WTH can I find this Porsche specialty tool?

[Spider Curry]

A friend just called me to ask if I'd ever seen a certain socket end that Porsche uses on 993 and maybe 964 cars. Its for a shallow "inhex" bolt head, and it has a spike coming out of the end of the hex bit that keeps the bit in position and prevents stripping out the shallow head. Hope this pic uploads, it'll show you the bolt head and maybe that'll be enough for the tool junkies here to point us in the right direction.

 

[454ragtop]

Is there some reason a normal hex bit wouldn't work? They work fine for every other hex SHCS. Obviously will require your complete attention to keep the bit square to prevent it from camming out.

 

[Skin]

Hex also have tamper proof versions although you don't see them much.

 

[The Cobbler]

a proper sized hex , a bench grinder with water to cool the bit, & some patience

 

[Spider Curry]

Is there some reason a normal hex bit wouldn't work? They work fine for every other hex SHCS. Obviously will require your complete attention to keep the bit square to prevent it from camming out.

Thats the ish, in a nutshell. The local Porsche wiz (a very accomplished guy who has a very large shop and also manages tens of millions of dollars in P cars for collectors) has warned my buddy to be careful for that very reason. My friend can't really get the right position on the bolt (these attach his seat rails to the pan in his car), and I think he's already slipped the bit a couple of times. He doesn't want to risk any further wear, so he just wants to buy the right tool.

I told him to contact McM-C since the tool is probably a cousin to their ball-end hex bits, and I don't know if he got through to them yet.

 

[Spider Curry]

a proper sized hex , a bench grinder with water to cool the bit, & some patience

If it was me, I would just get an angle grinder and put two flat sides on each bolt, grab an open end wrench and be done with it. Thats how I got the cheap pot metal seat belt bolts out of my old F body decades ago.

 

[Spider Curry]

Hex also have tamper proof versions although you don't see them much.

The last time I saw those "torx with titz' bolts, they were in the back of an old school cable box. A punch made short work of the metal *** in each bolt head, and then a standard torx would do the job.

 

[Nero]

A friend just called me to ask if I'd ever seen a certain socket end that Porsche uses on 993 and maybe 964 cars. Its for a shallow "inhex" bolt head, and it has a spike coming out of the end of the hex bit that keeps the bit in position and prevents stripping out the shallow head. Hope this pic uploads, it'll show you the bolt head and maybe that'll be enough for the tool junkies here to point us in the right direction.

Try here: you'll have to do some searching though. https://porsche.snapon.com

 

[Speed-Racer]

I would get new bolts and not risk a stripped bolt.

http://www.classic9leathershop.com/...-928-oem-type-low-head-yellow-zinc-1985-1998/

 

[Dingleburry]

One of these?
All i remember from these were made in germany.
But a search seems they call it a inhex with pilot pin
Or pilot tip socket
Ill see if a brand name is on these ones. They are at work though and im not back till wednesday. It came with a new german piece of industrial equipment.
Stahlwille makes some
Imma guess these ones are zebra. Most other tools are zebra and gedore in the tool kit.

 

[jimmyin3D]

One of these?

Do they have a special name? And I assume they are metric sized.?

 

[Dingleburry]

Do they have a special name? And I assume they are metric sized.?

Sorry i updated the post with more info
Yes they are metric. From germany

 

[gdudik]

https://www.samstagsales.com/stahlwille.htm

Scroll a LOOONG way down. Called a hex but with pilot tip.

 

[Danglerb]

I can just imagine the face of a typical 993 owner when he finds out you, punched the pin down, cut a slot, or put in a non Porsche replacement bolt, and since its to retain the seat messing with it must include some serious liability risk.

 

[WittHay]

I call them pilot tip hex sockets. A European thing. The one in the picture is a Proto 17mm specially made for a US equipment manufacturer that uses Italian parts in a assembled in USA machine.

If you are careful use the shortest best hex socket you can find and a breaker bar. The pilot hex bit socket doesn't really help much if the bolt is stubborn, Welding a nut on to remove is usually the only option

Stahlwille should have the right size for German stuff

 

[matt_i]

I don't get the utility of the drilled recess and how it affects torque on or off? The only thing that makes sense to me is that its for assembly automation and the pilot tip keeps the socket head screw from falling off...

If its a low-head design one definitely wants to put pressure down the long axis. The go-to hex bits for me are Snap-Ons, these have outperformed every other type I've used.

 

[Spider Curry]

One of these?

THAT, my friend, is the ticket. You just won this Saturday. Take the day off.

If you happen to see those wrenches when you're at work, please let me know if you find a manufacturer's mark.

 

[Spider Curry]

https://www.samstagsales.com/stahlwille.htm

Scroll a LOOONG way down. Called a hex but with pilot tip.

Excellent, thanks.

 

[Spider Curry]

I don't get the utility of the drilled recess and how it affects torque on or off? The only thing that makes sense to me is that its for assembly automation and the pilot tip keeps the socket head screw from falling off...

If its a low-head design one definitely wants to put pressure down the long axis.

Since these are used to hold seat rails down, I would imagine access and angle are a bit constrained so the pilot bit would help during assembly. Its been several years since I've worked in or around my friend's Porsches, but I seem to recall nothing on those cars is very convenient.

 

[Spider Curry]

I can just imagine the face of a typical 993 owner when he finds out you, punched the pin down, cut a slot, or put in a non Porsche replacement bolt, and since its to retain the seat messing with it must include some serious liability risk.

Good thing none of that will be done on this car.

 

[anythingyoucanimagine]

What size does he need?

I have several 6mm and a 10mm like what Dingleburry posted. I'm a BMW guy and I could swear these came out of a factory tool kit somewhere along the way. I'll Google around a little bit and see if I can find something. I've also owned W123 Mercedes, BMW 2002's, e21's, e28's, e30, e36, e39... And VW's & Audi's. **** and a few Volvo wagons too.

I'll Google around and see if I can find what came in what factory tool kits. Maybe he can go to a pick-n-pull and have one tomorrow. If you guys were closer I'd give you a couple. I have a bunch (only size 6mm & 10mm) so they must have come out of something fairly common.

 

[Spider Curry]

What size does he need?

I have several 6mm and a 10mm like what Dingleburry posted. I'm a BMW guy and I could swear these came out of a factory tool kit somewhere along the way. I'll Google around a little bit and see if I can find something. I've also owned W123 Mercedes, BMW 2002's, e21's, e28's, e30, e36, e39... And VW's & Audi's. **** and a few Volvo wagons too.

I'll Google around and see if I can find what came in what factory tool kits. Maybe he can go to a pick-n-pull and have one tomorrow. If you guys were closer I'd give you a couple. I have a bunch (only size 6mm & 10mm) so they must have come out of something fairly common.

That would be great, thanks.

 

[ttpete]

Those have been around on German stuff for over 50 years. The hex is shallower than normal and there's a hole in the bottom to receive the *** on the end of the driver. In a way, they're a PITA because they tend to strip out easier than the regular ones.

I've always taken a standard hex key and ground the end flat for maximum grip and carefully removed them and replaced with a full depth fastener.

 

[anythingyoucanimagine]

That would be great, thanks.

Does he need 6mm or 10mm? When I say factory toolkit I mean (for my cars) the toolkit in the trunk that comes in the car. For you P car people I guess that would be the factory tool kit that comes in the hood. Only asking/mentioning because the factory only provides limited tools for the vehicle. If he needs something other than 6mm or 10mm maybe Amazon Prime or hunting around junkyard might have better luck. I'll keep looking and see.

The ones I have are stamped W. Germany so that narrows it down a bit. Not 1970's BMW 2002's because I have few of them and never needed/seen that tool for those cars.

Maybe a euro 6-cyl e21? Or maybe e21 320is usa car, maybe an e28 (pulled many diesel crankshafts way back when) or maybe it was the Mercedes W123. Also could be something like a BMW e30 sunroof tool. But definitely not bmw e36 or e39 because the wall was down by then and all those factory tools just say Germany on them.

 

[toolenthusiast]

It’s still a trunk, even if it’s in the front.

 

[Mr. T]

Buy a surface grinder and make your own!

 

[Superbec]

get some wera's .. and forget about it.

 

[anythingyoucanimagine]

Do they have a special name? And I assume they are metric sized.?

Getting back to Spider Curry:
I believe it's called DIN 6912. I believe the ones I have are from an early 80's Mercedes W123 coupe or wagon. I believe they are the mechanical wrenches to manually open and close the windows and electric sunroof if the motor dies.

They are also used on some BMW motorcycles and may come in the factory tool kit on those too.

Lots of the bmw guys (I believe airhead bikes) call the pilot tip a "***". Germans sometimes refer to them as "inhex".

These guys samstagsales sell Stahlwille brand:
https://www.samstagsales.com/stahlwille.htm
(search "inhex", it's about 1/2-2/3 down the page

AMF makes a set:
https://memphistn.global-free-class...ric-hex-key-set-with-pilot-tip-it6132896.html
I guess that's also that same company samstag sales.

I believe Lisle corp sells them but I could not find part numbers or a link. I also believe that you can get certain sizes as BMW Motorrad factory tools for the BMW bikes.

These guys: KC Tool sell various sizes;
https://www.kctoolco.com/gedore-42-z-3-hexagon-allen-key-3-mm/


Seat rails can't be that much torque. Another suggestion is Horrible Freight's $10 security bit set:
https://www.harborfreight.com/100-pc-security-bit-set-with-case-68457.html
The security bit set will have female holes in the center. If you have the right diameter wire rod you could use 5-min epoxy and try to make one.

 

[Spider Curry]

get some wera's .. and forget about it.

Ball-end inhex won't work in this application. The ends would be larger than the pilot holes so you'd have to machine the ball down to a simple pilot dowel end in order for it to fit.

While that is easy enough, I forgot to mention that besides being the archetypical Porsche owner ("Porsche shouldn't build water-cooled cars!") he's an engineer, so nothing is easy that seems easy. He'd have to take measurements from one of the bolt head holes and have them drawn up on paper in three dimensions, then find someone who had the proper machine to grind those ends to factory tolerances, but of course before doing that he'd have to research the metal used in those Wera keys and see if they would stand up to both the grinding as well as the intended future usage post-grindage.

He can be a real source of entertainment when I'm helping him on projects, is what I'm saying.

 

[Spider Curry]

Does he need 6mm or 10mm?

This bolt is a 6MM inhex.

 

[Spider Curry]

Getting back to Spider Curry:
I believe it's called DIN 6912. I believe the ones I have are from an early 80's Mercedes W123 coupe or wagon. I believe they are the mechanical wrenches to manually open and close the windows and electric sunroof if the motor dies.

They are also used on some BMW motorcycles and may come in the factory tool kit on those too.

Lots of the bmw guys (I believe airhead bikes) call the pilot tip a "***". Germans sometimes refer to them as "inhex".

These guys samstagsales sell Stahlwille brand:
https://www.samstagsales.com/stahlwille.htm
(search "inhex", it's about 1/2-2/3 down the page

AMF makes a set:
https://memphistn.global-free-class...ric-hex-key-set-with-pilot-tip-it6132896.html
I guess that's also that same company samstag sales.

I believe Lisle corp sells them but I could not find part numbers or a link. I also believe that you can get certain sizes as BMW Motorrad factory tools for the BMW bikes.

These guys: KC Tool sell various sizes;
https://www.kctoolco.com/gedore-42-z-3-hexagon-allen-key-3-mm/


Seat rails can't be that much torque. Another suggestion is Horrible Freight's $10 security bit set:
https://www.harborfreight.com/100-pc-security-bit-set-with-case-68457.html
The security bit set will have female holes in the center. If you have the right diameter wire rod you could use 5-min epoxy and try to make one.

Wow... fantastic detective work. Thank you!

You really threw him a curve ball there, because his P-owner soul will be calling for the proper German tools, while the penny pinching engineer in his brain will be yelling "buy Harbor Fright!"

Seriously, every time I talk about getting new tools he starts going on about how I should just go to Horror Fraught because the tools are such a bargain. I told him nearly every single thing I bought from them has failed/broken. The lone exceptions are my drift pin kit (how do you screw that up?) and my bench grinder. Of course, I haven't used the bench grinder yet so it hasn't had the chance to fail...

Recently, I told him I needed to buy some new adjustable wrenches because the adjusters on a couple of mine had seized up completely and no chemical or technique I've tried yet has worked at freeing them. Of course he said "HF has a great deal those wrenches, $20 for a big set of 5, you should just get over yourself and your online experts and buy those!" (He thought it was ridiculous that I have expensive Wera Zyklop ratchet sets when perfectly acceptable substitutes are available at HF for 10 percent of the cost, and when they break you can buy 9 more sets for the same price as the Wera)

I really enjoyed the moment when I said, "Where do you think I bought these?"

 

[Dingleburry]

Sorry op i did not get back sooner

Getting back to Spider Curry:
I believe it's called DIN 6912.

You were so close, unless din 6912 is the same, but the ones i got are DIN 6911. There is no brand on any of them.
They call them "DIN 6911 Hexagon Key with Guide Point"
Theres only one listed on amazon.com
But many on the european amazons.

Just found a din 6911 without the guide point.
So idk
Thats all i got

 

[Spider Curry]

Sorry op i did not get back sooner



You were so close, unless din 6912 is the same, but the ones i got are DIN 6911. There is no brand on any of them.
They call them "DIN 6911 Hexagon Key with Guide Point"
Theres only one listed on amazon.com
But many on the european amazons.

Just found a din 6911 without the guide point.
So idk
Thats all i got

You're a phenomenal help. Thanks for all your efforts.

 

[garfieldzzz]

Its a shallow cap head bolt with a key guide as mentioned above DIN 6912 https://www.schrauben-lexikon.de/download/t_6912.pdf

DIN 6911 is the norm for the key, 6912 for the fastners