on gross fasteners. But that’s usually when I can reach in to wire wheel it or at the very least bush it. Sometimes there is a nut or bolt that’s just barely within reach to begin with. I’ll admit this is really a limited issue but one I’d like to have some other options for. We all have limited time, if I can spend a little money and get a good set that’ll save me countless hours in the end it’d be worth it. I enjoy tinkering but when a 30 minute job turns to 8 hours because I have to pull the whole front end off to reach a stupid bracket boot I enjoy it far less. Not to mention it’d also help with just plain rounded ones.
I think you're asking for the impossible.
There isn't a specific wrench brand or type or size in the world that will solve this problem every time.
"Rust" does not have a standard. Sometimes, you do have to tear everything apart. That's just the fun of working on rusty stuff.
HannibalLecter
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Mac RBRT are taiwan, but this pattern (exactly the same) is available both in Facom flavor and Usag. Usag I believe are called profile X or sth like that. Mr subaru mentions it somewhere.
And I think they are under $200 !
And I think they are under $200 !
BTW no gripping wrench like an RBRT can help you on fully rounded. They need some form of a wall to bite into.
They also won't fit on swollen because they're a precise fit. There's barely tolerance for a layer of paint depending on the machining of the fastener. They're for soft and compromised corrosion, not built up pus.
A bolt extractor is what you need, but that requires hammering on. Or just try to dig in with the vise grips the way you've been doing.
I've already said it before, if it's not actually tight as you're claiming, then maybe the pus ones can be had with an oversized wrench. Maybe. Preferably with a grip feature of some kind.
But when it's bad it's bad, and you need to take the time. There's no magic solution.
They also won't fit on swollen because they're a precise fit. There's barely tolerance for a layer of paint depending on the machining of the fastener. They're for soft and compromised corrosion, not built up pus.
A bolt extractor is what you need, but that requires hammering on. Or just try to dig in with the vise grips the way you've been doing.
I've already said it before, if it's not actually tight as you're claiming, then maybe the pus ones can be had with an oversized wrench. Maybe. Preferably with a grip feature of some kind.
But when it's bad it's bad, and you need to take the time. There's no magic solution.
Unless it's going into a captive/blind thread, choosing to snap a rusty fastner is part of the process. In a lot of cases I want the corroded fastner gone, don't care if that means undone or snapped, as long as I can remove the part. It's not like I'm going to reuse severely corroded fasteners.
I don't have much use for open ended wrenches these days, a combination of long box wrenchs, flex handled ratchets and impacts means it's rare I'm trying to put anything more than holding load into an open end. Maybe 20 years ago when I had less sockets and more specialist stuff.
There are a lot of conversations going on here. For swollen, severely rusted hardware, I just wanted to throw in the use of the sawzall. Drilling, extractors, nut splitters, I’ve used them all. Battery powered sawzalls with hacksaw blades work super well. So too, battery grinders. Just saw or grind the head off.
I guess the point F121 is making, those of us who work on older corroded stuff have a range of tools and techniques we rely on. There’s no one right answer.
Good sockets and wrenches are a good start. We talked about good impacts. They help. Heat, penetrating oils, special tight fitting sockets.
I have found heat combined with penetrating oil, then waiting a day, then maybe more heat, works wonders on old machinery that I can’t simply saw apart or hammer on. Time is another technique you can try.
I guess the point F121 is making, those of us who work on older corroded stuff have a range of tools and techniques we rely on. There’s no one right answer.
Good sockets and wrenches are a good start. We talked about good impacts. They help. Heat, penetrating oils, special tight fitting sockets.
I have found heat combined with penetrating oil, then waiting a day, then maybe more heat, works wonders on old machinery that I can’t simply saw apart or hammer on. Time is another technique you can try.
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pelletman
Well-known member
I can't believe people are talking about open end wrenches and rusty fasteners. I have an induction heater that works awesome, also OA but I don't really like open flame if I can help it around cars.
These wrenches are the answer, particularly in no room situations. They also have DBE, Olsa tools
These wrenches are the answer, particularly in no room situations. They also have DBE, Olsa tools
rooster59
Well-known member
Bit off topic. If you know you’re doing a job on your stuff next week, start applying liquid wrench on the bolts now. I also use a big punch and a hammer for some strategic whacks. The only problems I’ve had after this are exhaust manifolds.
SquirrelsTools
Well-known member
There's always one of these .. and as far as induction set ups go.....I have absolutely NOT made one with a low powered halide ballast, welding cable and a high pressure thick walled copper tubing coil. After seeing and doing maintenance on a commercial setup at a shop. It absolutely does NOT push enough power on a variable switch to weld two 1in stainless bolts together on its highest setting....
Attachments
rust in the eye
Well-known member
So we are discussing rust swollen fasteners?
A wrench that fits on swollen fasteners is oversized and likely to slip once it crushes the rust.
When possible removing the scale and then perhaps resorting to a smaller size tool often works for me.
I do automotive work in the rusty part of the country so am no stranger to the situation.
Extra time and care is usually successful.
Removing as much of the rust as possible* FIRST then penetration oil, heat, impacting, etc. repeat, repeat, repeat. Once broken loose back and forth, back and forth, penetrating oil, etc.
* Especially on things like exhaust studs.
Wailing away with an impact on a badly rusted exhaust stud is a sure recipe for extra work.
I don't think any particular wrench is better suited for rusty fasteners. The new grippy ones still need a firm surface to bite onto.
A wrench that fits on swollen fasteners is oversized and likely to slip once it crushes the rust.
When possible removing the scale and then perhaps resorting to a smaller size tool often works for me.
I do automotive work in the rusty part of the country so am no stranger to the situation.
Extra time and care is usually successful.
Removing as much of the rust as possible* FIRST then penetration oil, heat, impacting, etc. repeat, repeat, repeat. Once broken loose back and forth, back and forth, penetrating oil, etc.
* Especially on things like exhaust studs.
Wailing away with an impact on a badly rusted exhaust stud is a sure recipe for extra work.
I don't think any particular wrench is better suited for rusty fasteners. The new grippy ones still need a firm surface to bite onto.
An ice pack might reduce the swelling. For sure, it will keep your thoughts pure.
If you have the time Kroil works wonders too.
I once found a 4" adjustable wrench that was so rusty the worm gear was frozen and caked. I tapped it with a hammer to get as much of the scale off as possible. I then dropped it into a cup of kroil and left it there. Every few weeks i'd pick it up, wipe it off and try to spin it. Eventually after 3 or 4 months it broke free and I could open and close the jaws. It's got enough backlash in the worm gear that it's almost useless (from the rust eating away at the base material), but I keep it around as a conversation piece.
I once found a 4" adjustable wrench that was so rusty the worm gear was frozen and caked. I tapped it with a hammer to get as much of the scale off as possible. I then dropped it into a cup of kroil and left it there. Every few weeks i'd pick it up, wipe it off and try to spin it. Eventually after 3 or 4 months it broke free and I could open and close the jaws. It's got enough backlash in the worm gear that it's almost useless (from the rust eating away at the base material), but I keep it around as a conversation piece.
Yea I’m talking just swollen up fastener heads. I was hoping the Olsa Extractor or Capri XT90 wrenches might be a viable option but it seems not really. Sure I can work an oversized wrench on but the minute the scale gives, it no longer fits at all. And would probably be likely to start stripping if it did bite.
I’m seeing that “ I don't think any particular wrench is better suited for rusty fasteners.” Is the final answer.
I guess I didn’t realize that they relied so heavily on tolerances. With that being said it almost seems as these types would be nearly useless on really rusty stuff. Given the uneven surface on super rusty fasteners, I could see running into a no size fitting scenario.
It might be a futile search and one not worth the effort given the limited use case. But this conversation has definitely given me a lot
of food for thought. Especially when it comes to induction heaters and gripping wrenches. I almost picked up the Craftsman OD wrenches on impulse while at Lowe’s today. But figured I’d be better off putting that towards the USAG or Mac.
Like I said, you're looking for a single solution to differing problems. There's corroded away rust then there's exploded pus rust and then there's seized together ie rust welded rust. And of course varying degrees of it.
There's no wench you can buy to cover all that. Those bitey wrenches are for when you don't have much of a corner left. RBRT/Mac says 60% rounded with the open end and 80% rounded with the box end. That's not built up rust. It's the opposite.
I guess my thinking was that once I’d gotten in there with an oversized wrench and failed but knocked the crud off it’s no longer the same size. And more times than not it’s also not any specific size but something all new.
But like I said it’s all given me food for thought and makes me think I should probably add some type of damaged fastener wrench and good heat source to my box. Especially considering our cars are “getting old” for NY.
Yes.
2ndGearRubber
Well-known member
If you can't get the original size wrench on, due to rust expansion, you just need to wiggle the old stuff off.
Start two sizes up, put on box end, wiggle the loose bit off, downsize, repeat. 12pt actually works better for this IMO, but obviously 6pt for dealing with the fastener at its final size.
Looked at them, and find it nice that they are cr-mo vs. cr-v like most wrenches these days. There are a lot that goes into metallurgy, but IN GENERAL, cr-mo will make for a "tougher" tool than cr-v.
Many times, when companies make two versions of the same tool (cr-mo and cr-v), the cr-mo will be slightly more expensive - though there's debate about whether the price diff is REALLY caused by cost vs. consumer perception of quality (thereby allowing for premium pricing).