York Bullet Vise

[Bull]

I wont have a pic until later, but has anyone ever seen a bullet-style vise marked "York"? When I saw it I assumed it was a Wilton, but no such luck. It has the York brand stamped on it, and I think a few other numbers, but no "USA" markings. Part of me fears it might be a foreign knockoff, but for $30, I risked it.

The vise thread on here has a bullet marked "Acme" but nothing like what I have.

 

[Monte]

www.york.cz

 

[Bull]

www.york.cz

How long have they been in business for?

Something is wrong with that website; I can't read a word of it

 

[Monte]

vice looks like this i guess ?
http://www.axminster.co.uk/york-york-mechanics-vices-prod23694/


try the english site
http://www.york.cz/en/index.jsp?

They produce vices since 1921 and already sold more than 3 million of them regarding their site

 

[Bull]

No, it doesn't look like that at all. It really looks just like the Wilton bullets, as far as I can tell.

One mounting ear is broken off of the swivel base, but I don't think it will bother me much. I'm not going to do Hercules-type cranking on it, anyway. Maybe I could find a new base, anyway.

 

[Flatland Dave]

cool!

 

[Bull]

So, now that the pics are up, I am dying for someone to tell me if this is definitely an import.

If so, then some foreign company stole that dynamic jaw design!

 

[alex71]

certainly looks similar to a wilton, but if you put a wilton machinsts' vise of similar vintage next to it I think you will determine that they did not come from the same mold.

 

[Lookin4'67Galaxieconv]

The vise body is not nearly as long as a Wilton bullet.

 

[bmwpower]

It's got patent markings. It has to be US, right?

 

[Bull]

I guess it's not the main body that screams "Wilton" to me, but that funky dynamic jaw shape.

The patent stamp is giving me some hope for US origin, but I am ignorant regarding whether foreign manufacturers also use them. I will try to pull the numbers and run them through Google.

 

[Olafur]

This looks like a genuine YORK to me. They have been making vices since 1921 as Monte pointed out, and exported all over the world - including North America.

Since YORK is Czech company this history bit is interesting:

The Wilton legend begins, while Hitler was victimizing much of Europe including Czechoslovakia, a Czech citizen by the name of Hugh W. Vogl stood on a Chicago street corner in 1941 surveying the area when a man walked up and asked him what is the name of his new company. Grasping for a name, Mr. Vogl looked up at the nearby street sign that said Wilton Avenue, and the rest is history.

And:

The Company’s first patent was for the “bullet style vise.” It was applied for August 1st, 1941 and was granted on March 3rd, 1942. Vises made before the approval were cast with “patent pending.” This vise is what most people recognize as a Wilton vise when they see one. This design is still being produced today as the “Tradesman” and “Machinist Vise,” and is one of their top models.

 

[Bull]

So, is York a respected company in Europe? I feared that it might be of Asian origin, but if it is a quality European tool, I will be proud to own and use it, especially for $30.

Any way to determine the age?

I haven't had a chance to try and read the patent numbers yet. I will by this evening.

 

[Bull]

The numbers for the patent are slightly hard to read, but I am nearly positive they are 685893. That yields no relevant results in Google Patents. Any ideas?

 

[bmwpower]

The numbers for the patent are slightly hard top read, but I am nearly positive they are 685893. That yields no relevant results in Google Patents. Any ideas?

Seems to be a European patent number of sorts. But for the life of me, I cannot find it.

Tried here as well....http://www.epo.org/

 

[Brad54]

That thing looks beefy as hell... I'd use it.

It's not uncommon for swivel bases to have only three mounting ears. You could grind the remainder of that one off when you clean it up, or repair it like someone on here did in another thread. You could also probably just drill a hole through your bench top and hide it under a washer, which would still give you some clamping force to hold it evenly to your bench.

-Brad

 

[Bull]

It is beefy, and has the widest jaws of any vise I've picked up so far. I think they are 6".

I am surprised that, here in the vise capital of the internet, there haven't been more replies with details about this thing, or "I have one too" tales.

 

[kc-steve]

This looks like a genuine YORK to me. They have been making vices since 1921 as Monte pointed out, and exported all over the world - including North America.

Since YORK is Czech company this history bit is interesting:


And:

In case anyone is interested, you are quoting me in your post. It has nothing to do with York, but the founder of Wilton was from Czechoslovakia.

Thanks for the plug though.

Steve

 

[Bull]

In case anyone is interested, you are quoting me in your post. It has nothing to do with York, but the founder of Wilton was from Czechoslovakia.

Thanks for the plug though.

Steve

Steve, that is your web page?

Is it mere coincidence that the founder of Wilton was Czech, and the oddly-shaped dynamic jaw on this apparently Czech York is just like that of a Wilton?

 

[kc-steve]

Steve, that is your web page?

Is it mere coincidence that the founder of Wilton was Czech, and the oddly-shaped dynamic jaw on this apparently Czech York is just like that of a Wilton?

Yup, and Nick (aka: Autopts) gave me some of the info there from his own contacts. If you look at the "Sources" at the page bottom you will see "Friends at GJ."

As far as the vise,it looks like someone copied someone, but logically, Wilton's patent has lasted through the test of time. In other words, if that's York's design, don't you think there would have been a court battle over it?

And judging by the fact that no one seems to be able to find the York patent anywhere, then maybe it is either bogus, or maybe was even part of the Nazi Regime that has long since disintegrated. It's still interesting though.

Just some thoughts,
Steve

 

[kc-steve]

Bull, would you mind if I used one of your photos of your York to add this interesting info to that web page?

Thanks,
Steve

 

[Olafur]

Yup, and Nick (aka: Autopts) gave me some of the info there from his own contacts. If you look at the "Sources" at the page bottom you will see "Friends at GJ."

As far as the vise,it looks like someone copied someone, but logically, Wilton's patent has lasted through the test of time. In other words, if that's York's design, don't you think there would have been a court battle over it?

And judging by the fact that no one seems to be able to find the York patent anywhere, then maybe it is either bogus, or maybe was even part of the Nazi Regime that has long since disintegrated. It's still interesting though.

Just some thoughts,
Steve

Hi, and thanks for gathering the info on your website.

Regarding the patent: I don't think YORK was in any position to guard it's design in the US. back in 1941 and even long time after that. Czechoslovakia was under brutal German occupation until may 9. 1945, shortly after it became part of the eastern bloc for over 40 years. wiki article

 

[Olafur]

Google image search has few pics of similar york's.
I.e of you search for: york Svěrák

Here is one:

Unfortunately I don't know much about york vices, but I have seen a few over here, including the "bullet" design. Since Czechoslovakia was one of the frontrunners of the industrial revolution and had impressive industry before the war it is tempting to assume they knew what they were doing and quality should be fine.

 

[kc-steve]

Hi, and thanks for gathering the info on your website.

Regarding the patent: I don't think YORK was in any position to guard it's design in the US. back in 1941 and even long time after that. Czechoslovakia was under brutal German occupation until may 9. 1945, shortly after it became part of the eastern bloc for over 40 years. wiki article

You are welcome.

True. But York still existed long after the Nazi occupation while Wilton was becoming a major manufacturer of vises, making lots of money from the design. So my thinking is still valid. Either the York patent is bogus, or the patent was filed with the Nazi Regime and is long lost now. They would not be able to defend a patent that no longer can be used as evidence in court (or no longer exists).

Under the Soviet Bloc, I think Czechoslovakia was one of the few more "capitalistic" style satellites. After reading the Wiki article you might be right though, "The Communist government completely nationalized the means of production and established a command economy." But that brings up another question, there is no way the founder of Wilton would have foresaw this all happening and allow him to steal another company's design.

I sure wouldn't waste my time building a company for years only to have it yanked away because I stole someone else's design.

Steve

 

[kc-steve]

We can probably hypothesize about the events "till the cows come home" and never know what really happened 70 years ago.

Steve

 

[autopts]

Yup, and Nick (aka: Autopts) gave me some of the info there from his own contacts. If you look at the "Sources" at the page bottom you will see "Friends at GJ."

As far as the vise,it looks like someone copied someone, but logically, Wilton's patent has lasted through the test of time. In other words, if that's York's design, don't you think there would have been a court battle over it?

And judging by the fact that no one seems to be able to find the York patent anywhere, then maybe it is either bogus, or maybe was even part of the Nazi Regime that has long since disintegrated. It's still interesting though.

Just some thoughts,
Steve

Fellas, I found this thread quite informative, I always thought York was a cheap knockoff that copied the Wilton design was was so small that Wilton didn't bother to presue them in court. I never knew who and where they were made, nor their long history in the Tool market. Once more the GJ members put the pieces of this puzzle and made it a very interesting thread. To think the Wilton concept may have come from the York design!! Great work guys!!

 

[Olafur]

@Steve
Back in 1941 the patent system was even more fragmented than now. A US patent had little (or even nothing) to do with patents elsewhere in the world. Each country had it's own rules and patent laws (or lack there of). Even the LEGAL concept of private ownership did not exists i.e. in Russia back then. I dare not speculate about intellectual property rights in Czechoslovakia back then.. So the term "stealing" might not apply in this case. And even though the patent number on Bulls vice does not refer to any US patent it could be reference to patent elsewhere. UK, French, Australia .. or who knows where.

A.F.A.I.K trade relations between the east bloc and US approached zero during the cold war. So aside from legal and political complications it is possible YORK (nationalised or not) had nothing to gain defending their design in the US. For them US was probably like another planet beyond the iron curtain.

It is also possible the founder of Wilton didn't steal anything. It still could be the other way around. I don't know when YORK started to make their "bullets". Or perhaps this was his design all along.

 

[Bull]

Steve, feel free to use any of the pictures. That would be cool. If you need a better one, let me know and I will try to take one with my wife's camera.

Now, since this company is still in business and making vises, though not the style I have, how can we even know if this was made during the Czech experience as a part of the German Reich? That would only be a short window of time. Without an authority to date this vise, isn't it all a guess?

I wonder if I send the company an e-mail, if they'd get back to me...?

 

[Monte]

try it

 

[Bull]

try it

I just sent them a short, polite message. I hope that someone there is interested in the history of the company and one of their products that made it alllllllll the way over here!

 

[Lump]

Good luck with that, Bull. I would love to see the answer to this interesting mystery. I have had mixed results when I have tried this tactic with other companies. For example, years ago the Johnson fishing reel company sent me lots of detailed information about production dates of past models, etc. That was the "good" experience. The not-so-good was when I contacted Westclox about an oversize demonstrator version I have of their famous "Big Ben" alarm clocks. Their reply was basically that they don't care beans about their past products, and were not even interested in seeing a photo.

Again, good luck!

 

[kc-steve]

Guys, I think we need to be VERY CAREFUL here about rumors and propaganda. This could cause the NEW and USED Wilton market to take a dive in sales and in prices for used Bullets. We shouldn't even imply that Wilton's Bullet is a knock off without positive proof, defensible in court.

Steve

 

[kc-steve]

. . . From Wilton's standpoint, all they have to present in a court case is the fact that their patent has never been challenged, so the tough legal defense lies in our court.

Correction, YOUR court. I'm sticking with Wilton, for now anyway.

Steve

 

[Monte]

Maybe Mr. Vogl was once employed at York before he left to the US ?

 

[Lump]

Steve,
You have a point, in that we should be careful with idle speculation which someone at Wilton might object to. No sense making any one unhappy with Garage Journal. But from a legal standpoint, Wilton would have the burden of proof on their side, and they would have to prove that someone stated this claim as a certain "FACT" which they claimed was definitely true. Then the aggrieved party would need to prove that this public claim cost them business. That's tough to do in any case. But in this case, a bunch of tool collectors who claim to like Wilton's products are simply wondering and speculating on a web forum about what might have happened or could have happened long ago.

I'm no attorney, but I work with them often enough in my own business enterprise to have some idea what they would tell me if I asked them about this.

Again, I think you are right that we should be careful what we write about, making sure it widely understood that we are merely guessing and speculating about long-ago history. But I doubt that there is any danger of any litigation.

 

[Bull]

We are all just shrugging our shoulders here and speculating, no one has claimed anything as a fact, right?

 

[kc-steve]

Well, NOW we are making it perfectly clear.

But frankly, with all the hungry attorneys out there willing to take a marginal case, I don't have the money to hire one to defend myself even if they are only trying to get an out-of-court settlement, ya know what I mean?

Steve

 

[ZRX61]

We are all just shrugging our shoulders here and speculating, no one has claimed anything as a fact, right?

People are just assuming it's a US patent.... there's as very good chance it isn't..

 

[kc-steve]

People are just assuming it's a US patent.... there's as very good chance it isn't..

Nope, I was the one that initially suggested MAYBE that York's patent might have been filed with the Nazi Regime sometime between 1933 and 1944, which would be destroyed, lost, or irrelevant now.

Steve

 

[airbuff101]

Bull,
If that was mine, I would draw nostrils on the front of the screw and stick a curly tail on the back............a couple ears on the front jaw.
Paint it pink.
It has a definate porcine aura about it.

I like it! Cute little ******.

airbuff