Fire…

Posted by 141drew Posted onNov 30, 2011 at 4:55 PM and filed under News & Editorial


A good pal of mine recently had his shop catch fire. He’s the second buddy in a year to share the same horrific tragedy. It’s an awful experience that is sometimes preventable and other times only containable. This fire started with an electrical short inside a wall and was accelerated by paint products. The ruins you see here were the result of just minutes of heat. It’s scary to think about.

Get insurance. Get fire alarms. Be careful.

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S

Snappy

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Wow, sad story & pics. I hope the guy had good insurance & gets rebuilt again.
 
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Lawson4450

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it doesnt take much at all, i try and make sure whatever Im doing isnt going to do damage or hurt someone or me. One of the biggest things i see is people do something so many times and get away with it and just one time it bites em. Electrical issues are tough you just dont know thats why I plug one thing in and unplug something else and always try and use some sort of power strips with surge protection and built in breakers and I never overload them. Im sorry for your friend as a firefighter i have seen it many times and fire doubles in size every minute so it goes quick.
 
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Jawn

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That's a cryin' shame.

Good reason for a shop not attached to your house.

I knew a guy that got killed working in his shop... parts washer burst into flames, trapped him in the back corner of the building. Whole thing burned up. (edit... just found the article, it was 10 years ago this week)
 
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K

kv501

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If there are any tools that might be tough to find replacements for, maybe a sticky would be in order in the "wanted" section of the classifieds. I feel for the guy especially knowing the kind of sweat most of us have in our garages.

I'm assuming no one got hurt which is thankful. "Stuff" can be replaced.
 
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colt zantop

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oh man! that ***** big time. hopfully insurance takes care of the replaceable stuff. from the looks of it...he had some vintage stuff that probably can't be replaced very easy :(
 
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c_mccann

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My dad's machine shop went the same way in 1988. Happened at night and he was in it. The paints and solvents can make that small flash into an explosion darned quick. Glad your buddy wasn't inside when it happened, tell him sorry for me.
 
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theoldwizard1

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So if you had a remote shop, say the size of a 4 car garage (20'x40') is it possible to install a gravity feed sprinkler system that would be effective ?

How many gallons would you need ?

How much "head" (vertical distance from the bottom of the tank to the sprinkler head) ?

Propylene glycol to prevent freezing ?
 
7

74grabber

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Jawn said:
That's a cryin' shame.

Good reason for a shop not attached to your house.
Click to expand...

emeraldcoupe said:
i feel for him. my garage burnt down 5 years ago, but it took my house with it.
Click to expand...



Had this type of situation with a very close family friend while growing up. He lost his house all his own personal stuff in the back shop and all of his customers bikes in the front shop.

I was 13 at the time and he looked me straight in the eyes hours after the fire and told me, "never have your shop and house attached. If it was two seperate buildings atleast I would have a place of my own to sleep tonight."

Words I try and live by.


Sorry for all of your guys losses that have been in this situation, I can remember the sadness and fear in his eyes to this day.
 
F

Firefighter315

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Man, it's always hard to see that and imagine what it does to the homeowner. Unfortunately, I've seen it a lot. If there is anything good to come from tragedy, it could be that it makes us all take time to consider risks we overlook every day and maybe stop us the next time what seems like a short-cut presents itself. For those asking questions, there are more options available today than ever for homeowner sprinkler systems or stand alone dry chemical extinguishers that are heat activated just like a sprinkler head. I know Griot's carries two different sized models. Pricey, but well worth the insurance. They are designed to be ceiling mounted so they can be hung above the bays of your garage or shop. Hopefully, this homeowner had insurance on it and finds the help he needs.
 
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Charles (in GA)

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This fire started with an electrical short inside a wall and was accelerated by paint products.
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This is, from what I see, a metal building. I see sheet metal, steel columns, steel wall girts. Electrical shorts........... Says something for EMT conduit as opposed to Romex

Also says something for having most, if not all, of your flammables in a approved/certified flammables cabinet.

I don't think a short inside of EMT will cause a fire that will spread. With Romex, in a stud wall, say, an office inside this metal building, its got fuel in the form of 2x4's right next to it, and lots of insulation, and nothing to stop it.

Wonder if one of those Arc Fault Breakers would have caught this?

I've got a flammables cabinet, it has the spray cans of paint, thinner, etc in it, but I use enough gasoline (mower, tractor, pressure washer, etc) that I keep about 20 gal in the shop. Really would like a separate building for all the yard stuff, mower, and tractor, but I don't and cannot right now.

Charles
 
J

jimp

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oo
I can feel for him. I had great insurance and still will never recover what I lost from a couple kids with matches and 30 gal. of gas. That second picture is of my shop before the fire.
 

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1BADLS1tuner

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cant imagine how bad that would be.... if that fire started because of a shorted wire, why didnt it trip a breaker instead of arching long enough to light a fire?????

Either way its horrible, i just had my insurance add my garage on 2 days ago... (even though its not finished yet)
 
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wfopete

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My father-in-law suggested that I put a little wood burning stove in my pole barn. I explained to him that I had to many things that used gasoline and no way was I going to have an open flame just waiting for the right time to find a better fuel source than wood.

He just rolled his eyes as if to say "You've heard too many fire stories".

He's right...and they are all the same...stuff burns up!
 
N

Nighttrain

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I updated my insurance about three weeks ago. Its worth the hour or so to sit down with your insurance guy. I found out that on several of my motorcycles that I do not drive anymore that they will be covered. Do a safety swwep of yur garage every once in a while and just look for anything that just does not pass a safety type of code and fix it.
 
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ptschram

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Charles (in GA) said:
Also says something for having most, if not all, of your flammables in a approved/certified flammables cabinet.


I've got a flammables cabinet, it has the spray cans of paint, thinner, etc in it, but I use enough gasoline (mower, tractor, pressure washer, etc) that I keep about 20 gal in the shop. Really would like a separate building for all the yard stuff, mower, and tractor, but I don't and cannot right now.

Charles
Click to expand...

The biggest mistake folks make with flammables cabinets-and one that I suspect you have made, is that they are rarely ever vented outside the building. Without a vent to the outside air, the flammables cabinet becomes a potential bomb as the concentration of flammables inside can exceed the lower explosion limit and the act of opening the cabinet can be the ignition source resulting in a larger fire/explosion than would have occurred had the containers not been in an enclosed cabinet.

If a single container were to have leaked, the leak might have vaporized and not been a concern. In a cabinet, it is allowed to pool in the bottom and vaporize into the closed space.

If you read the label inside an NFPA approved cabinet, there is a sticker adjacent to the 2" NPT bungs indicating that they are to be vented.
 
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smithbd2

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cant imagine how bad that would be.... if that fire started because of a shorted wire, why didnt it trip a breaker instead of arching long enough to light a fire?????
Click to expand...

Breakers are supposed to trip at their rated amperage, but they dont always do it.
I watched a guy at work trying to find the breaker that fed a certain wire, he grounded the hot to a metal i-beam hoping to trip the breaker, it never did, it just welded the wire to the beam.
I was working on an old electric motor, had it plugged into a 20amp circuit, my clamp-on meter showed it was drawing more than 25 to 28 amps and it never tripped. It was a GFCI recpt also.
An Arc fault breaker may have tripped, but if there were paint fumes, one arc may have been all that was needed to start the fire.
Sprikler system may have been the only chance. You just never know.
 
W

wmartin

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ptschram said:
The biggest mistake folks make with flammables cabinets-and one that I suspect you have made, is that they are rarely ever vented outside the building. Without a vent to the outside air, the flammables cabinet becomes a potential bomb as the concentration of flammables inside can exceed the lower explosion limit and the act of opening the cabinet can be the ignition source resulting in a larger fire/explosion than would have occurred had the containers not been in an enclosed cabinet.
.
Click to expand...


That is a super good tip, and is obvious now that I think about it. I wonder how many of those cabinets have proper venting?

That's one thing that having a garage under the house in an old wood frame building will get your mind right on. I started absolutely minimizing the number of magic liquids in cans and started unplugging stuff when not in use (after a friend of mine had a super close call when his HF compressor decided to light his house on fire)...plus smoke detectors and extinguishers handy.
 
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SuperSocket

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smithbd2 said:
Breakers are supposed to trip at their rated amperage, but they dont always do it.
I watched a guy at work trying to find the breaker that fed a certain wire, he grounded the hot to a metal i-beam hoping to trip the breaker, it never did, it just welded the wire to the beam.
I was working on an old electric motor, had it plugged into a 20amp circuit, my clamp-on meter showed it was drawing more than 25 to 28 amps and it never tripped. It was a GFCI recpt also.
An Arc fault breaker may have tripped, but if there were paint fumes, one arc may have been all that was needed to start the fire.
Sprikler system may have been the only chance. You just never know.
Click to expand...

Breakers aren't meant to work in this way. That guy should not be working with electricity at all!





Fire is probably the worst disaster that you can encounter IMO, there is no recovery, no reclaim, nothing. With water at least you can restore precious items or recover some stuff... in fire even the steel is useless.
 
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Teken

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jimp said:
I can feel for him. I had great insurance and still will never recover what I lost from a couple kids with matches and 30 gal. of gas. That second picture is of my shop before the fire.
Click to expand...

Jimp,

That is just so hard to look at . . . One minute you have a picture of hard work, sweat equity, and beauty.

The next, you have nothing but rubble and ashes . . . :sad:

Teken . . .
 
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Furious D

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That just plain *****...

I was just thinking about adding some kind of fire detector in my garage after a friend of mine nearly lost his garage after a can on solvent soaked rags combusted. Lucky that his wife noticed the smoke coming out of the vents before it got to bad, just some smoke damage.


I would suggest everyone put a couple heat detectors in the shop rather than a smoke alarm. Years ago I installed a commericial smoke detector in my old garage but every time I would weld or paint the detector would alarm. It also didnt like cold and liked to sound at 3:00 AM.

Heat detectors are built to sense a sudden rise in temp and come in ratings from 135 to 200 degrees. I have a couple made by Ademco that designed to wire into an alarm panel. But I have seen stand-alone units as well that may be able to interface to an outdoor siren or strobe if your buildings not attached.
 
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ptschram

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Whenever I've been doing hot work in the shop, I leave the lights on and the door unlocked when I shut down for the night.

My wife gives me all manner of Hell for it when I go out and do a fire check a coupla times during the evening before bed.

Scares me spitless and I'm gonna do everything I can to keep it from happening to me.

As soon as we collect on another job, I'm buying more fire extinguishers. Right now,, there are several, but I want there to be no more than ten feet between each extinguisher.
 
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KCarGuy

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Yes, Good Tips...
An Good Flammables cabinets that is Vented Outside.
Lots of 15 amp circuits instead of a few 20 amp circuits. (dont overload)
The Proper sized wire to go with the correct Breaker size.
I use Conduit runs instead of Romex. (code out here)
An easily to grab Fire ext. (out in the open)
Good outlets...not those cheap Menards .99 ones.
My Garage is Detached (it can save the house if something happens)
Water in or close to your garage (most people dont have quick access)
Running equipment on the proper circuit (not Oversized breaker or undersized wire)
Outlets, switches and electrical boxes covered and sealed.
Checking to make sure that there are no natural Gas leaks or fumes.
Close any Parts washers properly and dont store gas soaked rags indoors.
Watch your welding area, hot slag can roll under objects and stay hot for a long time.

I always turn off my compressor when I am done for the night. The Motor start-up can set off an explosion if there is Fumes built up.

I would hate to see anyone loose a Shop, Garage, Home or Worse!
 
J

JMcFly

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That *****, I hope everything works out for him.

I'm always on the look for a good used flammables cabinet at govt sales/school liquidation sales. A friend scored a massive cabinet for his shop from one of those for $100... They are out there.
 
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bd8134

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I had a bit of a close call the other day. Welding on a bench and then noticed it was getting warmer on one side of me. Looked round and my plastic trash barrel was alight. Maybe not the brightest thing, but I picked it up and threw it on the grass outside. I have 2 fire extinguishers in the garage and multiple heat detectors, but the other day I ordered some more little hand-held fire extinguishers I saw on cool tools to put in my cars and 1 for the kitchen, though I have one in there already. http://www.coldfiresoutheast.com/?gclid=CJG1yd7A4awCFUdn5Qod6Hjxpg
I am replacing my trash can with a metal unit with a closing lid. I follow a suggestion that somebody said on here a while ago, wait 40mins or so before leaving the garage after doing grinding or welding.
Stay careful out there..
 
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fsae0607

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Speaking of keeping stuff unplugged, when I added outlets strictly for my compressor & shop tools, I installed a fused shut-off switch as you can see here:

20111115170805.jpg


I can leave all my tools plugged in. When I close up shop, I just turn the switch off, and all tools are de-energized. Great peace of mind.

Damn now I'm paranoid about my chem cabinet. I got brake cleaner, acetone, denatured alcohol, paint thinner and naphtha in there... anyone know a good source for those NFPA cabinets?
 
H

haugy

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Well I've postponed redoing them for a while. But this thread finally motivated me.

After $135 I now have 4 brand new smoke detectors, 2 are simple smoke only, and 2 are smoke with photoelectric cells. And one multi-gas meter for Gas leaks or CO.

After I get some more excess cash it will be 5 big fire extinguishers. 2 for the house, 2 for the shop, and 1 for the attached garage to supplement the three small ones I have for the house (kitchen, etc).

I too am very nervous about chemicals and electrical stuff. That's why I over did my electrical to hell and back, and am pretty nervous about that stuff.
 
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ndoran

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KCarGuy said:
Yes, Good Tips...
An Good Flammables cabinets that is Vented Outside.
Lots of 15 amp circuits instead of a few 20 amp circuits. (dont overload)
The Proper sized wire to go with the correct Breaker size.
I use Conduit runs instead of Romex. (code out here)
An easily to grab Fire ext. (out in the open)
Good outlets...not those cheap Menards .99 ones.
My Garage is Detached (it can save the house if something happens)
Water in or close to your garage (most people dont have quick access)
Running equipment on the proper circuit (not Oversized breaker or undersized wire)
Outlets, switches and electrical boxes covered and sealed.
Checking to make sure that there are no natural Gas leaks or fumes.
Close any Parts washers properly and dont store gas soaked rags indoors.
Watch your welding area, hot slag can roll under objects and stay hot for a long time.

I always turn off my compressor when I am done for the night. The Motor start-up can set off an explosion if there is Fumes built up.

I would hate to see anyone loose a Shop, Garage, Home or Worse!
Click to expand...

you should also ground the flammable cabinet and the containers should also be grounded before decanting even a static eletricity spark from your clothing can ignite the flammables
 
N

ndoran

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Messages
496
fsae0607 said:
Speaking of keeping stuff unplugged, when I added outlets strictly for my compressor & shop tools, I installed a fused shut-off switch as you can see here:

20111115170805.jpg


I can leave all my tools plugged in. When I close up shop, I just turn the switch off, and all tools are de-energized. Great peace of mind.

Damn now I'm paranoid about my chem cabinet. I got brake cleaner, acetone, denatured alcohol, paint thinner and naphtha in there... anyone know a good source for those NFPA cabinets?
Click to expand...

you may want to move your parts washer further away from the grinder
 
J

JYank

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Messages
19
ockie said:
Breakers aren't meant to work in this way. That guy should not be working with electricity at all!





Fire is probably the worst disaster that you can encounter IMO, there is no recovery, no reclaim, nothing. With water at least you can restore precious items or recover some stuff... in fire even the steel is useless.
Click to expand...

Few people realize that a circuit breaker trips on overload. An overload can be caused by many things; a loose connection, worn extension cord, defective appliance, etc. etc. An arc that can start a fire may NEVER pull enough current to trip a breaker. Also, circuit breakers can be defective. And don't depend upon GFCIs. They can be defective.
The best electrical advice I can give is if you don't REALLY know what you're doing, get someone who does. And use good common sense with safety; for example, don't use that power tool with the bad cord!
Good luck, enjoy your garages and shops, and let's everyone and their's be here to enjoy again the next day. :shocking:
 
N

NUTTSGT

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1BADLS1tuner said:
cant imagine how bad that would be.... if that fire started because of a shorted wire, why didnt it trip a breaker instead of arching long enough to light a fire?????

Either way its horrible, i just had my insurance add my garage on 2 days ago... (even though its not finished yet)
Click to expand...

Not that it happened at Ryan's friends house but I have seen people put pennies behind fuses, this can cause a melt down and fire.

I've seen wiring hooked up directly at the main, one was at a business during the day when the dryer caught on fire. The other time was after we bought our house and I was talking to my step dad and showing him our electrical mess in the basement. Our dryer was wired direct and not on a fuses either.

Putting a 14 gauge wire on a 20, 30 or larger amp breaker isn't very smart.

I've seen a main breaker fail, it melted the aluminum buss bar and that was pooled in the bottom of the box. What finally tripped was a fuse out on the power line about 2 poles away.

We had a report of a outlet sparking before. We got there and smoke was coming out of the gable vents and eaves. Somebody put an outlet in the wall without a box. It caught on fire and the fire went up the wall, under a stairstep, up another wall, into the ceiling/attic.

I believe I have told that story before and the other below.

Somebody had worked on a breaker box and the meter base had a bad ground. The house had aluminum siding and while the meter base searched for a ground, it traveled the siding to the aluminum gutter, down the down spout into the ground. In the mean time it got a nail hot enough to start a fire on the outside wall underneath the siding.

Be as careful as you want, if a fire wants your stuff, it'll get you. Best of luck to everybody and I hope you never have a fire. I hope the HAMB member's insurance company does him right.



Sorry for the ongoing post.
 
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