Yes, its another garage internet question, please

[toot88]

I am a 60 year-old semi retired mechanical engineer who can use some advice on getting internet to my detached garage (aka the barn). The barn is a 32 x 40 two story gambrel roof building with a 20 x 40 addition. The barn is stick built construction with aluminum siding. The barn is 80 feet from my house, which also has aluminum siding. In the house, I have a Netgear N900 (WNDR4500) wireless router in my office, which is at the far end of the house from the barn. The house is 52’ wide. I have an empty 1” PVC conduit buried from the house to the barn. Line of sight is obstructed by vegetation.

I have a DVR recorder in the barn (for security cameras) that requires a wired Ethernet connection. I would also like to have wireless internet in the barn (which all the aluminum siding now prevents). I figure the total cable length to get from the existing house wireless router to inside the barn is about 160’. To get from the house wireless router to the barn DVR is 206’.

What do I need to safely connect the barn DVR to my internet and to also provide wireless in the barn? Is it as simple as running cat 6a or 7 from the existing house router to a new wireless router in the barn and then connecting the barn DVR to a wired port on the new wireless barn router via a RJ-45 patch cable?

If any of this matters, fwiw, the barn 150 amp electric panel is a sub-panel fed from the house 200 amp panel. The neutral is isolated from the ground in the barn panel. The barn and the house each have their own ground rods. The barn and house panels are bonded through the buried steel conduit that the barn panel is fed through.

I’ve read numerous threads here dealing with detached garage internet and have found much regarding extending wireless, and others that may apply to me but my internet equipment dialogue is pretty much limited to modem and wireless router. If anyone can suggest equipment model numbers that I need, it is greatly appreciated.

 

[ltusler]

I would just pull a underground rated cat 5e or 6 to the barn, Eirco makes cat rated lightning protectors. You could also pull a preterminated fiber pair, but then you need fiber ready switches or a pair of transceivers to convert back to copper. Install a switch in the barn and patch to a port in the house. 5e or 6 will take you 1GB ethernet if you by the right switch for each side. 6A or 7 will take you to 10GB but I doubt you will want to pay for the switches to support that. Ethernet over powerline is also a possibility, I am using converters from Netgear and they connect at .5GB. Fast enough for me. Just be sure they are plugged into the same leg of the power connection between the buildings. Also pull a string with the cable in the conduit, so you can add later if needed.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I am a 60 year-old semi retired mechanical engineer who can use some advice on getting internet to my detached garage (aka the barn). The barn is a 32 x 40 two story gambrel roof building with a 20 x 40 addition. The barn is stick built construction with aluminum siding. The barn is 80 feet from my house, which also has aluminum siding. In the house, I have a Netgear N900 (WNDR4500) wireless router in my office, which is at the far end of the house from the barn. The house is 52’ wide. I have an empty 1” PVC conduit buried from the house to the barn. Line of sight is obstructed by vegetation.

I have a DVR recorder in the barn (for security cameras) that requires a wired Ethernet connection. I would also like to have wireless internet in the barn (which all the aluminum siding now prevents). I figure the total cable length to get from the existing house wireless router to inside the barn is about 160’. To get from the house wireless router to the barn DVR is 206’.

What do I need to safely connect the barn DVR to my internet and to also provide wireless in the barn? Is it as simple as running cat 6a or 7 from the existing house router to a new wireless router in the barn and then connecting the barn DVR to a wired port on the new wireless barn router via a RJ-45 patch cable?

If any of this matters, fwiw, the barn 150 amp electric panel is a sub-panel fed from the house 200 amp panel. The neutral is isolated from the ground in the barn panel. The barn and the house each have their own ground rods. The barn and house panels are bonded through the buried steel conduit that the barn panel is fed through.

I’ve read numerous threads here dealing with detached garage internet and have found much regarding extending wireless, and others that may apply to me but my internet equipment dialogue is pretty much limited to modem and wireless router. If anyone can suggest equipment model numbers that I need, it is greatly appreciated.

yes it is that simple. Though u only need CAT5e. U could use CAT6 but the additional cost isnt worth it as u can do gigabit over CAT5e. Make sure to use flooded cable that has gel for repealing moisture.

Buy a wireless router that has beamwidth forming and that will help with signal issues though any kind of metal will cause signal issues and no amount of signal can fix that.

I have installed lots of these and have one in my house as my main WAN router:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B00F0...gear+r7000&dpPl=1&dpID=41MfXitXjeL&ref=plSrch

Make sure to change the routers IP address if it has the same IP as your existing router before plugging it into the rest of your network otherwise youll have IP conflicts.

Also, if u want access to the rest of your network resources, plug the ethernet cable into a LAN port on the barn router NOT the WAN port.

 

[theoldwizard1]

yes it is that simple. Though u only need CAT5e. U could use CAT6 but the additional cost isnt worth it as u can do gigabit over CAT5e. Make sure to use flooded cable that has gel for repealing moisture.

In another post a few months ago the suggestion was, run conduit (1/2") and use plain old CAT5e. If it fails, pull a new cable. That "flooded cable" sound $$$ !

As for a router/wireless access point, there literally hundreds available. The most important thing is that t works well with your existing router in your house. Buying the same brand is not a bad idea. If you want to save some money, but a used one from eBay.

 

[Denwood]

I just purchased the very well reviewed Netgear EX7000 (AC1900 class wifi) which is very fast, and supports use as a repeater as well as an access point with simultaneous G (2.4ghz) and N (5Ghz) with 700mW of power. It has 5 x Gigabit LAN ports and supports direct attach USB drives. I typically have found wifi units I've used over the last decade have pretty much performed the same, with the exception of the higher power EAP600s I've been using. The EX7000 is quite impressive.

In my tests, this unit is much faster in all respects (50% faster in base line speed tests) than the outgoing dual band G/N device. I'm using it right now as a "fast lane" repeater which connects to the house wifi on one band, but extends the network on the other. The usual 50% performance hit extending a wifi net disappears. Highly recommend it. I'm currently (as in tonight) finally terminating 14 yr old Cat5 that has been sitting in conduit since running a gas line 60ft to my shop. Powerline was unreliable, and blasting wifi via the repeater does not give the bandwidth I'm looking for. The CAT5 cable has been coiled (outside!) fully exposed at both ends of the 1" conduit for 14 hrs. It tested out perfectly tonight so I can go ahead and bore holes through my foundation etc. to terminate.

Pull Cat5e to your barn, and plug in a device like the Ex7000. Configure, plug your DVR in. Done. Netgear advertises this as an extender, but I purchased to use it as a high performance Access Point:

http://www.netgear.com/home/products/networking/wifi-range-extenders/EX7000.aspx

Smallnetbuilder.com did an excellent review of this unit's predecessor and found that it topped their performance charts. I wrote an extensive 10Gbe series for them last year.

 

[86turbodsl]

Lightning induced currents are a real problem in buried cat5! I did fiber for less than 100 on mine. Ebay.

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[wyliesdiesels]

In another post a few months ago the suggestion was, run conduit (1/2") and use plain old CAT5e. If it fails, pull a new cable. That "flooded cable" sound $$$ !

As for a router/wireless access point, there literally hundreds available. The most important thing is that t works well with your existing router in your house. Buying the same brand is not a bad idea. If you want to save some money, but a used one from eBay.

Yes its more expensive than regular CAT5e but when u count the labor to replace the regular CAT5e when it fails, then its a lot cheaper.

Amazon sells it for $159 for 1000'. Im sure u could get it at a supply house by the foot.

And no u dont need a router thats the same brand as the existing one. Ethernet is ethernet and there should be no issues plugging 2 different routers into each other.

And i would NEVER buy a used unit. No telling whats wrong with it. As cheap as the stuff is nowadays, its not worth the hassle to buy used.

BTW I do low voltage wiring for a living. Ive seen enough failed CAT5e cables that were ran through water filled conduit to know that its not worth cheaping out on the job because u wanted to spend a few bucks less on wire. Do the job right the first time and then u dont have to worry about it again.

Utilizing ethernet surge protectors on each end is a good idea.

I just purchased the very well reviewed Netgear EX7000 (AC1900 class wifi) which is very fast, and supports use as a repeater as well as an access point with simultaneous G (2.4ghz) and N (5Ghz) with 700mW of power. It has 4 x Gb LAN ports and supports direct attach USB drives.

In my tests, this unit is much faster in all respects than the outgoing dual band device. I'm using it right now as a "fast lane" repeater which connects to the house wifi on one band, but extends the network on the other. The usual 50% performance hit disappears. Highly recommend it. I'm currently (as in tonight) finally terminating 14 yr old Cat5 that has been sitting in conduit since running a gas line 60ft to my shop. Powerline was unreliable, and blasting wifi via the repeater does not give the bandwidth I'm looking for. The CAT5 cable has been coiled (outside!) fully exposed at both ends of the 1" conduit for 14 hrs. It tested out perfectly tonight so I can go ahead and bore holes through my foundation etc. to terminate.

Pull Cat5e to your barn, and plug in a device like the Ex7000. Configure, plug your DVR in. Done. Netgear advertises this as an extender, but I purchased to use it as a high performance Access Point:

http://www.netgear.com/home/products/networking/wifi-range-extenders/EX7000.aspx

Smallnetbuilder.com did an excellent review of this unit and found that it topped their performance charts. I wrote an extensive 10Gbe series for them last year.

I dont recommend range extenders to my clients for that exact reason unless there is no Way to get an ethernet cable to the location.

The one problem with receiving signal on one band and repeating it on another is when u want to use both bands.

 

[Denwood]

That's why I'd recommend the EX7000 as a fast wired AP inside the barn. The dual GHz processors evidently help with performance. That way you have simulataneous G,N and perhaps an AC1900 device. I've found N is not so great in terms of range...most devices are connecting better on G.

The OP's DVR pretty much dictates a wired LAN. The EX7000 adds a fast AP and 5 LAN ports as well...obviously uses the same hardware as the R7000 router...but less $$.

I will say the EX7000 is the first extender ever that I would recommend for home use. On the commercial side, have been impressed with the EAP600 from Engenius as an AP at 800mw.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I assume u meant R7000 router aka Nighthawk.

I have one and love it. I thought of getting the r8000 when i was shopping for the R7000 but seeing as theres no 3x3 devices other than add on cards, i felt it wasnt worth the extra $150.

When u say N i assume u are talking about 5Ghz N. Yes 5Ghz doesnt get as good of a range as 2.4Ghz because of the frequency wavelength. However, 5Ghz has more bandwidth.

 

[toot88]

Thanks for the very quick answers. This is information I was hoping for. And the cost of Cat5e looks a lot better to me.

I can add that I am up on a higher hill in the area and do have a real lightning concern. (My TV antenna (on a 40' freestanding tower next to the house) gets lightning strikes every 2 or 3 years. My family & I are pretty good at disconnecting the rotor and antenna lines whenever weather conditions dictate.) I looked at a black box ethernet RJ-45 opto-isolator but I did not think the ratings looked sufficient for lightning protection. Are there suggestions for ethernet surge protectors that are good for lightning? ((just saw the recommendation for Eirco, above, I will check that out))

I am also 120' above the water table and other than a little top soil, it is all sand. Between being on a hill and the sand, water does not collect around here. I don't think water will collect in the conduit, but to be certain, I'll blow it out and see what comes out the other end one of these days. Would the gel filled cable still be necessary if the conduit stays dry?

 

[Denwood]

I assume u meant R7000 router aka Nighthawk.

I have one and love it. I thought of getting the r8000 when i was shopping for the R7000 but seeing as theres no 3x3 devices other than add on cards, i felt it wasnt worth the extra $150.

When u say N i assume u are talking about 5Ghz N. Yes 5Ghz doesnt get as good of a range as 2.4Ghz because of the frequency wavelength. However, 5Ghz has more bandwidth.

R7000, yes I have pretty much ignored ACxxxx hype up until SNB did plain old N class tests on the new hardware. The EX7000 is consistently 40-50% faster than my old G/N AP.

Toot, if it's an easy pull, go with plain CAT6 or CAT5e x2. I've been running 10Gbe over Cat5e since last February with no speed degradation. The decision to go flooded should be based on the difficulty if you need to replace. I've had plain old CAT5e exposed (not terminated) at both ends of open conduit for the last 14 yrs, and it tested fine tonight. We see -35C, so pretty extreme for weather.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I have an iPhone 5s and it doesnt do AC wireless so i dont notice much of a speed increase. My wife's iPhone 6plus on the other hand DOES have AC wireless and her phone flies on the WiFi @ home.

AFA lightning arrestors go, Ive used a number of brands. I cant remember off the top of my head the brand names, so I will have to dig them up.

 

[86turbodsl]

I can add that I am up on a higher hill in the area and do have a real lightning concern. (My TV antenna (on a 40' freestanding tower next to the house) gets lightning strikes every 2 or 3 years. My family & I are pretty good at disconnecting the rotor and antenna lines whenever weather conditions dictate.) I looked at a black box ethernet RJ-45 opto-isolator but I did not think the ratings looked sufficient for lightning protection. Are there suggestions for ethernet surge protectors that are good for lightning? ((just saw the recommendation for Eirco, above, I will check that out))

I may be harping here, but i'm telling you fiber is the way to go. I got multimode fiber preterminated off ebay 300' for $69. $5 100BT-FX converters brand new trendnet, and 1" plastic conduit buried at 18" all done for less than what you'd have into ethernet and still have to worry about blown isolators. And it's impervious to lightning damage and upgradable to gigabit if i want to. In the ground 7 years, no issues.

 

[Pwrgeek]

Given that the structures have separate ground planes I have to add my recommendation to go fiber. It can be done cheaply enough and will eliminate many of the maintenance headaches of multi building copper Ethernet (blow LAs, water degraded cabling, blown equipment when the LAs don't do their jobs). I have seen multi building copper Ethernet take out multiple devices in the networks on both ends when there was a nearby lightning strike. If your DVR cost anything near what mine did just that one piece of equipment risk makes the fiber solution worth it.


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[wyliesdiesels]

I agree with the fiber idea.

And since the 2 conduit ends are at different elevations U should seal the low end and drill a drain hole at the lowest point on the lower end to drain any water that may accumalate in the pipe.

 

[theoldwizard1]

Amazon sells it for $159 for 1000'.

That is a great price ! The OP could cut off 100' and then cut the rest into 100' lengths and sell them for $20 and be money ahead !

 

[ltusler]

The part number for the Mod-Mod Category 6 protector is Erico LANRJ45C6 700528. Its made to mount on a DIN Rail, but most guys should be able to jury rig or Macgyver a suitable ground connection.

 

[ltusler]

Just connected one to my office PC and a GB LAN connection. Functions just fine.

 

[Falcon67]

I bought 250' of plain Cat5 cable off Amazon for $30. I've been on this job for 17 years and we have plain old Cat 5 in some damn crappy spaces and environments. Didn't blink about fishing basic twisted pair cable through the 30' of conduit between the house and shop.

Fiber is a poor and expensive answer. If he breaks or damages the fiber, what's he supposed to do then, go buy a $500 splice kit and learn how on the spot? Wasted effort and $$$. Better to use Ubiquity nodes - easier and cheaper. I manage 78,000' of fiber at work, I don't need 2" of it around the house. And I've got a 14,000' roll of 8 strand MM I could cut a chunk off of for free.

 

[dkitt10]

rule of thumb 90 meters for cat 5E good to go (this allows for little extra on ends from wall jacks to devices)

alternatively I've done a lot of successful directional wireless antenna installs that will also provide yard wifi basically mount xmter on outside house rcvr on barn and can redistribute inside

though you have conduit ran so i would run the cat 5E but i would pull two runs for the hell of it

 

[Pwrgeek]

Multi building copper Ethernet is a BAD idea. IEEE 802.3 (the standard that regulates how copper Ethernet works on the wire) only requires a 2400V impulse withstand withstand inside the equipment. Using a typical EGC between the two structures it does not take very much current (in comparison to a lightning strike) to develop that amount of voltage. I have seen entire buildings worth of equipment destroyed by a lightning strike that didn't even hit either structure. If you do decide to do it (which I would recommend against) absolutely do not use STP cable only use UTP. There is a reason all serious data transmission entities ALWAYS use fiber to connect equipment with different ground planes. It's a pretty good idea. As for fiber being expensive it's not. You can get 30m zip cord patch cables with ends in them for $30. If you break it just get a new one. They're cheap.


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[dkitt10]

Every telco has miles of copper cables out there. Potential difference from lightning strike would not be even the slightest conceren for me

 

[Pwrgeek]

Every telco has miles of copper cables out there. Potential difference from lightning strike would not be even the slightest conceren for me

Copper pots is a whole different animal. ITU sets much more stringent rules for impulse withstand. The whole system has engineered grounding and in general it doesn't have a lot of high dollar sensitive equipment connected to it. That said I don't know many people who haven't at some time had a phone or dsl modem die mysteriously after a lightning storm. For their backbone telcos use fiber. Copper Ethernet was never intended to be multi premise. That's why it has a 100m absolute limit.


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[dkitt10]

True but for the frequency of equipment change out vs higher cost fibre I would still run the cat 5 in this situation and if it were my house/shop I would run the cat5

100m is strictly attenuation. It has it's limits because copper 26 gauge was never designed to be running remotely close to what we are doing with it. That being said it is still cost effective more DIY friendly and reliable

 

[Pwrgeek]

True but for the frequency of equipment change out vs higher cost fibre I would still run the cat 5 in this situation and if it were my house/shop I would run the cat5

100m is strictly attenuation. It has it's limits because copper 26 gauge was never designed to be running remotely close to what we are doing with it. That being said it is still cost effective more DIY friendly and reliable

If you only consider the cost of the cable you are correct. The problem is not when something happens and kills the cable that's a simple fix. The problem is when something happens and kills every device connected to the network at both ends. This is much more likely to happen with multi premise wiring because there is an electrical connection to the network which does not share the same ground plane. Recipe for disaster.


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[dkitt10]

I have never seen that amount of damage to equipment in applications like this

Either way what ever you decide to run if you go cat 5. Use a underground grease filled cable!

 

[Pwrgeek]

I have never seen that amount of damage to equipment in applications like this



Either way what ever you decide to run if you go cat 5. Use a underground grease filled cable!

I do lots of installs of multi building networks for work. My experience with them is in the hundreds of installs. I am in the Texas Gulf Coast which has the second highest lightning strike frequency in the country so I see lots of the results. We have gone back and replaced all of our inter building links with fiber after several large losses of equipment from lightning strikes. Our rule now is if it goes outside the edge of the slab of the building then it is fiber. The fiber and equipment are too cheap compared to the damage that can occur to do anything else.


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[Falcon67]

I manage a network that runs in buildings from the 1930s to modern code current buildings built in the last 10 years. We also get a lot of lightening here. I can say with confidence that I've had more switching blown up in modern buildings than I have in the old crappy who-knows-whats-in-the-walls. You can read into that what you'd like, but it's interesting. We still have copper for fax and certain POTS lines - all those carry surge protectors recommended by the IP-Twisted pair converter mfg.

Shielded cable should be bonded only on one end. Bonding both ends creates a ground path - not good.