York Bullet Vise

[bl00]

The patent could be for any part of the vise and not necessarily the bullet shape or general design. We've seen many vises here with associated patent numbers that are for anything from parts of the swivel base, to adjustment screws, to slide construction, swivel jaws, jaw faces, etc.

cool vise

 

[Bull]

Paydirt! I just received a reply from a very nice fellow at York! Here is what he wrote:

Dear Dave

The bench vice with this patent was produced in Czech republic in our company , i send you information about producing these vices :

This bench vices started to produce in Czech republic and patent is from 1934 ( Mr. Dohnal ) ,

Mr.Vogl ( he was the merchant in the Prague ) bought these vices from our company .

Mr. Vogl was the jew . Before the second world war he went to U.S.A. and he did copy these vices and in the U.S.A. he founded company Wilton ( 1941 after street WILTON ) and he started to produce after our vices these bench vices and even he gived in U.S.A. patent for producing these vices ( but it was in the send wolrd was and in our country anybody did not know about it … )

I hope that you inderstand from my this short email the history of these bench vices .


Best regards Robert Svirk

 

[oldtools]

So I guess the bullit vise below to the Czech. This explain why the Wilton bullit look like a refined version of the Czech bullit vise. It is a nice little vise.

 

[Lump]

Bull,
Wow, FABULOUS story! It's so cool to learn the history behind such things. I love it. And if I were you, I would love that "bullet vise" too!

 

[kc-steve]

Paydirt! I just received a reply from a very nice fellow at York! Here is what he wrote:

Dear Dave

The bench vice with this patent was produced in Czech republic in our company , i send you information about producing these vices :

This bench vices started to produce in Czech republic and patent is from 1934 ( Mr. Dohnal ) ,

Mr.Vogl ( he was the merchant in the Prague ) bought these vices from our company .

Mr. Vogl was the jew . Before the second world war he went to U.S.A. and he did copy these vices and in the U.S.A. he founded company Wilton ( 1941 after street WILTON ) and he started to produce after our vices these bench vices and even he gived in U.S.A. patent for producing these vices ( but it was in the send wolrd was and in our country anybody did not know about it … )

I hope that you inderstand from my this short email the history of these bench vices .


Best regards Robert Svirk

Nice work Bull. Now we just need an interpreter.

My interpretation is that Mr. Vogl was a merchant in Prague CZ who purchased York Bullet vises to resell. He also was a Jew so he fled CZ before the Nazis invaded CZ for his own protection. Once in the USA Mr. Vogl then manufactured and sold similar Bullet vises. However, WW II kept the York Company from pursuing legal action against Vogl.

In addition, the York Bullet was patented in 1934. We probably guessed as much but hearing it from York adds some validity to it. I don't think we can call it 100-percent factual though unless someone from the "other side" of the story were to step up to the plate and admit as much.

Interesting!

Thanks,
Steve

 

[Monte]

So York in czech republic was the inventor of the "Bullet" design ?

 

[kc-steve]

So York in czech republic was the inventor of the "Bullet" design ?

95-percent sure

It does LOOK that way. The one thing that bothers me though is that "Robert Svirk" is saying things in his email that shows he is also reading the Internet. When he says Mr. Vogl, "founded company Wilton ( 1941 after street WILTON )" the reference to Wilton Avenue being used as the company name is ONLY found on my Wilton History web page. The sources are private contacts that used to be Wilton employees. So I it makes ya wonder, ya know?

And then we also don't know how the sale agreement was written between Walter Meier Co and Wilton owners when the Wilton Co. was purchased. So to be safe, I think we should TRY and give Wilton the benefit of the doubt. Someone from Wilton confirming what is in the email above would cinch it 100-percent. Until then, lets play it safe and give Wilton the benefit of the doubt, as hard as that is to do.

Steve

 

[autopts]

Maybe Mr. Svirk reads the Junkyard Tools Blog! I never, ever thought that one person showing a little York vise he came acorss would give us all back so many things we never knew. Watch, the bids price will suddenly change on this vise.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-York-Be...394?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item35b40ea93a

 

[kc-steve]

Maybe Mr. Svirk reads the Junkyard Tools Blog! . . .

Nick, maybe your contacts can read this and shed a little more light on the subject.

Steve

 

[Lump]

If I understand the information I have been given by US patent attys in the past about patents and trademark law, a company does not own patent rights to any product or product design IN A PARTICULAR COUNTRY, unless they have applied for a patent in that country. WWII may have preoccupied York, so that they did not apply for a design patent in the USA. who knows? But unless they held a US design patent before someone began manufacturing vises of that design here under the Wilton name, then it would have very very difficult for York to ever pursue it.

Basically, we're all very impressed with Bull's new vise!

 

[v7guy]

what a nifty turn of events. it'd be interesting to hear from wilton

 

[kc-steve]

If I understand the information I have been given by US patent attys in the past about patents and trademark law, a company does not own patent rights to any product or product design IN A PARTICULAR COUNTRY, unless they have applied for a patent in that country. WWII may have preoccupied York, so that they did not apply for a design patent in the USA. who knows? But unless they held a US design patent before someone began manufacturing vises of that design here under the Wilton name, then it would have very very difficult for York to ever pursue it.

Basically, we're all very impressed with Bull's new vise!

Thanks Lump, that deserves to be posted again! But our "inquiring minds" are also wondering what if an "Asian" company files a patent within its borders then sells the Snapon knockoff here in the USA? Is their patent only good within their borders? Or any country that doesn't share a Snapon patent? What happens when Snapon tries to apply for a patent within the competing Asian country and is denied as being a duplicate patent?

Inquiring minds want to know!
Steve

 

[autopts]

Nick, maybe your contacts can read this and shed a little more light on the subject.

Steve

Steve, my Wilton contacts I can't reach anymore. Dirt naps maybe? You guys have made this thread one of the best and most imformative in my tenure as a GJ member. 5 Stars!!!

 

[GoodoleBoy]

Google image search has few pics of similar york's.
I.e of you search for: york Svěrák

Here is one:

Unfortunately I don't know much about york vices, but I have seen a few over here, including the "bullet" design. Since Czechoslovakia was one of the frontrunners of the industrial revolution and had impressive industry before the war it is tempting to assume they knew what they were doing and quality should be fine.

They the Czechs make some of the best guns pre WWII and today..I still shoot 400rds a year in each of the few guns made in in 1938 for their army, captured and used by the NAZI's, captured from nazis by the russkies, and then sold to me...

They also make fine woman, by mail order or other.

 

[Olafur]

In his reply to Bull's email, Mr Robert Svirk @YORK mentions Mr Dohnal regarding patent from 1934. I did some digging in the Czech online patent database. I could neither find said patent from 1934 nor anything regarding the patent number on Bull's vice. This could be the reason - from the website:

This database contains some Czech published patent applications, patents and utility models.

Ok, so some, not ALL patents are listed there.

However; After a brief search I discovered MR. Jan Dohnal who has six registrations in this database, from 1929 until 1938.

*NOTE: All titles are computer translations from Czech..

Here is the earliest one, I included pic from the application for fun. It seems Mr. Dohnal is representing "Dobříš METAL FACTORY" here. (computer translation)
Registration Number 34815
Filing date 18.01.1929
Registration Date 10.01.1931
Applicant/Holder DOBŘÍŠSKÁ TOVÁRNA KOVOVÉHO ZBOŽÍ JAN DOHNAL
self locking hand clamp

--------------------------------

This one looks like addition to the hand clamp above. If you click the link you can access link to the application file .pdf and see picture.
Registration Number 34816
Filing date 18.01.1929
Title Auxiliary device
Applicant/Holder DOBŘÍŠSKÁ TOVÁRNA KOVOVÉHO ZBOŽÍ JAN DOHNAL, XY
Registration Date 10.01.1931

-------------------------------------

Here Mr Dohnal is solo. This shock absorber is quite an invention.
Registration Number 65356
Filing date 31.10.1935
Applicant/Holder JAN DOHNAL, XY
Registration Date 25.09.1939
Fluid shock absorber

----------------------------------------
Here we have something familliar, and this seems to back up Mr Svirk story. It would be interesting to get translation of the application file:
Registration Number 67608
Filing date 27.09.1937
Registration Date 25.05.1940
Applicant/Holder JAN DOHNAL, XY
Save the sliding jaw in a solid body vice

---------------------------------
This is the last one from Mr Dohnal I could find. It is interesting to note the time-span between "filing date" and "registration date" One explanation could be the Czech patent office was closed during the war.
Registration Number 75784
Filing date 15.02.1938
Title Chuck for drill bits
Applicant/Holder JAN DOHNAL, XY
Inventor JAN DOHNAL, XY
Publication Date 15.04.1947
Registration Date 15.04.1947
Status Expired document
Type Application for the author’s certificate for invention
-----------------------------------------------


Searching for "vice" I also found this and the item really looks familiar. Here Mr. Dohnal is nowhere to be seen, this looks like a company name. Without understanding the application text it is anyone's guess what they are applying for here but the overall design is familiar.
Registration Number 76192
Title:"Adjusting the cap of the vise with solid leadership and ensuring the cylindrical tube matkové" (ohh yes, google translation)
Filing date 24.05.1946
Applicant/Holder ING. FR. HÖNIG & SPOL., XY

 

[kc-steve]

Nice work Olafur! You deserve a pat on the back for all the work you've done tracing that information down. It seems maybe Mr Svirk might have had the date(s) wrong on the patent.

There is one more thing that no one has mentioned here in the thread though. There is VERY LIKELY a difference in the steel used in both York and Wilton vises. That is an aspect that is very important in the making of a vise and wouldn't be included in the patent either.

But don't get me wrong, I am not trying to bash the York vise or its quality.

Thanks,
Steve

 

[Olafur]

Thanks Steve, I appreciate your compliment - right back at you!

I just find this story fascinating and the players interesting to say the least. Mr. Dohnal was clearly clever designer/inventor. And according to the Czech patent office he did indeed hold patent for vice design prior to 1941 (when Wilton got patent in US). What is (was) his story? Did he die during the war?

It seems Mr. Vogl was not a designer/inventor, he was a merchant (and a Jew) according to Mr. Svirk. Mr Svirk also mentions in his brief email the origin of the Wilton name - something he could have picked up from your website - but your website does not mention Mr Vogl being a Jew nor being a merchant in Czech. So it seems Mr Svirk has other sources for his information - quite possibly from within YORK company...

It seems unlikely we can dig any further, but I have yet to test my theory that the Czech patent office was closed during the war. If so it could add a piece to the puzzle.

 

[Bull]

I am going to send a thank you message to Mr. Svirk later this evening. maybe I will ask him if he has time to look at this thread, and especially those Czech patent documents.

Good work, Olafur!

 

[autopts]

I'm sure WHM Co. is yawning thru all of this! I did hear that Vogl got a mountain of money when he sold them the Wilton Tool Co. and went to Florida. Alex might still be kicking. Great investigative work fellas.

 

[kc-steve]

I'm sure WHM Co. is yawning thru all of this! I did hear that Vogl got a mountain of money when he sold them the Wilton Tool Co. and went to Florida. Alex might still be kicking. Great investigative work fellas.

You might be right. Walter Meier Co. treats their Wilton division like a rented mule based on the fact they don't care anything about them before 2002.

It might be worthwhile to short sell their stock or buy put options. Just kidding, don't listen to me. Seriously, you could lose your a$$.

Steve

 

[Lump]

Thanks Lump, that deserves to be posted again! But our "inquiring minds" are also wondering what if an "Asian" company files a patent within its borders then sells the Snapon knockoff here in the USA? Is their patent only good within their borders? Or any country that doesn't share a Snapon patent? What happens when Snapon tries to apply for a patent within the competing Asian country and is denied as being a duplicate patent?

Inquiring minds want to know!
Steve

Steve, I am currently traveling on the 675-mile3-long St Rt 127 Yard Sale, and it is a real pain to type on this tiny mini-laptop in the motel room. I will answer in detail when i return home sunday i am no atty, but I actually have experienced this issue quite a bit with my clients who manufacture high quality reproduction muscle car parts. In the meantime, I have gotten some great buys on tools during this trip. photos at eleven!

 

[kc-steve]

Kewl, I'm looking forward to the photos!

You sound like you are near Fairborn OH. Back in 1978 I installed the instrument landing system (ILS) at Wright Patterson AFB and then was contracted to maintain it for nine months until the AF personnel learned how. I was working for Wilcox Electric at the time but they've pretty much disappeared or absorbed into other companies. That was a very fun time in my life, friendly people.

Steve

 

[Bull]

So, that York bullet on eBay sold for $86 plus shipping. There is NO way that happened without influence from this thread. Apparently, York prices are now UP, at least for the short term and for those who are armed with knowledge from this discussion.

 

[Olafur]

Hi Bull, and thanks for making this tread so interesting. Any word from Mr Svirk yet?

My theory -that the Czech patent office was closed during the war - does not hold up. I was just considering the situation in Czechoslovakia during and after the war and what Mr Svirk said in his email. Here in Bold:

Mr. Vogl was the jew . Before the second world war he went to U.S.A. and he did copy these vices and in the U.S.A. he founded company Wilton ( 1941 after street WILTON ) and he started to produce after our vices these bench vices and even he gived in U.S.A. patent for producing these vices ( but it was in the send wolrd was and in our country anybody did not know about it … )

I mentioned earlier the US was probably like it was on another planet for East Bloc companies like York during the war and later; the cold war. I feel what Mr Svirk says plausible; They had no idea what was happening in the US (Mr.Vogl patenting). And BTW, even if they did find out later on, like in 1946-7 they could not do anything about it, and quite probably they had no reason to either since trade relations with the US was none.

Therefore: If Mr Vogl. did indeed steal this design this can explain how and why he got away with it.

 

[autopts]

Hi Bull, and thanks for making this tread so interesting. Any word from Mr Svirk yet?

My theory -that the Czech patent office was closed during the war - does not hold up. I was just considering the situation in Czechoslovakia during and after the war and what Mr Svirk said in his email. Here in Bold:



I mentioned earlier the US was probably like it was on another planet for East Bloc companies like York during the war and later; the cold war. I feel what Mr Svirk says plausible; They had no idea what was happening in the US (Mr.Vogl patenting). And BTW, even if they did find out later on, like in 1946-7 they could not do anything about it, and quite probably they had no reason to either since trade relations with the US was none.
Therefore: If Mr Vogl. did indeed steal this design this can explain how and why he got away with it.

Strange WMH is and always was based in Switzlerland. They knew of no York Tool Co that made "Wilton like" closed channel vises ? Walter Meiers goes back in Swtzerland to 1937. Being a holding company I wonder if the ever went after York and got turned away.

 

[kc-steve]

Strange WMH is and always was based in Switzlerland. They knew of no York Tool Co that made "Wilton like" closed channel vises ? Walter Meiers goes back in Swtzerland to 1937. Being a holding company I wonder if the ever went after York and got turned away.

EXACTLY! That is something that also bothered me too. On the other hand, US patents are only good for 20 years or so. But still, the idea that Wilton copied York's design should have been written into the sale agreement between Walter Meiers and Wilton, "downgrading" the value of the Wilton company.

We don't know how that sale went (hostile or friendly takeover), but apparently Mr. Vogl made enough money to retire well. Hmmm, since Wilton was a public corporation at the time, then there should be records of the sale available.

Steve

 

[Bull]

So, how do you reckon this thing comes apart? I want to clean it up and get it ready to use. In the pics at the beginning of the thread, you can see the jaws were closed. I had been working the action at the flea market. Since the pics were taken, I opened the jaws a few inches, and that's how it has been sitting. Well, now it seems kind of stuck, doesn't want to open or close and I am afraid to just force the handle. Ideas?

 

[regguy1]

I have one exactly like it, I bought it new in 1970, cost me $30.00. It's still in use at my commercial building...I used it for 40 years. I'm pretty sure it's imported from Czech. It's a bear....

 

[Bull]

Hey, this is like the vise know-how Mecca of the internet. Someone, help an ignorant brotha' out. Please see post #67

 

[autopts]

Hey, this is like the vise know-how Mecca of the internet. Someone, help an ignorant brotha' out. Please see post #67

You say the channel bar comes out but not off my brotha? If the spindle continues to turn obviously its no longer engaged. Did you try spraying the channel bar down and then closing the vise and reopening it? Maybe its just some crud in there? You might have to do a light rap-a-tat on the side of the Dynamic jaw when its open all the way. Please keep us posted ma man!

 

[Bull]

You say the channel bar comes out but not off my brotha? If the spindle continues to turn obviously its no longer engaged. Did you try spraying the channel bar down and then closing the vise and reopening it? Maybe its just some crud in there? You might have to do a light rap-a-tat on the side of the Dynamic jaw when its open all the way. Please keep us posted ma man!

Yo, yo, check this. I am so ignorant, I don't even know what a "channel bar" is.

There is a pin in the dynamic jaw, in front of the handle. I tested it to see if it would come out easily with a punch, and it does. I didn't actually take it out, though, as I don't know what it is doing in its current location.

At this time, the vise will neither open nor close...just feels real tight in both directions, which was not the case when I bought it. The shaft does look pretty filthy, with crud junks around the shaft as it enters there body....

Lay me some vise-know-how-sugar, my main man.

 

[autopts]

Esse.........is that channel bar straight with the body? Could be maybe that 1st thread got in crooled? Is there a collar on the front with the 3 screws that can come off? If so, take the collar off and unscrew the spindle. I would support that vise with another stable vise. Put the jaws from the body of that York into your work vise so the the handle is facing up. Make sure it doesn't go anywhere. 1st. take the handle off.
Adious! and Buena suerte

 

[kc-steve]

Yo, yo, check this. . . . Lay me some vise-know-how-sugar, my main man.

Esse........
Adious! and Buena suerte

What kinda language is that? Are youse guys speakin' Czechoslovakian again?

Sorry, I can't help ya Bull. But Nick is your best bet for that stuff.

Steve

 

[autopts]

Yo, yo, check this. I am so ignorant, I don't even know what a "channel bar" is.

There is a pin in the dynamic jaw, in front of the handle. I tested it to see if it would come out easily with a punch, and it does. I didn't actually take it out, though, as I don't know what it is doing in its current location.

At this time, the vise will neither open nor close...just feels real tight in both directions, which was not the case when I bought it. The shaft does look pretty filthy, with crud junks around the shaft as it enters there body....

Lay me some vise-know-how-sugar, my main man.

Yo!! Did you done do it??

 

[Bull]

Yo!! Did you done do it??

Sheet. I ain't even hads time today to finish my other project. I did look at the vise, though...still don't what what this "channel bar" sheet is.

I also do not have any other mounted vise at this time to put the York in for these procedures.

 

[Bull]

So, at this point, is friction the only thing keeping the dynamic jaw in place?

Sorry for the blur in some of these.

 

[autopts]

So, at this point, is friction the only thing keeping the dynamic jaw in place?

Sorry for the blur in some of these.

Yo Yo, don't ever let your homies know you don't have a permently mounted vise. Let that out and your asking for a cap in your ***!! You need a bolted down vise my brotha! Then get whalin

 

[ctb]

Bull,
Those vices have two pins you have to drift out before they come apart. One's below the handle and the other is at the back, that little raised dot above the main shaft in your last picture in post 76.

I had the same problem because that hole was plugged with dirt. Flip the vice upside down and you should see where the pin comes out.

I moved to Slovakia from Canada and teach at the schools here. Those York vices are everywhere! Every school taught boys metalwork and woodwork until about 15 years ago. Now most of the workbenches are stored in school basements and they are slowly being taken away by friends of the caretaker. I should know, that's how I got my vice. A york 125.

It's in great condition, as are all of the school vices I've seen. Hardly used, only abused! The only problem with it is the free play in the handle. It's pretty excessive.

These vices are probably 60's or 70's models. The new ones found in stores are a metallic light blue colour, as opposed to the old red/orange, and don't have the barrel design any longer. (maybe made in China?) The biggest one I've seen is a 150 model (150 ml wide - 6 inch jaw.)

Hope this helps

 

[ctb]

Here's some pictures of my York 125.

[/IMG]

[/IMG]

[/IMG]

Here's the hole in the back from top

[/IMG]

Here it is from the bottom view

[/IMG]

 

[DandDMachine]

I picked up this York vise a couple weeks ago. I was doing a little research and found a Wilton that appears in every almost every aspect to be identical Except color, and York cast into side instead of Wilton. The picture of the Wilton is a 4" jaw, my York is a 3-1/4" The only difference I see is the jaws appear to be spread out further which I assume is because of the different jaw length. I am looking at them, and wondering is one company buying from the other one and selling these? Or are they just that close to looking alike. Its almost tempting to buy one of the Wiltons to get a better look at it.