Youtube video: 2 prong outlet to 3 pront while adding a ground

[Cookie Monsters]

Currently, I live in a California house built in a 1959 (according to www.zillow.com). One story house with attic access. While I was up in the attic to run cat6 Ethernet cables, I saw electrical wires that were stapled down in the attic and also the Hot and Cold lines running from the water heater.

The room I am staying in has 2 prong outlets. I want to upgrade it to 3 prong outlets but there are no grounds leading to these outlets. I know I can get GFCI outlets and put labels on them. Also, I saw this video on you-tube,

each video is about 13 mins

part 1

part 2

Is this okay to do and will it be considered a 'ground'?

 

[6t7gto]

Have you read the comments about the video?
I didn't watch the entire video but by the comments the box may not be grounded.
Therefore the outlet is not grounded.

As in the comments, you can put a 3 prong GFCI in place of the 2 prong.
And you must label it "no equipment ground".

 

[Jrican]

You should probably read the comments on the first video.

 

[Cookie Monsters]

The correct way to replace it is to test the box for ground continuity. If it's grounded, just replace the outlet with a 3-wire and test it. If the box isn't grounded, use a GFCI outlet, and connect the ground terminal to the neutral, then check it. The GFCI will trip if there is any residual current in the neutral wire that doesn't match what's in the hot wire, and the ground-to-neutral connection provides a path to trip the GFCI. Always test your work.

so based on what this guy said, get my neutral wire (white) and plug it into the ground on the gfci. why would he say that?

majority of information out there says to Connect the white wire to the silver colored "Line" terminal screw.

which statement is correct from the two above?

 

[theoldwizard1]

The room I am staying in has 2 prong outlets. I want to upgrade it to 3 prong outlets but there are no grounds leading to these outlets. I know I can get GFCI outlets and put labels on them.

Adding a GFCI outlet is actually "safer" than adding a ground !

On a very rare occasion you may run into an appliance that will not work without a ground. Uses a neutral bonding adapter.

 

[theoldwizard1]

The correct way to replace it is to test the box for ground continuity. If it's grounded, just replace the outlet with a 3-wire and test it. If the box isn't grounded, use a GFCI outlet, and connect the ground terminal to the neutral, then check it. The GFCI will trip if there is any residual current in the neutral wire that doesn't match what's in the hot wire, and the ground-to-neutral connection provides a path to trip the GFCI. Always test your work.

so based on what this guy said, get my neutral wire (white) and plug it into the ground on the gfci. why would he say that?

NO !!!!

Go buy a cheap 3 light outlet tester. Any harware store will have one. Even HF.

Replace your existing 2 prong receptacle with a 3 prong receptacle. Plug in your tester. If the correct lights come on (likely based on the age of your house) you are done !

If not install a GFCI.

That guy was making a whole lot of work for nothing ! From the middle 50s until sometime after 1990 (2000?) there was no requirement to connect the ground wire directly to the receptacle, unless of course you had a plastic body.

 

[gatchel]

NO !!!!

Go buy a cheap 3 light outlet tester. Any harware store will have one. Even HF.

Replace your existing 2 prong receptacle with a 3 prong receptacle. Plug in your tester. If the correct lights come on (likely based on the age of your house) you are done !

If not install a GFCI.

That guy was making a whole lot of work for nothing ! From the middle 50s until sometime after 1990 (2000?) there was no requirement to connect the ground wire directly to the receptacle, unless of course you had a plastic body.

To add a bit...
Buy the one with the GFCI test button on the top...

 

[sberry]

Are you plugging 3 wire grounded equipment in to this room you are staying in? If its clock/radio tv then the point is moot.

 

[Charles (in GA)]

Are you plugging 3 wire grounded equipment in to this room you are staying in? If its clock/radio tv then the point is moot.

I've mentioned this several times on this board. Except for computers and printers, fridges, washers, and a few other odd ball items, most common household devices such as lamps, hairdryers, power supply bricks/wall warts, portable fans, toasters, can openers, etc, do not need a ground, they are double insulated or simply are made with a two prong cord and plug.

Charles

 

[Mustang51js]

A lot of times there is a ground in the boxes and people don't know it. Just had a customer argue with me that since the outlets were two prong it meant there was no ground. His grounds were attached to the outside of the box and with new self ground receptacles he was good to go. It's pretty rare to have a romex with no ground, prob only seen it twice,and not talking about knob and tubing

 

[Charles (in GA)]

A lot of times there is a ground in the boxes and people don't know it. Just had a customer argue with me that since the outlets were two prong it meant there was no ground. His grounds were attached to the outside of the box and with new self ground receptacles he was good to go. It's pretty rare to have a romex with no ground, prob only seen it twice,and not talking about knob and tubing

I grew up in a house built in 1956. It was wired with the silver finish braided jacket Romex, 14 gauge with no grounds.

Charles

 

[Mustang51js]

I guess it depends on the location, In my town there are some sections that were all hooked up with aluminum wire. And same thing a couple towns over. Maybe it's whatever was available at the time because of the wars

 

[Cookie Monsters]

Adding a GFCI outlet is actually "safer" than adding a ground !

On a very rare occasion you may run into an appliance that will not work without a ground. Uses a neutral bonding adapter.

window a/c unit and my laptop running from two different locations. Been using the 3 prong to 2 prong adapter. It seems I'll be replacing all of them with gfci's.

 

[Cookie Monsters]

A lot of times there is a ground in the boxes and people don't know it. Just had a customer argue with me that since the outlets were two prong it meant there was no ground. His grounds were attached to the outside of the box and with new self ground receptacles he was good to go. It's pretty rare to have a romex with no ground, prob only seen it twice,and not talking about knob and tubing

how would you go about me figuring if the metal box is grounded?

 

[waggie]

also in so cal with mid/late 50's house... are the outlet boxes steel? Grab a flash light and look in the back of the box. For my house, the outlets are two conductor (black and white) but there's a bare copper wire screwed into the box. The copper wire is grounded somewhere (I haven't check where it terminates) but when i connect a green wire to the steel box, and check it with the outlet tester it says the installation was done correctly.

unfortunately, not all outlet boxes have that bare copper wire.

 

[theoldwizard1]

how would you go about me figuring if the metal box is grounded?

Go buy a cheap 3 light outlet tester. Any harware store will have one. Even HF.

Replace your existing 2 prong receptacle with a 3 prong receptacle. Plug in your tester. If the correct lights come on (likely based on the age of your house) you are done !

OR

Using a volt meter, check hot to neutral and the hot to metal box. There should be less than 2 volt difference between these 2 readings. Perfect would be 0 volts difference.

 

[Cookie Monsters]

also in so cal with mid/late 50's house... are the outlet boxes steel? Grab a flash light and look in the back of the box. For my house, the outlets are two conductor (black and white) but there's a bare copper wire screwed into the box. The copper wire is grounded somewhere (I haven't check where it terminates) but when i connect a green wire to the steel box, and check it with the outlet tester it says the installation was done correctly.

unfortunately, not all outlet boxes have that bare copper wire.

Yes I'm in socal. It is a metal box. I thought that connecting a wire to the metal box doesn't necessarily mean its grounded from what people implied on this forum.

 

[Cookie Monsters]

OR

Using a volt meter, check hot to neutral and the hot to metal box. There should be less than 2 volt difference between these 2 readings. Perfect would be 0 volts difference.

I will do that with a volt meter tomorrow. its almost 1am here in socal. thanks!

 

[waggie]

Yes I'm in socal. It is a metal box. I thought that connecting a wire to the metal box doesn't necessarily mean its grounded from what people implied on this forum.

you're right, the metal box doesn't do anything, if it doesn't have a grounding wire attached to it.

Most of the metal box (at my house) have a bare copper grounding wire hooked up to the metal box. I was in the same position you are, wanting to modernize to 3 prong outlets... and everyone told me to check for that grounding wire. For the life of me, no matter how hard i look, with any flash light, still can't see it. it wasn't until i ripped into the walls recently, did i see the grounding wire attached to the metal box everyone was talking about. Some were attached to the back side of the box, so there was no way for me to see it from the side where the sockets were.

 

[Cookie Monsters]

you're right, the metal box doesn't do anything, if it doesn't have a grounding wire attached to it.

Most of the metal box (at my house) have a bare copper grounding wire hooked up to the metal box. I was in the same position you are, wanting to modernize to 3 prong outlets... and everyone told me to check for that grounding wire. For the life of me, no matter how hard i look, with any flash light, still can't see it. it wasn't until i ripped into the walls recently, did i see the grounding wire attached to the metal box everyone was talking about. Some were attached to the back side of the box, so there was no way for me to see it from the side where the sockets were.

Oh man I don't want to cut out the drywall

 

[Mustang51js]

Can you look in your panel,look for ground wires on the bar or they would be twisted together onto a lug in the panel. If you have metal wire then you have a ground also.

 

[teamextreme]

As part of the transition from no ground wires to what we have today, the first step was using a cloth-type covered romex with a ground wire in it (thinner wire than we use today, but it works) but still using 2 wire outlets. This was common during the 1950's until grounded outlets became code in 1964. They would tie the grounds together outside the outlet box and bolt them to the outside of the box, so there are no ground wires inside the box. All you have to do in this case is use a ground pigtail from the box to the 3 wire outlet, or just use a self grounding outlet.

 

[waggie]

Oh man I don't want to cut out the drywall

Dont need to cut the drywall. You can try this first:

shut off the power from the panel.
remove the screws holding your old two prong outlet.
tap a ground to the outlet metal box
plug in a 3-2prong adapter into the 2 prong outlet
hook the ground you tapped to the ground on the adapter.
plug in the tester.
turn on the power.
if you have a ground attached to the steel outlet box, the tester should tell you.

actually, you could do this without removing the outlet, just be very careful. Attach a grounding wire to the adapter, and touch it to the outlet box.

I'm sure there are proper ways where real electricians do this test... I'm not an electrician.

 

[Mustang51js]

I have a digital meter I use, but another option is grab the box and then stick your tongue on the hot wire. Lol

 

[FunkyfullWidth]

I bought a tester at lowes. It checks that the outlets are wired properly and to see if they are grounded. I have a similar problem in my home, built in the 30's. All two prong outlets. However, with the tester, you put one lead in the outlet, and touch the screw holding the cover to the outlet with the other lead. It will light up if it's grounded.

The problem is, I have armored wire in my home. It's the metal sheath around the wires that's actually providing the ground to the box. It isn't as simple as swapping out outlets or switches. I personally would not trust the armored cable to provide a sufficient ground. I do not beleive it's legal to use it as one either as heat is a concern. It may not be a perfect connection all the way around.

I have seen armored cable with a bare ground wire inside. Almost looks like solder. I'm not sure when they were first used.

 

[Mustang51js]

I bought a tester at lowes. It checks that the outlets are wired properly and to see if they are grounded. I have a similar problem in my home, built in the 30's. All two prong outlets. However, with the tester, you put one lead in the outlet, and touch the screw holding the cover to the outlet with the other lead. It will light up if it's grounded.

The problem is, I have armored wire in my home. It's the metal sheath around the wires that's actually providing the ground to the box. It isn't as simple as swapping out outlets or switches. I personally would not trust the armored cable to provide a sufficient ground. I do not beleive it's legal to use it as one either as heat is a concern. It may not be a perfect connection all the way around.

I have seen armored cable with a bare ground wire inside. Almost looks like solder. I'm not sure when they were first used.

Armored wire is fine for a ground,there is no heat from it. All you need is a ground tail from the back of the box or self grounding outlet and your good to go.

 

[teamextreme]

What he ^ said. Heat? What on earth does heat have to do with anything? Are you thinking there's current flowing in the ground wire that will cause heat? If so, that is not the case.

 

[FunkyfullWidth]

I wouldn't go telling people that it's fine for a ground. Armored cable is not code to be used as a ground unless it has a bonding strip, which I don't beleive came around to the 50 or 60's.

As far as the heat goes. When I was looking into changing my outlets several places stated that the armored cable could heat up if it did not have a bonding strip.

 

[Mustang51js]

I wouldn't go telling people that it's fine for a ground. Armored cable is not code to be used as a ground unless it has a bonding strip, which I don't beleive came around to the 50 or 60's.

As far as the heat goes. When I was looking into changing my outlets several places stated that the armored cable could heat up if it did not have a bonding strip.

The ground is just a place for voltage to go when you have a short circuit. If you have heat on the cable then you are either overloading the wires inside or using the casing as a neutral, in both cases it's not good. I would rather rely on the outer cover of bx cable than a tiny aluminum strip inside the wire as a ground,and they are both part of the ground in bx wire.

 

[theoldwizard1]

Stop ******* on each others shoes !

Just buy one of these.

If you don't have a 3 prong receptacle, GO BUY ONE AND INSTALL IT TEMPORARILY !


Some people like to make a mountain out of a mole hill !

 

[Mustang51js]

We going for 3 pages of the same answers lol

 

[James_B]

I'm starting the 2 prong to 3 prong update on my house (100+ year old farm house in rural Nova Scotia). The house has a mixture of 2 slot, 2 "T" slots, and standard 3 hole outlets.

So far, none of the boxes with the 2 slot sockets have had any sign of a ground. I'm using a 3 neon style test plug with a 2 prong-3 hole adapter (with an alligator clip lead bonded to the "grounding tag" on the adapter) to test the outlets and the possible presence of a ground connected to the wall box.

At least half of the 3 hole outlets in the house also don't light the "ground OK" neon. Testing with the 2 prong adapter and alligator clip lead shows that none of those boxes are grounded either, so all that's happened there is somebody has fitted 3 hole outlets to the old non-grounded metal wall boxes.

Upstairs, none of the 6 bedrooms even has a wall mount light switch, just a pull cord on the single pendant light fixture in each room.

Before we bought the house, we knew that the electrical system would need to be looked at, and plan to do a complete rewiring of the house as part of the renovation.

 

[Mustang51js]

Sometimes its easier to leave the old outlets and just install new outlets on new circuits or take down Sheetrock and run all new stuff one room at a a time.

 

[James_B]

Sometimes its easier to leave the old outlets and just install new outlets on new circuits or take down Sheetrock and run all new stuff one room at a a time.

As we'll be taking down some of the badly cracked plaster and lath walls to put in insulation, vapour barrier, and new sheetrock, running new power cables (and some Cat 5e or 6 cables while we're at it) will be a bit easier.

 

[mrtoolfool]

Sometimes its easier to leave the old outlets and just install new outlets on new circuits..........

I agree. This is EXACTLY what I did. I have a house built in the early 60's.

When I put a new breaker panel in, I left the few old two wire outlets along with the original circuits where they were. Some of these actually were tied in with the ceiling lights. (not code today)

I installed additional new outlets in bedrooms, kitchen, living room, etc.
There were not enough outlets anyway in the house and most of them were on just a few circuits.

The basement was also redone as it was all accessible.

I use the new, grounded outlets for the fridge, computers, entertainment center, TV's, etc.

A few of the old 2 wire outlets in the hallway, living room, bathroom, I converted to built in LED nightlights.

The only thing, if any, plugged into most others are a few lamps that are 2 wire anyway.

It's worked out GREAT for me and I didn't have to rip out any drywall. I can only imagine what a mess that would have been as who knows where those original wires run. Up, Down, Sideways. It could have been a real mess.

 

[Cookie Monsters]

Thanks for all the replies. This is truly a great forum.

update: Sorry for the late response. I was doing other things around this place like fixing the plaster board that had water damage in the dining room area then repainting the dining room and putting up new blinds and between that I had work.

So

This is what I tried but still could not get a ground. attached are the pictures.

I, then, tried installing a GFCI but the outlet box was too small to fit the GFCI, which would mean I would need to cut out the wall and attach a bigger box. This would allow me to see if there was a grounding wire somewhere behind the wall. If I found a grounding wire then I wouldn't have to put a 12 dollar GFCI. I would only have to put a regular one dollar 3 prong receptacle outlet.

Any suggestions?

 

[joe_padavano]

This is what I tried but still could not get a ground. attached are the pictures.

Uh, that sure looks like a Bakelite (as in non-conductive) box.

 

[Cookie Monsters]

So you're saying the ground could be still somewhere behind the box as in just the wire hanging loose?

 

[nine4gmc]

good info!

 

[Cookie Monsters]

I'm gonna end up taking some classes at the local community college and get my electricians license at the end of the program. This house is all funky! Always thought plastic boxes were blue. I learn something everyday.