Yep, another hvac pricing question

[mike93lx]

I have three systems, two 2.5 ton and one 1.5 ton. All R22, all original to the house from 2003.

In case it is relevant, the coils for the 2.5 ton systems are 3 ton rated and are upflow not sure on the 1.5 ton system.

Everything is working well, thankfully, but I recognize that I am nearing end of life and with R22, my understanding is that I have to replace the coil, condenser and compressor all at once when something fails.

I had a local hvac company service the system and no problems were found,but I asked for quotes to replace, so I could be ready in the event of a problem.

They quoted 14 Seer Goodman, reusing the old line set and all ducting. 3800 for each 2.5 ton and 3200 for the 1.5 ton. Opinions on those quotes?

Should one of my units fail, anything you would do to optimize the system or get more bang for my buck?

Furnaces are 80% gas, FYI. No indications of problems or any of them

 

[Git]

Can't offer an opinion on the quotes, but expected life of a gas furnace is usually around 16 to 20 years (although some say 30). You are pretty close to that and if I was you, I would strongly consider replacing everything. Also, not sure how long you plan on staying in that house, but 14 seer is pretty low. There are a number of 'seer calculators' on the internet that will show you how much money you would save but buying a higher seer unit. Here is one example

SEER Energy Savings Calculator for Air Conditioners

Use our free SEER Energy Savings Calculator to instantly see how much energy you save by upgrading to an air conditioner with a higher SEER / SEER2 rating.

www.seerenergysavings.com

 

[mike93lx]

Can't offer an opinion on the quotes, but expected life of a gas furnace is usually around 16 to 20 years (although some say 30). You are pretty close to that and if I was you, I would strongly consider replacing everything. Also, not sure how long you plan on staying in that house, but 14 seer is pretty low. There are a number of 'seer calculators' on the internet that will show you how much money you would save but buying a higher seer unit. Here is one example

SEER Energy Savings Calculator for Air Conditioners

Use our free SEER Energy Savings Calculator to instantly see how much energy you save by upgrading to an air conditioner with a higher SEER / SEER2 rating.

www.seerenergysavings.com

Thanks. Plan is probably 15 years in this house. I'd be surprised if it was a lot longer as the kids will be in college at that point

I did ask for a price on a higher efficiency unit as well.

 

[sherlocktk]

I am going through this process now. Those are great prices compared to southern California. The biggest issue I have ran into is the evaporator coils on R410 are generally a lot taller than the R22, which requires a lot of rework for returns and ducting too, increasing the cost quite a bit. The quotes I have got for upflow furnace, coil and outside condenser are around 10k to 15k. (for a 5 ton system)

 

[mike93lx]

I am going through this process now. Those are great prices compared to southern California. The biggest issue I have ran into is the evaporator coils on R410 are generally a lot taller than the R22, which requires a lot of rework for returns and ducting too, increasing the cost quite a bit. The quotes I have got for upflow furnace, coil and outside condenser are around 10k to 15k. (for a 5 ton system)

Wow, that's crazy.

They did include any ducting rework required, so I don't expect that to be a problem. The two larger units have lots of room above each. Return shouldn't matter as it connects at the bottom and below the furnace.

I feel like having three separate units that aren't all that big individually seems a little silly. I feel like a modern 5 ton should be able to do my whole house, since we don't use all of the same space at the same time. It would be nice to "direct" more energy to the space in active use and just maintain a higher temp in the others.

I trust the company I had out, but the guy felt a basic system would make the most sense and didn't really want to talk about options. I appreciate opinions, but I hate having options filtered based on someone else's preferences.

 

[Gizzi]

Are the furnaces as old as the AC units? If so, might make more sense to do full scale system replacements. The prices they quoted are not unreasonable. To do a 5 ton unit would require major duct work replacement, very expensive and intrusive to the building. At least with three separate units there is redundancy if one goes down.

 

[mike93lx]

Are the furnaces as old as the AC units? If so, might make more sense to do full scale system replacements. The prices they quoted are not unreasonable. To do a 5 ton unit would require major duct work replacement, very expensive and intrusive to the building. At least with three separate units there is redundancy if one goes down.

Yes, all original to the house.

Just talked to another guy. 80% Furnace and 14 seer a/c for about 6500. 16 seer is about 8000.

He shot down the idea of a combined unit and recommended against anything higher than 16 seer

 

[Showkey]

16 seer AC and 95% plus furnace at $8000 would be the “going rate” in many areas.
16 seer gets utility rebates in many areas.
90+ furnace same on rebates.

 

[mike93lx]

16 seer AC and 95% plus furnace at $8000 would be the “going rate” in many areas.
16 seer gets utility rebates in many areas.
90+ furnace same on rebates.

It was 16 seer and a 80%.

No rebates here

 

[Gizzi]

Yes, all original to the house.

Just talked to another guy. 80% Furnace and 14 seer a/c for about 6500. 16 seer is about 8000.

He shot down the idea of a combined unit and recommended against anything higher than 16 seer

6500 for 80 percent furnace and 14 Seer AC seems right for my area (WI). The difference between 14 and 16 Seer is usually just an expansion valve vs. a piston. Can't see upcharging an additional 1500 for a valve, that's a bit unreasonable.

 

[Showkey]

I would not consider a 80% under any circumstance.
Plus the 90% has better blower. I would consider a two stage 93+ as the bare minimum.
Comfort and resale and cost of operation over the 10 years.

 

[mike93lx]

I would not consider a 80% under any circumstance.
Plus the 90% has better blower. I would consider a two stage 93+ as the bare minimum.
Comfort and resale and cost of operation over the 10 years.

Interesting in the differing opinions on this.

We don't do a heck of a lot of heating here. In MA, I had a 96+% and loved it. Way more heating than cooling and I used a pretty small amount of gas

I bet a 90%+ will cost more in the long run, environmental impact aside, which I do have on my mind.

Resale, however, is not what I am worried about.

 

[Git]

I am going through this process now. Those are great prices compared to southern California. The biggest issue I have ran into is the evaporator coils on R410 are generally a lot taller than the R22, which requires a lot of rework for returns and ducting too, increasing the cost quite a bit. The quotes I have got for upflow furnace, coil and outside condenser are around 10k to 15k. (for a 5 ton system)

I had my 17 year old system replaced last year when the electrical shorted out at the condenser plug and let out all the freon. Went with a Costco contractor who offered 3 systems, good better best kind of a thing. Prices was very similar to what you experienced, 10 at the bottom and 15 for the top - this was for Lenox. I didn't notice any difference in the height of the coil, and it had no effect on the ductwork - I think maybe someone is feeding you a line?

 

[Showkey]

agree ^^^^^ 90+ opinion………… In VA higher seer has real merit with AC on for 6 months at the low end ? Even 2 stage or variable AC would have some merit.
New to you……..but……..Is there a billing history you can pull on the home for gas/electric ?

 

[sherlocktk]

Most of the >80% furnaces need a different type of exaust pipe due to the condensation in the exhaust. An 80% has enough heat to not need to replace the galvanized steel ones, and why I kept at 80%, which is not used a lot in Southern Cali.

 

[mike93lx]

agree ^^^^^ 90+ opinion………… In VA higher seer has real merit with AC on for 6 months at the low end ? Even 2 stage or variable AC would have some merit.
New to you……..but……..Is there a billing history you can pull on the home for gas/electric ?

I don't have history, no. Possible that the utility might share, but I don't think it will be all that relevant anyway. Previous owners were an older couple, we are a family of four and I work from home.

So far, I have had two hvac contractors tell me not to bother with anything over 16 seer and 80%. They are the ones that would benefit immediately from the upsell, so I feel that tells me something.

I'm not swapping anything right now anyway, as all of my money is being put into a hole in the backyard that will be filled with water, but I am thinking about doing the 1st floor system maybe next year

 

[Terry D]

I had my 17 year old system replaced last year when the electrical shorted out at the condenser plug and let out all the freon. Went with a Costco contractor who offered 3 systems, good better best kind of a thing. Prices was very similar to what you experienced, 10 at the bottom and 15 for the top - this was for Lenox. I didn't notice any difference in the height of the coil, and it had no effect on the ductwork - I think maybe someone is feeding you a line?

I have seen some pretty tall cased coils on new systems

 

[Git]

I have seen some pretty tall cased coils on new systems

They make horizontal and they make vertical coils. The new coil they installed on my new 4 ton system is basically the same size as the old one, yet the seer rating on the new AC is *up to 26*. (I know I am not getting that high because my ductwork won't support it - but still I would like to think I am in the 20's...)

 

[FMB4]

Yep, 10 to 15K is the average cost of replacing the typical residential HVAC system these days (with the higher price, of course, including replacement of the duct work). Note: many HVAC ducting from the late 90s or so are of the flexible type and, as such, may often need to be replaced.

 

[danski0224]

I would not consider a 80% under any circumstance.
Plus the 90% has better blower. I would consider a two stage 93+ as the bare minimum.
Comfort and resale and cost of operation over the 10 years.

Pfft on the better blower line. An 80% AFUE furnace can be had with the same blowers as the 92+%... it is difficult to get a plain old 3 speed PSC motor as the ECM (not variable speed) is pretty much the standard now.

Going from 80% to a condensing furnace will require significant exhaust vent work, and the now orphaned gas water heater(s) need(s) to be addressed. The condensing furnace will also require ductwork modifications... but most homes have significantly undersized ductwork anyways.

Other stuff, didn't multi-quote:

Consolidating down to a single 5 ton system would require a LOT of extra work. Not to mention that by far most 5 ton systems will never actually deliver "5 tons" of capacity due to crappy installation and not looking at the evaporator coil and condenser unit specs. Some manufacturers have 2 "5 ton" condensers and evaporator coils, and only one combination will actually deliver or come close to delivering 60,000 btu of cooling. The other is more like a "heavy 4 ton", but it's cheaper...

There is a lot buried in the actual evaporator coil specs. Picking the right one makes a difference.

High SEER is dependent on airflow. Small ductwork means no benefits, and it can actually cost more to run that so-called high efficiency system.

Good luck.

 

[mike93lx]

My brand new 80gal water heater is right next to my 1st floor furnace. No way I am replacing all of it. Current summertime gas usage (hot water only) is like $20, so I would never pay back on an upgrade for the water heater. Ducting would be a PIA based on where it is, too.

I have lots of insulated flex, which is working well enough. A full ducting rework is never going to happen on my dime

 

[danski0224]

There's always this approach...

(internet picture, not me)

 

[jjrbus]

A long time ago in a land far away I bought one of those golly gosh gee whiz high tech energy sipping units. Right out of warranty the circuit board burned out. Took the technological expert in the area to diagnose it and the cost of repair wiped out a decade of energy savings. 2 years later same board burned out. Now I am smarter and know what the problem is, bought the board and replaced myself. Still cost several years of energy savings. Unless I move to an area where energy is grossly expensive, no more high seer for me, I can't afford the savings.

This was a natural gas furnace in Western New Your a long time ago when natural gas was very cheap.

 

[Showkey]

^^^^^^^^^
That sounds good…….until your like by daughters home in Texas that had consistent $400-$600/month electric bills.

 

[mike93lx]

^^^^^^^^^
That sounds good…….until your like by daughters home in Texas that had consistent $400-$600/month electric bills.

Hold on a sec. Are you telling me that people living in different parts of the country have different priorities when choosing stuff like Hvac equipment? No way

 

[Showkey]

Well the Florida guy said he can’t afford the saving ? So what does that mean ? My daughter could not afford not to make some changes ? You said you did not know the cost of heating and cooling ?

so how does one decide on HVAC a with a total lack for data points…….

 

[mike93lx]

Well the Florida guy said he can’t afford the saving ? So what does that mean ? My daughter could not afford not to make some changes ? You said you did not know the cost of heating and cooling ?

so how does one decide on HVAC a with a total lack for data points…….

My point is that whatever someone in Texas would do is irrelevant here

 

[yeldogt]

I think living in the house will give you a better idea of the systems and how well they work .... hopefully they last a few years and you can get a good idea of any problems. Noise is a good indication of small/ restrictive duct work .... The vast majority of homes built have ductwork that is too small and restricts air flow -- plus the equipment is oversized. While you are thinking about this you should find a load calculation program (my guess is none of the people who came out did one .... they just copy what is there). Finding out what the whole house needs will give you an idea of the full load on the structure -- you can then do a room by room and match that to the systems you have and the size. Just running the systems will tell you some of this .... any noise .... how long do they run on really hot days ..... cold days. If the system are not running very often -- they are too big.

Moving from an 80% will require some work. Is it worth it ? All depends on how much heat you use .... with natural gas it may not be worth it ... this is math.

The main selling point with the better equipment is comfort -- yes they save some energy ... but the real reason is quiet comfort. The better equipment will have a multi-speed compressor -- could be two speed ... carrier makes a five speed that I use all the time and everybody makes a full variable speed unit today. With AC in a humid climate you want the AC to run -- not go on and off. The multi peed equipment allows for matching the house need and allows for long runs. That's why oversized equipment is bad -- short run times. The same thing is true on the heat side .... some have two outputs ..some 10 ... some fully modulating. This allows the variable fan in the furnace to match its speed to the output needed. In heat and AC. I'm surprised no rebates? Almost all states have them and it usually requires getting the heat-pump.

You want to make sure the flex duct is properly installed -- it's often not and restrictive. Any equipment in an unconditioned attic ?? all this stuff matters.

Here is the deal .... most installers want to do what is easy. The customer is happy enough with what he has -- lets not rock the boat. I put back what you had .... don't blame me. Most installers have never lived in a house with better equipment -- they really don't know.

If I was building your house I would never install three systems today -- modern VS (variable speed) equipment with zoning is the answer. If you have both systems sitting next to each other -- it's often possible to zone them off of one unit .... but it has to be a better unit with VS ... Like the Carrier 5 speed with infinity control.

I have no idea how you house is set up .... so that's why I say best to live with it and do some discovery. Also -- it may be worth doing a better system for only one that get used the most .... again this will depend on what going on with the house.

You really should get a proper load done on the house. When I build and rebuild -- I get this done. This way I know what the whole house needs and what each room needs -- this tells me the ductwork required. It's really a simple process -- even paying for it is only a couple hundred. Then you know.

My current project is an old stone building (1870) with new addition -- I used spray foam ... but, in some places I wanted visible stone walls. The place has high ceiling everywhere 12' -- some 28'. The project is not finished .... when I had the system designed the main area with 3500sf came to just under 35k BTU on full design day. The addition of 1k is a kitchen so that come in at 15k (little extra capacity for the heat and people). All the HVAC people said I needed 5T and 3T ..... My math and experience said they were wrong. A couple weeks ago when I went to the property (PA on a 96 day) ..... the 36 BTU Carrier unit was running on stage 4 at 2pm in the afternoon. Only thing on and the house was cool .... Cooling is as much about humidity. I had the unit set for 74 and 50% RH ... Anything lower and it will feel cold.

 

[mike93lx]

All ducting is in unconditioned space, between the crawl space (1st floor) and attic (2nd and 3rd floor). We are having the crawl encapsulated in September, but I'm not going to do the attic.

I am happy with the system so far, other than air balancing in my office. As the return is on the other side of the house. That will be less of an issue when the kids are back in school and I can leave the door open, but I still want to get a return installed. I do hate having to cool my entire 1st floor just to keep comfortable in my office, but I would never get payback in installing a mini split just for it.

Yes,you are right, they just spec'd a replacement for the existing equipment. No Calc, no though on what it best.

I'm going to start with the crawl space and having some air sealing done, then I will look at a real system design.

 

[yeldogt]

Make sure you look into that ductwork before insulation -- feel all the outlets to be sure you are getting good flow. You want to make sure it's not kinked or damaged.

Unconditioned space takes from the system capacity --- all systems leak and the insulation on the ductwork and equipment is minimal. Plus you have excess gain to the building. I'm sure they are oversized ... once they are happy inside the building and the building tight the load will drop.

Getting that load done is important ... most of the better equipment only comes in full ton sizes. You need to know the load. IMO -- Just doing the AC is a mistake with equipment that age ... My guess is upgrading the first floor to a better unit with at least 2 speed heat pump and VS blower in the furnace will make the whole place better --- lower humidity. It will make the whole house more comfortable.

Remember --all the new equipment comes with long warranties. 10 years on parts. Amana is a Goodman brand and for a few extra bucks they have some nice products -- good price points and excellent warranties. You can also buy a factory extended labor from them out to 10 years. They are I think the only one that does the warranty in house --- all the other farm it out