WTF do we have to do to prevent Impact Gun overkill?
- Thread starter HoosierBuddy
- Start date
So, what do they do?
I hope you're just talking about the wheel lugs. Even then... that's not good. Is it anywhere in PA? I'd like to know the location so I can avoid it if possible.
Charles (in GA)
Well-known member
All too common of a problem. Its rare that anyone other than myself mounts wheels on my car. The one small family tire shop I deal with and thats all. They use a 4 way to install them, and even then, when I get home, the wheels all come loose and get re-tightened, using criss cross pattern (the tire shop does this also), and then I torque them with a torque wrench. I flat refuse to drive my cars unless I know I can get the wheel off in an emergency on the road.
Charles
Charles
2chipped
Well-known member
This is life as we know it,if a shop does it right they're called cheaters who need to pay off their fancy tools. This type of thread comes up all the time.
Omg Becky look@ that $ bill,it is so big this guy must have fancy tools and a new boat.
Then this ^^^^^thread comes up these monkees @ this discount place messed my vehicle up...but he had no tools.
You have no idea how this pisses off service people who give a damn about "your vehicle /house, etc....then are told your price is way to high.
There are a-holes in every profession, and there are people who care.
When i pull up to my local tire place the "monkees"ask what I want done because I tip 1$ every time I need air and 5$ for tire replacement.
If you call four different places for the best price..you will spend more time and $, then establishing a "relationship" with them.
I have been installing fencing for people with more money than anyone on this board....also some with much less than most on here.
To recap;people of all walks of life are idiots and nice people...but a small tip, or simple recognition will have them recognize you.
Sent from my Milestone PLUS using Tapatalk
Omg Becky look@ that $ bill,it is so big this guy must have fancy tools and a new boat.
Then this ^^^^^thread comes up these monkees @ this discount place messed my vehicle up...but he had no tools.
You have no idea how this pisses off service people who give a damn about "your vehicle /house, etc....then are told your price is way to high.
There are a-holes in every profession, and there are people who care.
When i pull up to my local tire place the "monkees"ask what I want done because I tip 1$ every time I need air and 5$ for tire replacement.
If you call four different places for the best price..you will spend more time and $, then establishing a "relationship" with them.
I have been installing fencing for people with more money than anyone on this board....also some with much less than most on here.
To recap;people of all walks of life are idiots and nice people...but a small tip, or simple recognition will have them recognize you.
Sent from my Milestone PLUS using Tapatalk
toolmaker1
Well-known member
Every time a thread like this comes up, and all the comments flood in about how they check to see what the mechanic is using. I can't help but wonder. If you are wise enough to know the "right" way, why are you having others do the job for you...
You have a tire mounting machine and a road force spin balancer in your garage at home? Doubt it !
Gary S
Well-known member
My solution for the past 30 years is to never allow any shop to touch my lugnuts. When I buy new tires, I remove the wheels myself at home, put them in a pickup and haul them to the tire shop. When they have the new tires installed on my wheels, I take them home and put them back on my vehicles.
When I have a flat, I repair it at home to avoid any problems.
When I have a flat, I repair it at home to avoid any problems.
rlitman
Well-known member
>My solution for the past 30 years is to never allow any shop to touch my lugnuts
That's not so easy when the annual "safety" inspection around here includes taking the wheels off. You bet I'm standing around with my torque wrench.
If I had the room for an overarm tire machine, I'd already own one.
I know of one "chain" of shops that insists that the service writers hand write the lug-nut torque spec, AND the color of the correct torque stick on every ticket. Funny how clean every torque stick in the rack looks hanging on the wall.
That's not so easy when the annual "safety" inspection around here includes taking the wheels off. You bet I'm standing around with my torque wrench.
If I had the room for an overarm tire machine, I'd already own one.
I know of one "chain" of shops that insists that the service writers hand write the lug-nut torque spec, AND the color of the correct torque stick on every ticket. Funny how clean every torque stick in the rack looks hanging on the wall.
slip knot
Well-known member
I laugh everytime the tire guy gets his torque wrench out. He hammers away on them then goes around the truck and clicks it at 120Lbs. all thats telling me is at least 120 but it could be 300 as well. all depends on how high the shop runs the air pressure.
Having a torque wrench and knowing how to use it are two very different things.
Having a torque wrench and knowing how to use it are two very different things.
You have a tire mounting machine and a road force spin balancer in your garage at home? Doubt it !
I have a mounter. Lol Have to ride to work to balance them...
However, I also have jacks, and jack stands to take the tires off my ride to take them to be serviced... We have plenty of people come to the shop I'm currently at to get tires done, and they bring JUST the wheels and tires.
And you don't need a fancy machine to mount tires, and they make tools to balance tires at home that do a very good job.
redwrench60
Well-known member
It's hard to please people. If I take my time, use a torque wrench, mind specs, really do it right and charge accordingly Then I'm "too expensive" If I hurry through it with my 900 ft.lb impact to save time ignoring all else but the clock then I'm a "hack" You can't have it both ways!
tbobbo
Banned
I also knew a guy who used ether to seat tough tire beads for 40 years. He never had a problem. I repeat I KNEW a guy. You can get lucky, but for how long? It is a documented fact that antiseize will compromise torque of a fastener. No one will use antiseize on a engine build for this fact, but the same guy will put it on his lugnuts. It's more dangerous if your wheel falls off than if your engine goes bad, yet so many people think it's fine.
michael murder
Well-known member
- Joined
- May 30, 2009
- Messages
- 284
Someone I worked with had a recall on their mid-block gasket, the mechanic impacted it all back together and broke three bolts off in the block and called it good.
My tire outrage is over tire monkeys overfilling tires. I don't like taking a corner and, because the tires are so hard, spin out to face oncoming traffic.
My tire outrage is over tire monkeys overfilling tires. I don't like taking a corner and, because the tires are so hard, spin out to face oncoming traffic.
bgott
Well-known member
I bet y'all don't think about the way those shops using torque wrenches do it, do you? They run the lugs on with the impact, just like most others, then they run around the car with a ten year old torque wrench that has seen thousands of cars and never seen a recalibration. If you are really paying attention you'll notice that they use the same setting on a Honda and a three-quarter ton truck. But, it looks good, doesn't it?
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MattPersman
Well-known member
thank you! people want this work done for ultra friggin cheap then will complain to no end when a free tire rotate is not performed with a $500 snap on torque wrench. all kinds of funny comments... kicking in the nuts to legal pursuit to "warping" rotors, funny stuff. hopefully nascar will start to torque lug nuts on the pit stops so nothing goes wrong.
I ride with customers with a complaint that say I would love to bring it here regularly because you do good work but are too expensive. people are willing to pay less for known lesser work.
there was one customer I can think of that got free tire rotations at some small shop but drove to our shop after words everytime because all the lug nuts were loose and needed to be tightened. really everytime. but still went to the place because it was free.
ch:i always say we are not going to be the cheapest in town, we have tile floors in our service lane even, nice waiting area, etc, etc.
bottom line is your tire guy is gonna do what he/she wants to do, if that is use a torque stick, straight impact on 10, torque wrench that may or may not be calibrated, 1/4 ratchet, tighten them at all. there are outside factors, could be being hurried from higher ups, could be interrupted 6 times will working on your vehicle and forget to tighten something. this is the real world things happen I would rather have it too tight on my wheels then fall off
i know this is garage journal and everyone can build a space shuttle from scratch at their house with tools they already own, but in the rest of the world how many people change a tire if they get a flat they pull out one of the 2 or more cell phones in the car, call someone like you, or roadside and get it done for them, or just get it towed somewhere to have it done.
BlindViper
Well-known member
The only way to prevent retards from fubaring up your lugs is to keep your lugs away from the retards!
For tires I go to Les Schwab tire centers up here in the pacific northwest ever since I've owned my own vehicles and always watch the guys doing the work. They always use torque wrenches, I guess I'm lucky. Of course I rotate my own tires even though they offer it for free, but only because they are usually busy and I could do it faster and don't have to leave the house.
Every time a thread like this comes up, and all the comments flood in about how they check to see what the mechanic is using. I can't help but wonder. If you are wise enough to know the "right" way, why are you having others do the job for you...
For me it's alignment that I cannot do. But I had to make
sure that the lugnuts are tightened to the spec.
I hate this too, and when I do have to have tire shops change them I request spec tightening with a torque wrench. I also typically redo them about a week later.
I know why they do it though. They are balancing several factors:
1) people in general want one thing: CHEAP! Sad but true. Cheap = fast.
2) the vast majority will see the effects of undertightening more than over. Just because they never remove the lugnuts themselves. If lugnuts loosen, they'll see that, and they'll ***** or take their business elsewhere.
3) most people don't change their own tires. But even if they did, most people won't need a roadside tire change these days. I personally have only had to do one in the last 15 years.
All of these things help to allow the shops to do it the wrong way. Its up to them to decide to do it right anyway.
I know why they do it though. They are balancing several factors:
1) people in general want one thing: CHEAP! Sad but true. Cheap = fast.
2) the vast majority will see the effects of undertightening more than over. Just because they never remove the lugnuts themselves. If lugnuts loosen, they'll see that, and they'll ***** or take their business elsewhere.
3) most people don't change their own tires. But even if they did, most people won't need a roadside tire change these days. I personally have only had to do one in the last 15 years.
All of these things help to allow the shops to do it the wrong way. Its up to them to decide to do it right anyway.
Packard V8
Well-known member
Yes, agree, lubricants do affect torque. But WRONG as to their not being used on engine builds. Lubricants are used on the fasteners on every professional race engine build. Get the facts. ARP, the best fasteners one can use, says:It is a documented fact that antiseize will compromise torque of a fastener. No one will use antiseize on a engine build for this fact, but the same guy will put it on his lugnuts. It's more dangerous if your wheel falls off than if your engine goes bad, yet so many people think it's fine.
As they say, your results may vary. But after working with the ARP guys on several race engine fastener projects, they've convinced me dry torque is always going to be all over the place. They've measured stretch and it varies as much as 25% at the same dry torque reading. The only way to get consistent fastener clamping is to use a lubricant and adjust the torque accordingly. I've used anti-sieze for fifty years and will use it on every lug nut for as long as I'm doing them.
jack vines
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Stop going to ****** shops and you'll stop having ****** results. Not to mention most guys doing tire work get paid minimum wage.
For those of you using torque sticks, ensure you use them right. Different hose lengths will result in different torque values. 25 feet and under for 3/8 hose.
For those of you using torque sticks, ensure you use them right. Different hose lengths will result in different torque values. 25 feet and under for 3/8 hose.
PBCampbell
Well-known member
Out of curiousity Mr. Vines, what would you suggest to add to the stated torque value(for lug nuts) when using basic anti seize. I've always lubed the wheel studs for as long as I can remember, but never gave much thought that I need to adjust the torque. I'm not racing or doing any "high performance" driving, This is just on cars and light duty trucks. Thanks, Patrick
Sorry, but I would never let you work on my car. This is total ********. If you consider yourself a hack mechanic who will take any possible shortcut to beat a book rate on a job, keep this up. If you consider yourself a professional, start using a torque wrench.
More and more cars are using alloy materials for studs that will simply not tolerate even slight over-torquing. And under-torquing is equally dangerous. This is simply not a situation where 20 ft lbs here or there does not matter. There have been more than enough big dollar law suits so that almost all large shops will require their employees use either torque sticks or a torque wrench, and the trend seems to be towards less acceptance of the torque sticks. Get with the program or get sued.
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sberry
Banned
I install all the time with impact. We use penetrating spray, run them slowly till they snug and hit them with the gun on a setting we understand, watch the rotation of the socket, a guy can get a feel for it and come really close with experience. The dumb azz at the tire store is another matter, zip them on fast and dry, they seize, fine threads make the problem worse. I don't like them guys doing tires either, we take the wheels off and take them in if getting new rubber.
W650Mike
Well-known member
Not to worry Skyline - He'll get to buy a set of rotors someday.
That's the least of my worries. He could get someone killed.
I had a set of tires installed at local tire store, and about a week later, one of these 33x12.5 sized tires came off my Jeep while I was going about 40mph. The studs were fine, but the nuts fell off. The wheel and tire went across the road and hit an oncoming van. Damaged the front bumper, grill, hood, and roof, and caved in the windshield. I was very happy the driver was fine...(but totally traumatized!)
I also had another tire store severly damage three of five studs on one of my wheels by over tightening. I did not realize untill I got home that I only had two lug nuts holding a wheel on. My car was immobilized for several days while I waited for the dealership to get the replacement studs, and I had to also get a new set of lug nuts, (about $65 for the Rays lug nuts I was using).
Believe me, I learned my lesson the hard way, but I'm sure there are many folks who have much worse stories to tell. Fortunately, when my wheel hit that van, it was only a lot of property damage. I could just see the tire monkey in court, at the $10M wrongful death negligence lawsuit. He'd be trying to explain to the jury how he does not need to use a torque wrench, (as the vehicle manufacurer recommends in their factory service manual), becase he has such a good touch that can feel exactly how tight his impact gun is making a lug nut. Yeah right.
dailydriven1
Well-known member
I have had many issues with over tightened lugnuts both cars I have bought. (From dealers and personal sellers) and cars brought into the shop I work at and it makes everything a PITA!.. however our tires shop and everyone who works for the company is required to use a 50lb torque stick and then torque each wheel nut by hand to monufacturer spec with a torque wrench and then have eache wheel double checked by another person before it leaves the shop... take about 15 to 20 second for two people to torque a car
Justin1776
Well-known member
True, but unfortunately this guy was installing the wheels. He was new....to everything it seems
Murphy4570
Well-known member
Nope, not ********. Nor am I a "hack". In my years of working, I have seen a tech use a torque wrench only once for lugnuts. I never saw anyone use one or use torque sticks at the dealership I used to work at, nor have I seen anyone use them in the shops I've been in since. I stopped using my torque sticks daily about a year ago. I still use them on German cars, those lug bolts will not tolerate over tightening at all.
I'm not saying it is right or wrong, just stating the facts and my personal experience in the field.
Unlike your personal experiences, I do not work at a tire store. Calm down there, sparky.
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TheCarbideRat
Well-known member
I work at a tire shop, national chain.
Like you i have been through the anti-seize threads deal, long and contentious they are, no? lol. My advice is to use no more than an apple seed size amount per lug or stud. Too much anti-seize CAN result in a safety issue so we never use it. What we DO, in the case of corrosion is use WD-40 on the lugs and that gets r done and the motorist will have an easier time getting his wheel off in a tire emergency.
We know, believe me we know lug-nut rage. On the radar.
I torque most wheels (passenger vehicle / light truck) to a value somewhere near 100 ftlb. I need to allow for deformation. corrosion, and electrolysis so yes I DO!! go above spec. SORRYEEEEEEE!!!! but it's just a bit and YOU, Mr. Dont Overtighten My Nuts won't even know it!
Have a nice day.TheCarbideRat
Well-known member
No comment on what the other guys at my shop do.
TheCarbideRat
Well-known member
Torque sticks. Nope.
I have spoken.
I have spoken
.TheCarbideRat
Well-known member
Interesting. Very interesting...
Not that it matters but my shop could never beat that time, even if we ran over to our boxes to get the tools.
dailydriven1
Well-known member
Most of the time the torque wrench and what not is right next to me at hand on a roll cart and someone else is in a bay next to me for a double check when it needs to be done... maybe a little off on 20 sec but I can still beat flatrate time on four tires even with doing a double torque check
TheCarbideRat
Well-known member
That's cool. I would probably even prefer working at your shop over mine, looks like.
Have a good one.
TCRat.
Have a good one.
TCRat.
dailydriven1
Well-known member
Sometimes all of the rules and requirements can seem a little rediculus but w.e like even if someone verifies the wrench setting and watches you torque all the nuts they still have to physically check them all again.. but it is what it is have to follw them regardless
TheCarbideRat
Well-known member
Yep and there is a reason for everything. If we even know what that reason is, or if we agree with it or not can be immaterial.
I almost missed tightening a drainplug about a month ago...visions of the anti-christ...
I almost missed tightening a drainplug about a month ago...visions of the anti-christ...
dailydriven1
Well-known member
No doubt I hear you there we just had a guy follow all he procudures on a oil change but forgot to put oil in the car and killed the engine... oh we have to do double checks on oil drain plugs and oil filters and levels... I understand why the rules are there and follow them accordingly they just can seem ridiculous sometimes lol
TheCarbideRat
Well-known member
They are ridiculous >originating from the ridiculous mistakes that were made haha. I wouldn't mind painting drainplugs with a shot of spraypaint when done, that way we can also detect tampering.