XHHW-2 safe for conduit?

[njccmd2002]

XHHW-2 safe for conduit? Need help wiring dettach garage

I post rarely, but I do when I can’t find answer. I recently started to build a 30x40 brick garage. When 7 months passed, and it was not finished I fired the contractor.

He attempted to install electricity, conduit was buried 7 inches below ground. I had to dig the conduit because it needs at least 18 inches to pass inspection.

He used XHHW-2 3 awg cable. It’s expensive. About 40 feet

I contacted an electrical company to redo the dig finish the job. They won’t use the XHHW-2 cable. They are telling me it won’t pass inspection. And want to bring their own THHN cable. Charge me almost 1500 usd.

Not questioning the price. But the cable, I know I have to call my city inspector. But are they taking me for a ride on the cable?

Everywhere google takes me it’s ok to use XHHW-2 in conduit, I’m confused.. what are u guys using. He’s reasoning it’s because it will overheat

 

[Bert_]

XHHW-2 is for use in conduit. I pull aluminum XHHW into conduit very regularly it is what it's designed for.

 

[njccmd2002]

So most likely this company wants to install THHN why? Charge me more? Or XHHW is heavier and don’t want to fool with it? That’s almost 250 in cable to throw away, lol. I will call inspector tomorrow..

Thnx

 

[Bert_]

Probably just not what they are used to and they would rather sell you wire than use somebody elses

 

[wyliesdiesels]

What size breaker and what type of xhhw? Cu or al?

 

[teamextreme]

Are they proposing the same size THHN? Maybe it's the size that they have the issue with? Is the XHHW copper or aluminum? XHHW is often used in aluminum wire, so #3 Al wouldn't be good for 100A like #3 cu would be. Is that the plan, 100A?

 

[njccmd2002]

Xhhw is copper and very heavy. They proposed same size thhn 3. I not sure what size breaker he left. I think 30 amps. No the guy specifically said service entrance cable will not pass inspection. It gets too hot for conduit

Here is the cable after pulled

Here is why i pulled it

 

[Norcal]

Nothing right about that project, the worst panel made today, SER cable underground, improper burial depth, the panel is not a code violation but Eaton BR is what I call “Zinsco II”. Edit: There needs to be more information the feeder is screwy or the branch circuit wiring is screwy.

 

[pattenp]

Type SE Style R (SER) is not approved for underground use by the NEC because of the bare ground conductor. You can use individual conductors that are XHHW-2 underground because they will all be insulated including the ground.

Edit: XHHW has a voltage rating of 1000V in sizes #8 and larger. THWN is 600V across all sizes.

 

[Bert_]

That is SER as stated above, not allowed underground. For conduit you need individual conductors. XHHW in aluminum would be my personal choice.

Nothing right about that project, the worst panel made today, SER cable underground, improper burial depth, the panel is not a code violation but Eaton BR is what I call “Zinsco II”. Edit: There needs to be more information the feeder is screwy or the branch circuit wiring is screwy.

You missed the bonded neutral on a 4 wire feeder, or maybe that what you were hinting at with the last part.

 

[njccmd2002]

Thanks for the advice. So I would need 4 cables right. The ground does not have to be 3awg.

The panel passed inspection by the city... what should I do to fix it? Or should I leave it alone. I would have to order new cable..

Why should I get aluminum? It’s lighter? It’s 2 inch conduit...

So the ground conductor needs to be insulated?

The garage is grounded. So I need 3 3awg wires and 1 5awg wires?

Sorry for the stupid questions.....

 

[FordTruckWench]

Type SE Style R (SER) is not approved for underground use by the NEC because of the bare ground conductor. You can use individual conductors that are XHHW-2 underground because they will all be insulated including the ground.

Hmmm, is there a chance the individual conductors in that SE cable are properly marked...

(Probably not - don't see any marking in the picture. Plus the near impossibility of stripping 40 feet of the gray jacket without nicking the insulation of the individual conductors.)

 

[njccmd2002]

Hmmm, is there a chance the individual conductors in that SE cable are properly marked...

(Probably not - don't see any marking in the picture. Plus the near impossibility of stripping 40 feet of the gray jacket without nicking the insulation of the individual conductors.)

like strip the jacket, and see. I can do that, lol. if i cant use cable as is, and cant sell it, because its already been posted for sale, for a week, ill give it a try, or i can see if the stripped section has any markings.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

OMGosh Another cluster f*ck.

Nothing right about that project, the worst panel made today, SER cable underground, improper burial depth, the panel is not a code violation but Eaton BR is what I call “Zinsco II”. Edit: There needs to be more information the feeder is screwy or the branch circuit wiring is screwy.

I think the 220 plug label on the 10/3 NM-b says it all about the electrician.

its 240v and receptacle not plug.... hmmmm

Thanks for the advice. So I would need 4 cables right. The ground does not have to be 3awg.

good thing you fired him. He messed up in multiple ways. you should actually get your money back or make him fix it if you paid him.

yes you need 4 wires. Gauge depends on feeding breaker in feeding panel. If 100a, you need #3 cu with #8 ground or #1 al with #6 ground. All must be insulated. the conductors for the hot legs and neutral can be taped on each end. The ground wire needs to be green jacketed.

ground wires do not need to be same size as ungrounded conductors(hot legs).

Use table 250.122 to size your ground wire.

The panel passed inspection by the city... what should I do to fix it? Or should I leave it alone. I would have to order new cable..

That panel should NOT have passed. It has a bonded neutral. It should have an isolated neutral. See the green screen and bonding jumper on right neutral bar? That needs to be removed and you need to add a few listed ground bars- one on each side would be best.

Refer to post #3 on the electrical FAQ for diagrams:

https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=356460

Why should I get aluminum? It’s lighter? It’s 2 inch conduit...

So the ground conductor needs to be insulated?

The garage is grounded. So I need 3 3awg wires and 1 5awg wires?

Sorry for the stupid questions.....

Aluminum is a lot cheaper vs copper and will save you money.

yes ground conductor needs to be insulated.

If by grounded youre referring to the grounding electrodes, those are a different animal than a grounding conductor. You need both the grounding electrode and the grounding conductor going back to the main panel.

I listed the wire sizes above

Hmmm, is there a chance the individual conductors in that SE cable are properly marked...

(Probably not - don't see any marking in the picture. Plus the near impossibility of stripping 40 feet of the gray jacket without nicking the insulation of the individual conductors.)

SER is not permitted for underground use due to the bare ground wire.

like strip the jacket, and see. I can do that, lol. if i cant use cable as is, and cant sell it, because its already been posted for sale, for a week, ill give it a try, or i can see if the stripped section has any markings.

Dont waste your time. You cant use it stripped or not.

Go buy the proper cable.

How much are you selling it for?

 

[njccmd2002]

@Wyliesdiesels

thanks for the reply. Thats took out much of the confusion away. That SER cable is 6.50 a foot, and its aprox, 30 feet. i was selling for 100 bux or best offer.

Home depot neither lowes carry the cable online, so I have to order,

found
https://www.wireandcableyourway.com/cart.php?m=view

unless its a shady website. lol..

ill try to fix it. Getting money from him would be a greater task, than asking my dog to speak english, and hate to say it, dont have time to fool around in small claims and a lawyer will prove more expensive..

If you think that is bad, you should see the rest of screw ups he left..

1 inch sag, in porch roof, did not finish fascia, cheap pine for baseboards and window trims, etc. lol... Im over it...

the neutral is the white wire, i dont see a green screw there, i do see a jumper. Im assuming remove the jumper. the Green screw is in the ground bar.

the panel only has a few switches, and thats why only few bars installed.. The breakers are in the bottom, because the panel is almost at 5 feet.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

@Wyliesdiesels

thanks for the reply. Thats took out much of the confusion away. That SER cable is 6.50 a foot, and its aprox, 30 feet. i was selling for 100 bux or best offer.

Home depot neither lowes carry the cable online, so I have to order,

found
https://www.wireandcableyourway.com/cart.php?m=view

unless its a shady website. lol..

ill try to fix it. Getting money from him would be a greater task, than asking my dog to speak english, and hate to say it, dont have time to fool around in small claims and a lawyer will prove more expensive..

If you think that is bad, you should see the rest of screw ups he left..

1 inch sag, in porch roof, did not finish fascia, cheap pine for baseboards and window trims, etc. lol... Im over it...

Yes these threads can get confusing thats why i like to be direct with my replies and quote specific text.

That site is not shady. many members have bought from it but the shipping may eat up any savings had.

Wait. was this guy an electrician? he sounds like a jack of all trades master of none...

 

[njccmd2002]

nope, contractor hired an electrician in town, this was done by an electrician, lol, the other stuff was done by his subs, he was not supervising, and frankly did not care....

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Well that electrician doesnt know what hes doing.

 

[pattenp]

The xhhw-2 conductors in that SER are rated for wet locations and the SER cable can be used in wet locations above ground, it is just not approved for below ground use.

 

[cybrdyke]

Home depot neither lowes carry the cable online, so I have to order,

Any local electrical supply house will have it in stock and will cut it for you.
They'll also have the other stuff you might need..electrical tape, screws, etc.
CD

 

[pattenp]

Go to you local Lowe's or HD and look at what they have. From my experience both Lowes's and HD carry some wire in store that is not shown online.

 

[American Locomotive]

The xhhw-2 conductors in that SER are rated for wet locations and the SER cable can be used in wet locations above ground, it is just not approved for below ground use.

While the conductors inside the cable are XHHW-2, they aren't labeled individually so it's against code to use them. Sometimes you get lucky and somehow you get invidually labeled conductors in a cable. In that situation you can cut the jacket off the cable and use the wires as you wish.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

The xhhw-2 conductors in that SER are rated for wet locations and the SER cable can be used in wet locations above ground, it is just not approved for below ground use.

Yeah i shouldve been a little more precise on that comment

 

[pattenp]

While the conductors inside the cable are XHHW-2, they aren't labeled individually so it's against code to use them. Sometimes you get lucky and somehow you get invidually labeled conductors in a cable. In that situation you can cut the jacket off the cable and use the wires as you wish.

I have to say I have never seen conductors within a jacketed cable also being marked that would allow them to be used without the jacket.

 

[Toothaker]

snip

the neutral is the white wire, i dont see a green screw there, i do see a jumper. Im assuming remove the jumper. the Green screw is in the ground bar.

snip

You're right, the right bar is the ground bus, and it is connected to the panel, grounding the panel. The white wires all go into the neutral bus on the left, as they should.

The black strap that goes between the ground bus and the neutral bus needs to be removed.

 

[Norcal]

You're right, the right bar is the ground bus, and it is connected to the panel, grounding the panel. The white wires all go into the neutral bus on the left, as they should.

The black strap that goes between the ground bus and the neutral bus needs to be removed.

That is not correct, both bars are neutral bars and there is a black insulated jumper between them. The bonding strap needs to be removed and ground bar kit installed. Edit: the grounding conductor needs to be moved to the ground bar as does all the grounding conductors.

 

[Toothaker]

That is not correct, both bars are neutral bars and there is a black insulated jumper between them. The bonding strap needs to be removed and ground bar kit installed. Edit: the grounding conductor needs to be moved to the ground bar as does all the grounding conductors.

You are correct; I was wrong.

 

[American Locomotive]

I have to say I have never seen conductors within a jacketed cable also being marked that would allow them to be used without the jacket.

Generally conductors inside a cable are not supposed to have their own markings. Sometimes they do for whatever reason. I've seen a couple of times. All the conductors come from the same machines. Probably just a matter of someone forgetting to turn the jacket printer off for a run of cabled conductors.

That is not correct, both bars are neutral bars and there is a black insulated jumper between them. The bonding strap needs to be removed and ground bar kit installed. Edit: the grounding conductor needs to be moved to the ground bar as does all the grounding conductors.

Couldn't you just remove the strap if the panel is rated to do that? It's not as if there is any physical difference been a ground bus, and a neutral bus.

 

[pattenp]

Couldn't you just remove the strap (assuming the panel is listed to do that)?

If the manufacturer specifies that the jumper strap can be removed to leave one bar bonded then that would be okay, but I have not seen one listed as that being a suggested action. I've only seen where it says to remove the bonding strap or screw and add the appropriate ground bar kit.

 

[Toothaker]

I have the Eaton BR panel in my garage, wired as a sub panel. It came from the factory with the right neutral bar grounded. See the green screw in the OP's picture in this thread; it connects the right bar to the enclosure. So I assumed (yeah, I know) it would be the ground bar if the strap was removed.

I can't find evidence the manufacturer suggests that is an approved way to do it. They clearly sell grounding kits, and everywhere they call the left and right bars "neutral bars".

So yeah, I was wrong in this thread, and apparently I did it wrong in my own garage.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

@Wyliesdiesels

thanks for the reply. Thats took out much of the confusion away. That SER cable is 6.50 a foot, and its aprox, 30 feet. i was selling for 100 bux or best offer.

Home depot neither lowes carry the cable online, so I have to order,

found
https://www.wireandcableyourway.com/cart.php?m=view

unless its a shady website. lol..

ill try to fix it. Getting money from him would be a greater task, than asking my dog to speak english, and hate to say it, dont have time to fool around in small claims and a lawyer will prove more expensive..

If you think that is bad, you should see the rest of screw ups he left..

1 inch sag, in porch roof, did not finish fascia, cheap pine for baseboards and window trims, etc. lol... Im over it...

the neutral is the white wire, i dont see a green screw there, i do see a jumper. Im assuming remove the jumper. the Green screw is in the ground bar.

the panel only has a few switches, and thats why only few bars installed.. The breakers are in the bottom, because the panel is almost at 5 feet.

you added this last comment after i replied.

Since both bars are on insulating risers, theyre both designed to be neutral bars- thats the reason for the black tie strap. This helps to keep the panel less messy from wires crossing from side to side.

What youre supposed to do is purchase 2 ground bar kits listed for your panel and install them in the panel.

one on each side would keep things tidy...

 

[ard]

Kinda funny...seems the new electrician was right that the old cable was no good- but NOT for the reasons that claimed.

They said XHHW isnt good, not true- Type SE no good even with XHHW-2 conductors.

and said XHHW 'gets too hot for conduit'.



I dunno, getting it right for the right reasons is important.

 

[AntonLargiader]

I think you're reading too much technical accuracy into the OP's initial post. He said: " They won’t use the XHHW-2 cable. They are telling me it won’t pass inspection."

But as you know there is no XHHW-2 cable here. There are unmarked XHHW-2 wires within an SER cable, and the cable doesn't cut it. Simple as that. They're right. If the OP had said SER cable instead of XHHW-2 cable there would be nothing to argue about.

Kinda funny...seems the new electrician was right that the old cable was no good- but NOT for the reasons that claimed.

They said XHHW isnt good, not true- Type SE no good even with XHHW-2 conductors.

and said XHHW 'gets too hot for conduit'.



I dunno, getting it right for the right reasons is important.

 

[ard]

I think you're reading too much technical accuracy into the OP's initial post. He said: " They won’t use the XHHW-2 cable. They are telling me it won’t pass inspection."

But as you know there is no XHHW-2 cable here. There are unmarked XHHW-2 wires within an SER cable, and the cable doesn't cut it. Simple as that. They're right. If the OP had said SER cable instead of XHHW-2 cable there would be nothing to argue about.

Perhaps true.


The comment about getting too hot for conduit was also OP misspeaking?

 

[paul.nmedia.net]

Re: XHHW-2 safe for conduit? Need help wiring dettach garage

Bull. In common use you might only see XHHW2 in an SE cable but it's also common in tray cables and it's often listed as a spec. In che,iCal plants and inside substations (old GE spec) because the thicker insulation gives it a slightly higher flashovers voltage (around 3400 V vs. 2800 V for #14 THHN vs. XHHW). At one time it was only available as XHHW so dry location only and 75 C temperatures but today we have XHHW2 which is 90 C and dry or damp, same as MTW/THWN2. The difference is the THHN family has a clear nylon over coat and PVC insulation which makes it thinner and pull easier where the XHHW has just one layer of a different insulation (XLPE) which also makes panels look very neat because it holds bends better (stranded #14 tends to do what it wants).

Sent from my SM-T350 using Tapatalk

 

[AntonLargiader]

The comment about getting too hot for conduit was also OP misspeaking?

Dunno; I wasn't there. Maybe it was a helper taking a guess at why it wasn't allowed, maybe it would have been disallowed for overheating in a smaller conduit even if above ground. I'm happy if my mechanic knows and achieves the lug bolt torque spec; he doesn't need to know the engineering behind it.

 

[alfredeneuman]

Re: XHHW-2 safe for conduit? Need help wiring dettach garage

At one time it was only available as XHHW so dry location only and 75 C temperatures but today we have XHHW2 which is 90 C and dry or damp, same as MTW/THWN2.

The "2" suffix just designates it as UV Resistant, and the "W" means it is suitable for wet locations.
https://www.southwire.com/ProductCatalog/XTEInterfaceServlet?contentKey=prodcatsheetOEM6

MTW stands for machine tool wire and if you look at the ampacity charts, it isn't even listed.
THWN is listed for wet locations.
There is no such thing as a wire that's listed for dry and damp location

 

[exranger06]

If the manufacturer specifies that the jumper strap can be removed to leave one bar bonded then that would be okay, but I have not seen one listed as that being a suggested action. I've only seen where it says to remove the bonding strap or screw and add the appropriate ground bar kit.

Eaton CH panels have twin neutral bars that are both bonded. Their instructions say to simply remove the bonding ******** one of the bars to use as a neutral and use the other one as a ground.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Eaton-CH-100-Amp-14-Space-14-Circuit-Indoor-Main-Breaker-Loadcenter-with-Cover-CH14B100BP/100156807

5 Grounding and bonding
Refer to the NEC or CEC and applicable local codes for proper grounding methods.
A. For service entrance applications, attach bonding strap to neutral bar. Torque
neutral wire screws to 35 lb-in.
B. For second tier panels fed from the service entrance panel, DO NOT attach
bonding strap.

It doesn't explicitly say to leave the other bar grounded or not, but my subpanel has the bonding strap spot-welded to the back of the enclosure, so you cannot just remove it from the other ground bar. So basically one bar is permanently bonded, and the other bar has a removable strap.

 

[Norcal]

It’s rather foolish than remove one of the neutral bars over a few dollars.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Only having one neutral bar and one ground bar makes for a messy panel.

Why not buy 2 inexpensive ground bar kits(listed for the panels), install them one on each side, unbond the neutral bars, and move the grounding conductors and GEC from the right neutral bar over to the new ground bars.