Zoning question

[Doug1]

Anyone here ever had to move a garage or shed after it was built? I am right up against the propery line in the back and before I put a concrete pad underneath it was wondering if is likely that I do that and then have to tear it all down.

I know there is no real safe period but the longer it is there the less likely you will ever get called on knocking it down I suppose. But then again, I don't know. All my neighbors are cool with it but I am worried about the code police coming by at some point.

Can you guys share your experiences. This is one of those better to ask forgiveness and permisson deals since newer municipal rules have been put in place since the neighborhood I live in was built 40 years ago.

So far I don't have a ton of money at risk. About $8K but paving another 12x20 drive extension and a 20x24 pad would add significantly to that.

Any suggestions?

 

[Lkdelta]

go to a phone number that local codes can't trace on caller ID or doesn't lead to you......and ask a "what-if", as though you were thinking of buying into the neighborhood.

 

[Doug1]

go to a phone number that local codes can't trace on caller ID or doesn't lead to you......and ask a "what-if", as though you were thinking of buying into the neighborhood.

I'm not even sure who to call? Do I look up the number for zoning?

 

[blkhonda1991]

im not quite sure what you are trying to do? are you moving it further away from the property line or closer? zoning is going to be tough to play the ask for forgiveness later game in terms of putting something in setbacks...slight fudges in height etc probably not so much

 

[PAToyota]

Typical setbacks are 5' side yard and 15' rear property line for "in town" and can go up from there in subdivisions. If the structure was there before zoning, it was grandfathered but a new pad would be a problem.

Unless you are in a small enough town that everyone knows everyone, just walk into your borough/township/whatever building and ask them what the setbacks are.

 

[larry_g]

You would call the building department or whoever issues the building permits. This question screams the reason that you should put your location in you profile. Stuff like this varies so much around the world, and this is a worldwide board.

lg
no neat sig line

 

[idoine in toronto]

Call the Building dept. and speak with a zoning official to find out if what you want to is permitted. It sounds like you have, what we would describe where I live, is a building in "legal non compliance". Meaning it was either built before current zoning regulations (grandfathered) or a variance was issued.

Different municipalities will treat this situation differently. In one area you may be able to completely tear down the structure and build a new one based on the original location and layout, but with updated structure, electrical etc, while other jurisdictions might not let you make any modifications without bringing the whole structure into zoning compliance. If the later is the case in your situation, you may be able to apply for and receive a variance (if needed) for your new slab.

I would ask first in this situation. If you feel uneasy about asking, begin your inquire anonymously without giving your name or project address.

 

[LEVE]

I'm on the P&Z for my town. I'll give you my take on this problem.

Most P&Z regulations permit upkeep of structures. Upkeep does not mean major upgrades, it means simple repair of the existing structure. That would be most likely be grandfathered.

If you want to move the garage so you can pour a floor and move it back in the same location, that would not be a simple repair to the structure. It would be a major upgrade. That would not be permitted.

I would say... No way would you be allowed to do that. If you have the means to move the garage, you have the means to move it to a new slab set back off the property line. That brings up a host of other questions such as distance for the setback, other structures, lot size vs coverage, new construction requirements, etc..

I'd not be treating this as simple repair to the existing building, but a major upgrade. That said... IMHO, and in most communities, you're toast.

 

[mikeyr]

You dont say new or existing construction and used the words shed and garage so not sure which. I would walk into the building permit office and ask them. They see thousands (ok, maybe hundreds) of people and wont remember you 10 minutes after you walk out and they will tell you the rules.

Here where I live, its far easier to ask for forgiveness after the fact on just about everything but setbacks 6ft. side and 10ft. back are absolute and they will make you tear down and/or move anything that is not "legal non-compliance" within that range unless its smaller than 120sq. ft. which is considered a storage shed. In the last town I lived in, the same rule was in place but the shed could not be bolted down to the slab, if it was bolted it had to be away from the setback. That was only 6 miles away so the rules change and you need to check where you are.

Shed you can probably get away with it. Garage is pretty risky. I build a very illegal garage in my last house and was always worried about getting caught, for about 10 years I did my own work including roof on the main house just so that I would not have a inspector come around, I was careful about when I was out there and just always worried. When it came time to move I tore the thing down. New house I went all the way with permits, etc. a huge pain and expensive but I sleep better.

 

[Travis E.]

I was sort of in this situation last year. I live in a older neightborhood (our house was built in 1957). When we purchased the house it had 2 sheds on the property, both 10'x12' and I wanted to move them more towards one corner of the yard. For us this was only going to be temporary. I was unsure of set back of sheds at the time so I asked a couple of the neghbors if they would mind, they didnt. I rented a forklift and moved them. If you are worried about it i would call the city as others have said. For us it worked out great.

 

[Doug1]

I'm on the P&Z for my town. I'll give you my take on this problem.

Most P&Z regulations permit upkeep of structures. Upkeep does not mean major upgrades, it means simple repair of the existing structure. That would be most likely be grandfathered.

If you want to move the garage so you can pour a floor and move it back in the same location, that would not be a simple repair to the structure. It would be a major upgrade. That would not be permitted.

I would say... No way would you be allowed to do that. If you have the means to move the garage, you have the means to move it to a new slab set back off the property line. That brings up a host of other questions such as distance for the setback, other structures, lot size vs coverage, new construction requirements, etc..

I'd not be treating this as simple repair to the existing building, but a major upgrade. That said... IMHO, and in most communities, you're toast.

That gives me a pretty good idea. The shed is something I just had put up. They came in and wham, bam it was built in less than 2 days. I have a small lot and I already have too much building for it. The shed would not have been allowed. I could pull it up from the setback, but it is for a drainage pipe that was put in 20 years ago. I can't imagine them ever having to dig it up. The bigger issue is that I most likely have too much building on the lot with the new shed. By throwing up a "shed" that isn't all that noticeable from the street and it went up in such a short amount of time, I am hoping I will never get questioned on it. I checked with my neighbors that would see it from their backyards and they were cool with it. So I am risking roughly 8,000 that I won't have to tear it down.

One of the questions is that in an older neighborhood, is one all that likely to get called on the issue if the neighbors don't complain? I was careful to ask each neighbor who bordered my back yard if they minded before it was built. I had it built with a wooden floor so I could move it around if necessary. I think a variance could be possible since a number of houses in the area have some big unattached garages.

I am putting in a couple of pretty good size trees to go around it so it won't be so noticeable. Do many cities go around and look for this kind of thing after the fact?

 

[LEVE]

One of the questions is that in an older neighborhood, is one all that likely to get called on the issue if the neighbors don't complain?

Yes, it is likely.

Some towns are even using GOOGLE Earth to track new construction in their jurisdiction. Most towns have some type of rule/law/regulation compliance officer. They will cruise neighborhoods and find out of compliance residences. It could even be regulated to the local CSO or a policeman. If you're not cited on the spot, then the problem residences are forwarded to the town/city for further paperwork to be done. Once that's done... a citation can be issued. Then it's time to fight or pay.

IMHO, you're gambling... I hope you don't loose this one, but I fear you may.

 

[ryaninmichigan]

The mere fact that you have already built this without a permit makes me think you either have no zoning laws or you don't care what they are. I could not even start building with out giving the township plans laying the building out on my property in detail.

 

[Doug1]

I understand it to be a gamble. Which is why I won't spend a bunch of money finishing the inside. Their other other houses in my neighborhood with big back yard buildings, as large or larger than mine.

I did take a gamble since the shed supplier said he had done a number of them with no problem and that he would come and take it apart and resize it downward if I got called on it. Guess we will see.

But it is definitely not on a slab and is not wired for electricity.

 

[Doug1]

Well it is a "shed" but a 20x24 shed. It is not on a slab and not wired for electricity. If I don't have any issues I would like to make it more permanent later.

What happens if I get tagged? Since it is isn't permanent, I am hoping for some leniency.

You dont say new or existing construction and used the words shed and garage so not sure which. I would walk into the building permit office and ask them. They see thousands (ok, maybe hundreds) of people and wont remember you 10 minutes after you walk out and they will tell you the rules.

Here where I live, its far easier to ask for forgiveness after the fact on just about everything but setbacks 6ft. side and 10ft. back are absolute and they will make you tear down and/or move anything that is not "legal non-compliance" within that range unless its smaller than 120sq. ft. which is considered a storage shed. In the last town I lived in, the same rule was in place but the shed could not be bolted down to the slab, if it was bolted it had to be away from the setback. That was only 6 miles away so the rules change and you need to check where you are.

Shed you can probably get away with it. Garage is pretty risky. I build a very illegal garage in my last house and was always worried about getting caught, for about 10 years I did my own work including roof on the main house just so that I would not have a inspector come around, I was careful about when I was out there and just always worried. When it came time to move I tore the thing down. New house I went all the way with permits, etc. a huge pain and expensive but I sleep better.

 

[czeto]

A shed is 10 x 10, a garage is 20 x 24. If you beg for forgiveness you may get away with a shed, a garage is a whole different matter. You loose. Whatever you do don't pour a slab. That's a "permanent" structure which is one fine after another.

 

[blkhonda1991]

i just realized you posted another thread with pictures and realized this "shed" is 20x24 and a lot of jurisdictions have a restriction on square footage of sheds for just this reason so that you cant go and build a "shed" that is really a garage with a wood floor, since its already built i sure hope they forgive and forget but that "shed" is the size of a garage

 

[PAToyota]

The shed is something I just had put up. They came in and wham, bam it was built in less than 2 days. I have a small lot and I already have too much building for it. The shed would not have been allowed.

Here, the fine for building without the permit is double the cost of what the permit would have been. When they "catch" you is when they review things every few years for a property tax reassessment.

 

[billspit]

I think you are asking for trouble, almost begging for it. A 20x24 ain't no shed. I have nothing pertinent to offer.

 

[ddawg16]

I helps to have your location in your profile......then we would have an idea of what laws might apply to you.

Where I live in California, I can have my garage right up to the property line....I kept my new garage 6" from the side so that I would have room for the rain gutter.....

 

[wornoutoldman]

You may run into a problem obtaining title insurance when you go to sell since they will be hesitant to insure over a stucture (and driveway) that 1) is non compliant 2) will not match the policy that you received when you purchased. It may be PITA but do yourself a favor and just sort it out right.

 

[GarageEnvy]

You really really need to find out what the laws are for your area. They vary wildly throughout the country and even within each state. My town has county islands within the city. I happen to live in one and the rules for me are different than the rules for the guy 5 houses away from me. Having said that, since you asked for experiences I'll give you mine.

I have a home in an older neighborhood. When it was built the owner put in a dog kennel on a concrete slab and the property was 1 acre. This was 1955 and there were no codes regulating sheds and the permits in our county only go back to 1956. The property was split and the structure eventually fell apart. Now in year 2000 I come along and buy the property and immediately build a 14'x18' shed on the spot which is now right up against the south and east property lines and well within the setbacks. I did not get a permit and it is wired with a subpanel. Had a neighbor complained, I probably would have had to take it down. Now, year 2010 and I go to get a permit for my garage expansion. Plan check asks for the location of all existing pool, outbuildings and sheds. Knowing they use aerial photography I don't want to gamble. The permit was issued but I was given 3 choices to get my final on the garage. 1) Tear it down 2) Shrink it to under 120sf (the legal limit of a shed in my area) or 3) Permit it by trading out (setting aside) some buildable area with that area and then getting it inspected. In the end the building inspector never commented on the shed and issued the final.

Now, experience as a professional appraiser. Most all of my clients in the lending industry do not allow value to be given to unpermitted structures so in all likelihood it has no contributory value. Also, many are becoming increasingly concerned with encroachments on setbacks. If you make it more permanent you may be creating a bigger headache down the road when you sell. The flipside of that argument is that other lenders are less concerned with the permits than health and safety issues. If the "shed" was structurally unsound and you've now improved it then you might be improving your situation. Either way I would consider it a material fact that you should disclose if you ever sold it and then let the chips fall where they may.

The only thing that is universally certain is that you are gambling by putting in a concrete floor.

 

[Doug1]

A shed is 10 x 10, a garage is 20 x 24. If you beg for forgiveness you may get away with a shed, a garage is a whole different matter. You loose. Whatever you do don't pour a slab. That's a "permanent" structure which is one fine after another.

THAT is what I was concerned about most. I hired a portable building company and they came and put it up. They said if anyone fusses, they will come move it or downsize it. I've already paid for it and knew it was a gamble. Since it is not a permanent structure with no wiring, plumbing or on a slab and can be moved by lifting and dropping down on PCV pipe and rolling, then hopefully they won't hammer me on it.

Biggest problem I see is that I can't get it out of my yard without tearing most of it down. I did tear down a 15x25 carport that was unattached on the side of the house. That was 6 years ago though, and was full of termites.

 

[december45]

Generally speaking.. the only problems i have heard about with code enforcement/zoning is when some one complains, generally the guys from the county do NOT come out on their own, for me anyway its always been some kind of complaint
Every place is just alittle different, set backs, foundation, and square foot area all have different requirements. In our county if its less than 160 sq feet permit is not needed, in the county i lived before this one skids (temp foundation) were considered temp structure no permit needed. Most counties vary on their requirements the only way to find out is ask, our county has a booklet on the counter of the planning office, has alot of the FAQ in it and is pretty helpful

 

[thrifty bill]

When they "catch" you is when they review things every few years for a property tax reassessment.

+1 In my town, the city is having an appraiser visit every single home, in person, to reassess each property. They are noting everything, comparing it to their files and then acting on the information. I would not get away with sneaking in a 20x24 building, regardless of what I called it (shed, garage, or whatever).

In my town, you can go on line and review the property records for everyone, including yourself of course. You should see what is currently on your property card, and get ready if there are significant omissions.

 

[GarageEnvy]

With the standard thread disclaimer of things varying widely by county I would point out a very common problem with the county records search, at least in my area. The public data dissemination services such as Realist, Metroscan and NDC data are disclosing assessors office data which is obtained from a variety of sources. Plans and permits are an entirely different department. Soooo, on the rare case where one government agency doesn't communicate well with the other or in a timely manner, you can have inaccurate information. When you check your card, check it at the plans and permits department if yours is separate. In my county I know of quite a few instances where the assessor has done an inspection and included an unpermitted addition.

 

[Doug1]

I spent the last 3 hours finding everything I needed on the county site. Even GIS and aerial photos. 2 good things are that the area it is built is normally covered by trees and that accessory buildings can be up to 500 sq ft. I am good to go on that. The last two photographs taken 2 years ago and 12 years ago have that area covered by tree growth.

The builder should have gotten a permit from what I see. The only real issue is if I have too much building on the lot. The code shows almost everything being 30% of the lot for buildings. I'm probably closer to 45%. Everything else is cool. Hopefully no one will fuss and I have decided not to put down a concrete pad after all. I'd rather have the garage where it is easy to tear down when I go to sell the place. I could give the buyers the option to have it removed at closing at my expense. It really needs to move 15 ft foward but that isn't a big deal to make that happen since it is on skids. It would actually require smaller footings than there now because the lot slopes so much from front to back.

 

[PAToyota]

The other issue with setbacks is with fires. Typically that is the reason that they want separation from the property lines, so it can be something that they take seriously rather than just "nuisance" complaints from neighbors.

As for the builder getting the permit, they "should" have gotten the permit but it is the property owner that is held responsible.

 

[Doug1]

The other issue with setbacks is with fires. Typically that is the reason that they want separation from the property lines, so it can be something that they take seriously rather than just "nuisance" complaints from neighbors.

As for the builder getting the permit, they "should" have gotten the permit but it is the property owner that is held responsible.

I did the math after figuring out how to determine the lot size when it has 4 unequal sides. Turns out I am most likely still under the 30%. The setback it is near is for a drainage ditch that was filled in 15 years after the setback was put in place. The owners got with the city and had the huge ditch replaced with pipe and filled in. It has nothing to do with being too close to another structure.

I also thought I had to be 15 ft from my house but it can be 6 ft. If I have to move it foward, it will be in a better place anyway.

 

[59 wagon man]

my neighbor put his nice shiny shed to close to the property while he kept giving me a hard time about my work truck parked in my backyard. he got written up by code and never moved .he ranted and raved how it's all my fault went he appeared before the special magistrate for his hearing. well now it's a few years later his code fine easily exceeds $100,000 by now. doesn't matter cause the ***** is in foreclosure anyway but it will have to be moved to clear the violation

 

[bczygan]

I spent the last 3 hours finding everything I needed on the county site. Even GIS and aerial photos. 2 good things are that the area it is built is normally covered by trees and that accessory buildings can be up to 500 sq ft. I am good to go on that. The last two photographs taken 2 years ago and 12 years ago have that area covered by tree growth.

The builder should have gotten a permit from what I see. The only real issue is if I have too much building on the lot. The code shows almost everything being 30% of the lot for buildings. I'm probably closer to 45%. Everything else is cool. Hopefully no one will fuss and I have decided not to put down a concrete pad after all. I'd rather have the garage where it is easy to tear down when I go to sell the place. I could give the buyers the option to have it removed at closing at my expense. It really needs to move 15 ft foward but that isn't a big deal to make that happen since it is on skids. It would actually require smaller footings than there now because the lot slopes so much from front to back.

I would pour a slab. I would create an expansion joint at the setback line and extend the slab past the building outline far enough that the building could be slid forward past the setback line. I would run electrical underground and stub up before pouring the concrete. I would light and power the garage and use it as I wished.

I've got 8 sheds on my 40x100 city lot. No permits required or obtained. I'm going to reconfigure them into a garage/shop but won't be pulling the required permits. Life's too short for the expense and hassles. Screw em.

In your case, if found out, they will probably make you become compliant, double your fees and maybe fine you. You will need to move and/or demolish any non compliant structures and pull permits to do so.

 

[Doug1]

Interestingly enough the "Code Enforcement" truck rode by this morning. It paused very briefly to take a look from 2 angles but the guy never got out of the truck.

Guess if I get a letter from the county in the mail, I will know what it is about?

 

[Doug1]

Repeat of above message. Deleted.

 

[BlockBuster]

I just read thru most of this thread, so I'll answer one of your earlier questions; 'am I asking for trouble?'. Yes, you are.

It appears you are trying to skirt the zoning process by playing Mickey the Dunce. Setback requirements can ****, but they're a fact of life and they're put in place for a number of reasons. Sure, permits cost money, but what doesn't? Most adults play by the rules and check things out before they start building, not after. I hope you don't get kicked in the nuts, but when it happens I'm not gonna feel bad.

 

[Doug1]

I just read thru most of this thread, so I'll answer one of your earlier questions; 'am I asking for trouble?'. Yes, you are.

It appears you are trying to skirt the zoning process by playing Mickey the Dunce. Setback requirements can ****, but they're a fact of life and they're put in place for a number of reasons. Sure, permits cost money, but what doesn't? Most adults play by the rules and check things out before they start building, not after. I hope you don't get kicked in the nuts, but when it happens I'm not gonna feel bad.

First. You misquoted me. I never asked "'am I asking for trouble?" I hired a company to come put up a storage building in 1 day's time. A reputable company that has done thousands of these. They built this thing in 8 hours. The only violation I have to worry about is that I am close to a setback that was a ditch many years ago. Filled in 15 years ago. The building is on skids so I can pull it on up another 6 feet to get it in compliance if needed.

I was never worried about being in trouble. If I have to tear the thing down then I will. That is just the gamble I took. And again, it is a limited gamble because the business owner said he would come back and downsize it at his expense if it gets called into question. If that happens, my neighbors will have to look at all those old car parts and **** I filled it up with already. The side of my house is much neater with all those big pieces in the building. I restore old cars for fun and have 3 turn apart right now. The neighbors never fussed even if I left a car on jackstands all week while I worked on it. Now, they don't have to see that anymore so I would think most would be happy about it.

And I am doing a good bit of landscaping to help beautify the area around it just for the neighbors. If I have to downsize I will but hopefully no one will fuss about it.