Yet another "how do I weld?" thread

[BFBOB]

Please be patient with me!
I expect this has been covered, but I haven't found info that directly answers my question.

I've been welding on a very occasional basis for close to half a century,
and am 99% self taught with the help of books and now videos. I'm good at gas welding, found it very easy to learn. Barely adequate (sometimes not adequate) at stick welding, and did well TIG welding 1/4" aluminum during a brief stint in the University machine shop. Never tried MIG.

Now, the question. Clearly, the consensus is that for what I have the most trouble with, auto sheet metal, TIG is the best. But, many many times I read that it is very difficult. It seems to me, based on my very brief experience and some knowledge of the process, that the technique is very similar to gas welding... and I find that easy.

Heat in one hand, rod in the other, off we go. Am I missing something? (besides the $ factor, that is)

 

[sailah]

TIG welding sheet metal I find to be easy but I have no formal training just hood time. I love the control I get with tig and how close I can get to the weld with my eyes, helps me finesse what I'm doing. I never really get into really thin stuff though.

I had very little welding experience at all before I bought a TIG. I just started doing it, practicing, and learning by watching YouTube makers. Eventually I bought a nice Lincoln Precision TIG 185 which is what I use today and I love it.

I guess TIG welding can be thought of like motorcycling. How hard can it be you have a throttle on one side, brakes, clutch? I've been riding bikes my entire life and it's just natural. But I can't ride at the skill level of pros either.

If you find gas welding to be a natural fit, I think you'll adapt very well to TIG welding. It is not cheap to enter though. I first bought my Chinese tig welder for $300 used, my 185 Lincoln was $900 used and I added at least that again in collets, tungstens, gas lens setups, multiple torches, argon bottle, filler etc.

 

[gizmo1973]

I do not find TIG to be the best methode at auto sheet metal.
I always use MIG welding for thin auto work. The reason is that TIG welding gets much more hot, during welding. And therefore the metal bends much more and is not so easy to control...

 

[TauntDevil]

I think depending on what you are doing, it can be easy or difficult. For me, I can tig good enough to penetrate a full weld but I have the biggest difficulty of making it look good from having a shaky hand and just not enough practice (im guessing). Which for what I work with, is very important.

Also, one thing that is difficult is welding thicker metal onto automotive sheet metal (which I assume is 22gauge? The car I am working on has 22-24 gauge stuff). Mainly the issue I find is not the welding itself but just having to be low amps to not blow through the thin metal. Being such low amps, its just better (In my opinion) to use a mig for that stuff which I have a lot of practice with.
So that could be hard but mainly tig is very very concentrated. So the heat, instead of spreading a bit more, it is a pinhole and thus more quickly will melt the metal away most likely faster than one can fill as they go. But this is just from my small experience. I am no professional and still learning with tig (Sold mig to help buy my tig) and this is just from my own learning experience. I too am self taught and only recently have watched a few tig videos as many dont apply to what I am trying to work on daily (automotive).

 

[sberry]

You want to be a welder or fix a car? Welding companies went to all out war for this market and have near perfected the 200 compact mig for automotive/hobby work. If you don't have one you need it. Run 023 in it for a steady diet of sheetmetal. For the rest of your life 030.

These machines are the real workhorse of this kind of thing and in general repair. Once a guy gets one he finds out he doesn't need much else.

 

[MarkG]

MIG is all I have, so that's my choice! Use a series of overlapping tacks and skip around or you'll blow holes. Grind, putty, prime, paint. Done. Works for me. I have a Hobart 140 MIG and don't think TIG would have been any better-----maybe for a skilled TIG welder. You're going to be grinding anyway----it's not a 'show weld'!

 

[jimgood]

The reason TIG is popular is because it limits the heat affected zone (HAZ) which reduces distortion. Mig is the same but slightly less controllable. Welding thin sheet with O/A is possible but it's more difficult because of the larger HAZ. But there is a guy from Great Britain that demonstrates the technique with and without filler. Has a DVD. I'll see if I can find a link.

Also, Henrob makes torches that have better control with the low pressures needed for finer tips. And, supposedly, there are regulators that work better at low pressures.

Edit: Yep. Here's a link get to David Gardiner's video (page loads very slow so be patient): http://metalshapingzone.com/epages/...d5-9af5-4b32-b689-b436b9abb456/Categories/DVD

If you go to about minute 7 in this video, he starts showing the O/A welding technique. But the whole video is worth watching at only a little over 8 min:

 

[Tig Master]

Tig is a great choice for panels.
The draw backs are. Cost for the beginning set up,quite slow this will make it harder for body shops to make any money as the time factor effects shop costs to compete for the job.There are many body shops that don't even have employees in their shop that can tig weld,let alone have a machine in their shop.Mig has the upper hand there.I have been tig welding for 30+ years and don't even own a mig.Tig on a panel requires some seat time and a newer machine will really help in the learning curve.Yes a scratch tig and no pedal can do the job that is how I learned tig welding.I also worked for a large airline and got to see first hand what a tig is capable of doing.Add the benefits of a foot pedal pulse and an inverter the program will all come together.Have done a few cars as projects with a dynasty 200 dx set up real sweet. Electrode size and filler choices are quite vast and have to be taken into consideration.There are also some other areas where tig shines one being gun repair here some side line jobs soon pay for your argon.Just sayin you do a panel with mig and compare the weld with tig and you have a cleanup job way less with tig than mig.
Just look at a Ron Coval video and see some pleasing results. The mig can still be utilized but not for me.

T

 

[rsanter]

TIG is great on automotive sheetmetal. At least the body part.
People generally don't because it is harder to do and slower.

If you know TIG then stick with it.
Mig is easy to learn if you already have the concept of welding. It is self feeding arc welding and will go faster than TIG

Bob

 

[wbrian63]

The stuff David Gardiner does is nothing short of miraculous, but he is (in my opinion) first and foremost a panel beater. I have his DVD and it is simply AMAZING.

That being said, because he has such marvelous skills with a simple hammer, spoon and various dolly devices, he doesn't care much about the distortion that comes with fusion welding panels together. He literally starts at one end and works his way along, pulling the panels into aligment as he goes. It if the panel ends up all wonky when he's done, well, that's what the hammer and other tools are there for.

I've spent the last 2+ years rebuilding a 1976 Mercedes and there was a LOT of rust to contend with. I've gotten really good at dealing with .023 wire and making parts fit nice and tight. With patience and slow progress, a MIG is plenty good for the work at hand.

I have a meager Hobart 187 unit, and I use solid wire with Argon/CO2 mix. I keep the unit turned down to 2 on most panel work, and just increase the wire speed when things want to blow through. This works fine on materials of about .025 to .035 or so thick.

Thicker stuff, like unit-body framework is around .060 to as much as .100 thick - I turn the machine up to 3 for that work.

I'd like to learn to TIG one day - but that's mostly for the "coolness" of what can be done with that method.

Robert's (MP&C) thread on the work he does is a great source of instruction for how to work panel patching using a MIG welder, a thin cutoff disk in a die grinder and patience. He is top-drawer, skillwise, as well as a good teacher.

http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=182565

He readily answers questions and I've learned a lot from his instruction.

 

[Vegaman_Dan]

I have both TIG and MIG setups and just starting with the TIG side. MIG I can usually avoid blowing holes if I go slow enough with lots of cooling time between spots, but I get in a hurry and- yeah, holes.

TIG- I was amazed being able to dial down to less than 10 amps and able to fusion weld 22 ga sheet metal. It was agonizingly slow, but it could be done. Adding filler rod is where I get in trouble there. Too much heat and more holes.

Practice, exposure, time, and confidence. All will happen if you keep at it.

 

[zkling]

You will find DC tig has a more focused heat zone vs the torch. Any thing a mig will do a adequate tig power supply will do just slower and requiring a bit more skill. Mig was designed for speed and ease of operator training.

 

[countryroad82]

I'm one for the mig camp. But I also don't have much experience with TIG just enough to realize I don't have time to relearn my process just to have to slow down. But I'm a production kind of guy. As soon as I pull a vehicle out of the shop another one is rolling in and there's at least 5-10 more that are behind it. I litterally just can't feasibly shut up the shop for a few weeks to sit and figure a new process out. When I retire, maybe. But I've got awhile before that!!! If you can TIG you can MIG I feel.

 

[Jere]

Skill is the key factor, the gear you use is important too. Oxy ace gets a bad rapport simple because most don't put the time in to learn.It has been considered ideal for sheet metal for a long time and still is depending on whom the conversation is with. It is a vanishing technique so that doesn't help with its popularity either. Tig is not the best choice, that opinion can go either way. I suggest going with a method you are already accomplished with if the job requires good results.

I know there is a big following for henrob but any small light weight gas torch will make a big difference in welding control. Going from a midsized Victor torch to a meco midget is a night and day difference. Also upgrading to smaller jewelers hose can add as much improvement.

 

[sberry]

I torch welded and brazed sheet all my younger days. I can count on one hand the times I done it since moving to mig. There was probably a 5 yrs stretch I didnt pick up a stick either.
I talked about this in another thread. Experience doesn't always help a lot and this is living proof. Anyone that tells this guy to get anything but a 200 compact mig is doing him a disservice. Having a lot of knowledge doesn't always get the right machine for him and this is a different issue than how you learned or even what your expertise is in.
Some of the poorest advice comes from great welders. He will read this and be as confused as when he started.

 

[trentonmakes]

Re: Yet another "how do I weld?" thread

Now, the question. Clearly, the consensus is that for what I have the most trouble with, auto sheet metal, TIG is the best.

Heat in one hand, rod in the other, off we go. Am I missing something? (besides the $ factor, that is)

Nope, that's basically it!

That said, I'm with the mig camp, only because that's what I'm used too. Tig I believe is much cleaner weld, but I have limited experience with it.

I think it's also easier for a beginner or myself to control the heat better with a mig, again that's what I Am experienced with.

Question is.... Do YOU, already have a mig welder or are you looking to purchase a welder?


Sent from my LG-D801 using Tapatalk

 

[sberry]

I'm one for the mig camp. But I also don't have much experience with TIG just enough to realize I don't have time to relearn my process just to have to slow down. But I'm a production kind of guy. As soon as I pull a vehicle out of the shop another one is rolling in and there's at least 5-10 more that are behind it. I litterally just can't feasibly shut up the shop for a few weeks to sit and figure a new process out. When I retire, maybe. But I've got awhile before that!!! If you can TIG you can MIG I feel.

Tig isn't any mystery and it doesn't take tat long to learn and I think the view of it is often skewed by pros as well. Its often used in an environment that is critical, a lot right beside sticks which in my opinion may really be more difficult but while it may take work to truly master a critical app the process isn't difficult.
You don't need to sit a dew weeks to figure it out but in your case after you get it and lose some fascination you will be back to the mig and soon the tig will get a nice layer of body dust which increases yearly.
The small mig is near revolutionary in the sense of the work it does at the cost. Ranks right up there with he round hay baler and the battery drill. It doesn't look so as it was not the start, there are other methods which can do some of the same work but the ease speed and quality cant be beat.
I am a career stick welder. I went to welding school and never really worked on wire which was a shame on my part but I was 10 yrs in before I ran a solid wire and there was really a bit of a learning curve and still have trouble with 2 knobs.
I was in construction and machine repair, if you asked me at 30 I would have said AC/DC stick machine, today it would be 200 compact mig as a first welder for home/hobby/general maintenance with a bit of minor fab up to NASCAR chassis and cage.

 

[sberry]

You can add more adjustments to a wire feeder than they do but they try to hit a sweet spot to keep it simple. The advanced features they do offer are mostly cosmetic and are for marketing and sales as the price on a basic feeder has not went up significantly in 30 yrs due to vendors selling cheap.
They are a bargain due to this and to raise prices they have to add stuff. Stuff really not needed, these are really tuned around 030 solid. They run 023 well as smaller units really cause they are on better circuits and cords I think but 035 doesn't help them much.
They are choked for 030 and they are perfect.
The Lowes or HD 180 is a model they been making forever and jacket for that market but the 5 speed manual is spot on, you can spend a lot more and never come as close.
The Hobarts are good too. The only loser there was a 180 that is long gone. They tried it with a 4 speed but ended back with 7 and 9 I believe.
Miller had a 175 with some kind of auto set you couldn't get around. My neighbor has one, it can be managed but wouldn't pay extra for it.

 

[sberry]

I could pretty much do all my work with a 211 class machine. There would be occasions it would be a pinch slower but it probably wouldn't be worth it to upgrade and even if I did it wouldnt be replacement but addition.
If I was serious about auto body the extra outlay would be minor and would have an 023 machine just for that work. I do the occasional job with 030 which gives these units some range and punch for fab, its not a problem to dial it down a minute or 2 for light work but changing wire gets old fast.
If rebuilding a car body then it probably wouldnt be an issue but these machines have so much use beyond that, or can have use I should say and I don't like the tiny wire.

 

[Kielbasavw]

I find that tig, doing auto body, is only good if you can get the fitment between the 2 panels 100% with no gap. The extra time it takes to get that fitment depends on your skill which takes alot of practice. But with tig you can control the warpage from precise heat input. Also tig welds are a bit softer which also helps with your panel beating and filing (metal finish).

Mig is alot more forgiving on panel fitment. Alot quicker to tack up. But is a bit harder weld and finishing takes a little longer.

My personal preference depends. If it's a tricky patch panel to make, I go for mig. If it's a really easy piece to make that is really simple to get zero gaps. Tig would be my choice.

Also keeping in mind the position you will be in while welding.

 

[pi_guy]

My .02 is that TIG can be used in most conditions, and a little patience and practice will do wonders. It is not best for production body work but excellent for high end restoration.
In my garage I have a miller multimatic 200 with si bronze wire in the machine. I demoed the process and it works great. I have not used my setup yet as I have been fishing in Boston Harbor departing from Hull for the last two weeks.
This process is even better on the no distortion function since Si bronze melts at 1700 not 2400.
But when I return from fishing I will play and report back. My purpose is to be able to do chassis repair at the track, many earlier formula race cars were brazed together.

 

[Jere]

I torch welded and brazed sheet all my younger days. I can count on one hand the times I done it since moving to mig. There was probably a 5 yrs stretch I didnt pick up a stick either.
I talked about this in another thread. Experience doesn't always help a lot and this is living proof. Anyone that tells this guy to get anything but a 200 compact mig is doing him a disservice. Having a lot of knowledge doesn't always get the right machine for him and this is a different issue than how you learned or even what your expertise is in.
Some of the poorest advice comes from great welders. He will read this and be as confused as when he started.

That is a perfect example of narrow mindedness. Look at the the professionals that restore and build body skins from scratch. I can guarantee that not everyone of them is using this or that process and they have tried various methods. Just because you personally may not have properly learned a technique and gave up or had a bad experience doesn't mean the same will be true for anyone else. There is no" one size fits all" when it comes to welding sheet metal. Each method has its own merits. To pretend otherwise is the great disservice.

 

[sberry]

That is a perfect example of narrow mindedness. Look at the the professionals that restore and build body skins from scratch

Exactly the opposite. There are some highly specialized professionals that do it that way. For every one of them there are 9 more guys like Country Roads here bumping out cars every day. If this is a guy wanting to build world class specialized reproduction parts the this would be something to consider.
If the idea is to fix the car and do most things found on the home auto front including some body work then the 200 mig those guys sweated their *** off with this crowd as poster children is for them.

 

[sberry]

Just because you personally may not have properly learned a technique and gave up or had a bad experience doesn't mean the same will be true for anyone else.

I was trying to say this without saying so, I have personally mastered this, I have all the machines, could buy any new one I wanted, I do not use this when I want to get something done.
Welded 2 jobs today, 1 stick and one wire. Could have used wire on both. Used a torch on another for heat. Use a spooly on alum anymore and havnt made a tig weld in a decade, maybe 10 or 15 thousand jobs ago or so.
My world would come to a stop without a mig.

 

[Jere]

Exactly the opposite. There are some highly specialized professionals that do it that way. For every one of them there are 9 more guys like Country Roads here bumping out cars every day. If this is a guy wanting to build world class specialized reproduction parts the this would be something to consider.
If the idea is to fix the car and do most things found on the home auto front including some body work then the 200 mig those guys sweated their *** off with this crowd as poster children is for them.

Thats more like it, much better answer. Put the uses/needs in perspective then look for the welder to fit. Blindly swearing of all other methods without the context is not the way to give advice.

 

[BFBOB]

Wow, lots of info/opinions!
To answer one question, I currently have gas and AC stick.
I'm good with gas, poor with stick, and that leads me to suspect I'd find it easier to learn TIG than MIG.
As for filling gaps, I find it very easy with gas, nearly impossible with stick (gap meaning rod diameter or bigger). So, I would expect gap filling to be easier with TIG than MIG, but this contradicts what several of you have said from experience.
My clearest need is to be able to weld sheet metal (auto body) well. This is just for myself, so speed isn't much of an issue. As has been pointed out, with gas, the HAZ is so large the distortion is unacceptable. That has been my experience. My tries at stick welding sheet metal with 1/16" rod have been disastrous.

So far, your comments are leaning me more toward a small TIG machine. Small, to keep the cost under astronomical; I can still use the stick welder on thicker stuff - I can stick weld 1/4" or so acceptably.

More ideas welcome!

 

[trentonmakes]

Here's a short video I dug up, to help makeup your mind.

Gives a couple tips as well.

http://hardcorepontiacs.com/videos/series08.wmv

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[jimgood]

As for filling gaps, I find it very easy with gas, nearly impossible with stick (gap meaning rod diameter or bigger). So, I would expect gap filling to be easier with TIG than MIG, but this contradicts what several of you have said from experience.

I've found it easy to fill gaps with MIG, which is a testament to my wonderful DeWalt metal cutting chop saw that won't make a vertical cut for ****. Every joint has two sides that have gaposis (unless I waste a lot of time trying to grind and file to perfection).

And I would think TIG would be just as easy. I've done it just as easily with O/A so I can't imagine it would be any more difficult with TIG.

 

[trackwelder]

Mig is king with filling gaps

 

[Ditchdigger]

It really boils down to one question.

Are you planning on doing any metal finishing to the welded area? If yes then use TIG or gas. If a coat of filler over the area is acceptable then go ahead and MIG away. A MIG weld with "hard wire" is much harder to work with the hammer and dolly.

I work in high end euro auto restoration. I do a lot of sheet metal repair on vintage Ferraris, Austin Healeys, Abarths and and the like. I use all welding methods where they are needed. Well except stick, we have no use for that anywhere.

If I am welding a seam on a body panel it is usually TIG so I can work the weld afterwards to address the inevitable shrinking that welding causes.

On alloy bodied cars it is always TIG. This can be very difficult and I use a rotisserie to facilitate easier access to hard to reach places.

 

[gnpenning]

Has anyone used panel adhesive? Sorry for the side track but I think it might fit??

 

[king nero]

The reason TIG is popular is because it limits the heat affected zone (HAZ) which reduces distortion.

That sure must have been MIG?