my KRL just fell over

[TheGrooveking]

I'm sure my post about driving into the manager's car is what some may think as Rambo, but let's temper this with reality. I've been in management for over 25 years and have dealt with techs for most of them and I've strongly sided with the techs who supplied their own tools. When I was 22 I was working at shop that a month prior to my starting there the shop had been ripped off as that during my interview walk thru I saw all kinds of power tools and when I started there were pegboards with empty outlines. I had my Sawzall that I bought when I was 18 in the bottom of my box and everyone borrowed it because they didn't want to have to use a hacksaw for everything, then came the day 1987 when the plant flooded (it was near O'hare airport) and my Matco cabinet was standing in 3 feet of water for 7 days.

My boss started to give me **** about the company paying to have that Sawzall rebuilt by Milwaukee (which was around $39 or so) and I gave it to him straight as that I didn't charge rent to the guys or the shop, but I would going forward because he was too cheap and that I would send it out and / or that I would take it home and he could deal with the extended repair times and project times because everyone who have to manually do their sawing.

That showed me what an *** and idiot he was since he didn't understand the benefit my tools were providing to that operation so I determined I would take his job, 8 months later I had his job. Shortly after I put together a package to justify over $10,000 worth of power tools / shop tools, including a brand new sawzall for me. The owner of the company personally went out and bought a Sawzall and presented to me with the instructions to take it home. There was a second one that he bought for the shop, my original stayed in my tool box and I still have it in my box. The owner had never known until I wrote up my presentation/justification what was happening in maintenance from a tooling standpoint, he was respectful of the money the techs put into tools to help his operation contrinue running.

So sorry for long reference story, but sometimes management doesn't know what they have until they lose it. I fully understand the market value versus the replacement value but when someone goes through a bunch of ******** because of my doing I make sure they are made whole again.

To the shop owner who takes it as that these guys and their fancy toolboxes in their shops, you sir are a disrespecting jerk. Many of your customers who bring business to you see those boxes and feel they are dealing with a more professional well equipted shop, because of those boxes they think well of your company and that they seriously invested in their tools so then they are more likely to take their job seriously.

I hope you have the integrity to explain to the surgeon who works on you in your future that you don't mind old no-name tools of questionable quality to be used on you because to me that is what you really want to tell your customers and your employees. As a manager I have had to deal with techs who have bought low grade garbage tools and were then injured because the wrench broke resulting in 7 stitches in the tech's hand. Or the time one laborer was hurt when the hammer head flew off it's handle that the tech was swinging and hit the laborer in the back. As their employer you are legally responsible for their tools, if you don't believe me ask O.S.H.A., read up on the C.F.R.1910 on hand or power tools and the safety requirements associated to them. Ignorance of the law, or ignorance in itself doesn't exempt a manager from personal liability. So consider yourself lucky so far...

TheGrooveking

 

[nate379]

It's not that people aren't careful, just stuff happens. Where did he write that techs are tossing wrenches at each other??

It's more something like a guy walking through shop with 20 ft stick of angle iron... turns to make the door and bam, against the front of your box... stuff like that.

Last year I was painting with rattle can and I actually shot paint all over my box. The nozzle was clogged and it shot like 10 feet away... happened to be pointing it right at my box. Got most of it cleaned off, but when I was wiping it down a few months ago I noticed there was some spots I missed. Oh well.

Yeah it ***** but... do you take out the fine china and silverware for the kids to eat PB&Js?? Kind of the same thing with bringing an expensive and obviously very prized toolbox into a shop and expecting it to stay brand new for many years.

 

[TheGrooveking]

I think the tossing wrench commentary is an analogy/euphenism to people being careless in the work area.

As to the **** happens comments, you guys either have a low expectation of your fellow worker or don't care about your own tool boxes. How expensive of tool boxes do you own?For those who have this **** happens attitude, do you just eat it when your someone drives into your new car? Or do you not buy new cars? To me I see it as either a don't give a **** attitude or screw everyone else attitude or I'm jealous of those who have nice things attitude, which is it?

TheGrooveking

 

[Stick Figure]

It's more something like a guy walking through shop with 20 ft stick of angle iron... turns to make the door and bam, against the front of your box... stuff like that.

and if it could hit my box it could just as easily have been a customers car that has a LOT of money in to it that takes that kind of a hit. Most people i know wouldn't find that okay. I'll be honest i've never worked in a repair type shop, only doing custom/aftermarket stuff, so maybe i am missing something.

 

[Thumper]

and if it could hit my box it could just as easily have been a customers car that has a LOT of money in to it that takes that kind of a hit. Most people i know wouldn't find that okay. I'll be honest i've never worked in a repair type shop, only doing custom/aftermarket stuff, so maybe i am missing something.

There are dumbasses everywhere......with the "oh.....it's just a toolbox" mentality that don't give a rats *** about their own stuff much less anybody elses. **** like that sets me off.

 

[Seanbev24]

For the people arguing against "fancy" toolboxes... There's a big difference between **** happens (scratches, dings, spills, overspray, even flying wrenches), and a box being ruined because a part of the shop floor failed.

Any right-minded person understands that even if the box costs 10 grand, it's impossible to keep it perfect in a shop environment. The OP seems like a reasonable guy to me and I think he'd agree.

Let's take the 10k price tag out of the equation. I use a 41" kobalt box at work now, figuring I'd start with a cheap box and spend the money on good tools. I think I paid like $550 for it. If the exact same thing happened to me, I would expect my employer to replace it with an equal box. The price tag shouldn't matter, property was damaged because the shop failed to provide a safe environment.

Tool boxes, forklifts, and cars are heavy. The drains a shop uses should be able to handle it.

 

[kythri]

I have a dumb question...

I'm trying to wrap my head around exactly how this box would fall over like it did, even with the mentioned drain issue.

Was it being pushed like this:

Or this:

It seems that it was being pushed in the latter method. If so, why? That just seems completely prone to accidentally tipping, even without the drain - say from a stray rock, bolt, something binding a wheel causing an abrupt jam or stop.

As others have mentioned, I'd like to see pics of this drain, just to get a better visual of what happened. Pics of the failed cover would be nice, too.

 

[yellowbox]

sorry but you will probably lose that battle , companys tend to say you should have your OWN insurance on your tools and box
good luck at least give it a good fight .....

 

[Stick Figure]

kythri .... on the KRL722 bottom only two of the casters on one narrow side will swivel to steer the box. the other two are fixed to only allow it to roll as depicted in the first image. Assuming that image is from the top view.

 

[tonydanzah]

first image, he crossed the drain straight on, the left rear wheel went through the drain, causing the box to drop and tip over on its back.

 

[00S4Boy]

He has to have had approached the drain at something between a 10 and 45 degree angle, instead of hitting it as a 90 degree angle. Pushing or pulling doesn't matter, was probably doing it quickly not concerned about his belongings. It sounds as if any care was put into moving your box this could have been avoided easily.

 

[tonydanzah]

He has to have had approached the drain at something between a 10 and 45 degree angle, instead of hitting it as a 90 degree angle. Pushing or pulling doesn't matter, was probably doing it quickly not concerned about his belongings. It sounds as if any care was put into moving your box this could have been avoided easily.

impossible to say

 

[00S4Boy]

impossible to say

Really because i've crossed an 18" drain with my fully loaded kra2411, and the grates in the drain were like 1.5" by 5 inch rectangles. Every time i crossed it i ensured to do it slowly, straight on not at some weird angle.

 

[tonydanzah]

if you cross it head on and one tire dropped through, good luck stopping it from falling over if its a top and bottom box.

 

[Skin]

but your basically saying its ok for management to fire you.

Did you see me condone a removal of an employee? I dont see one in there. The issue is if the management isnt in agreement, no matter who is in the right, it creates bad blood so guess who gets sent packing? I never said that was okay. But as stated the fact that its unionized will probably save him so its a non-issue.

 

[tonydanzah]

Did you see me condone a removal of an employee? I dont see one in there. The issue is if the management isnt in agreement, no matter who is in the right, it creates bad blood so guess who gets sent packing? I never said that was okay. But as stated the fact that its unionized will probably save him so its a non-issue.

very true, i guess i miss toned your messaged

 

[TCJ1981]

Really because i've crossed an 18" drain with my fully loaded kra2411, and the grates in the drain were like 1.5" by 5 inch rectangles. Every time i crossed it i ensured to do it slowly, straight on not at some weird angle.

Dont really understand the connection. If the drain gave way/broke while he was pushing his box over it, would have fell regardless of the angle of approach or speed.

 

[00S4Boy]

Dont really understand the connection. If the drain gave way/broke while he was pushing his box over it, would have fell regardless of the angle of approach or speed.

the drain probably is less then 6 inches deep i'd like to see a 54 inch long box do an endo if he approached the drain straight on, and if he was going slow he may have heard the metal buckling or shifting and may have been able to avoid the drain breaking, for all intensive purpose's we don't even know if the drain broke, or the grate shifted and fell into the drain and that caused this incident.

 

[yellowbox]

*Rant* As a previous shop owner, if a tech came to me with this I'd offer to repair his box in the manner this owner is doing (body shop). Plus I'd fix the drain. If the tech has issues with this and made a huge deal of it, he'd go walking. Then I'd let the other techs know that I would be willing to do the same repair again should something similar happen in the future for whatever reason. I'd also strongly suggest that folks not fill the shop with these overpriced shop ornaments.

Look, I like a nice box too. But I quickly got tired of having to be so careful around folks with these designer boxes. It's like parking your Porsche in the middle of a busy work bay, filled with lots of rusty, sharp, and heavy objects. Something is bound to happen. I know I'll catch hell for this, but it's my opinion.

Sh!t happens. Straighten, paint, move on. Plus, the box is only worth it's resale value, not replacement.

you sir are wrong , glad i do not work for you .....
and yeah there have been porsche 's parked in the middle of a busy work bay
and if they got damaged would you fix it ? and if the customer complained would you "fire" him and tell him to never come back ?
this is a toolbox and body shop techs are not going to fix this the way it needs to be fixed

 

[TCJ1981]

the drain probably is less then 6 inches deep i'd like to see a 54 inch long box do an endo if he approached the drain straight on, and if he was going slow he may have heard the metal buckling or shifting and may have been able to avoid the drain breaking, for all intensive purpose's we don't even know if the drain broke, or the grate shifted and fell into the drain and that caused this incident.

It fell backwards. If the box was set down slowly into the position of one wheel in the drain and one wheel on top, you're right, it probably wouldn't fall backwards. But falling from the sudden shift of weight from a drain breaking while it was on it is an almost certainty. Especially if the box was top heavy.

He said the drain "gave way". I would assume that means break, but if it did shift off instead, you're right, he was probably pushing it too fast

 

[Ser50]

i like how its turned into there being written rules of how to cross a drain,
ill clarify though, i was moving slow, i CANT move that thing fast, im far too fat and its got far too many large tools in it.

it hit at a small angle. one wheel hit the grate before another, i was completely unaware that all drains must be hit at exactly 90, my square was in my box at the time, i had no idea.

this drain is traversed daily, by vehicles, forklifts, boxes, carts, people. its actually like its not there most of the time. you do generally take it into consideration when crossing over it. this time i definitely looked, picked a section that looked smooth, and crossed.

the sections in our shop have been cut, theyre all end pieces, 1-2" long, not full lengths as they should be for stability in just such an occasion.

a short grate section fell into the drain, it did not break, sorry if 'gave way' was confusing. the drains are wider than the grates by a decent margin and the ledges are packed with dirt since our shop hasnt had a proper clean in two years. best i figure now i pinched it into the dirt beneath/next to it and flipped it up. two wheels had hit perfectly a tip over might have been avoided but there would have been double the weight on that section and i still dont believe it was 100% unavoidable that way.

i tracked down the mechanic that had the legendary last tip over. it was a decade ago, it was an old mac stack, so only 4-5 feet high, and it fell on him, drawers first, and he was able to soften the blow, and get it upright without it really 'falling'. so there, company didnt see themselves dodging a bullet, they saw nothing. now look at what that cost.

this is not my fault, i dont care what any one from an internet tool board says. facts remain the shop should provide me with a safe working environment where i can move - as im required to do - in safety with my property. and yes, they ARE lucky i wasnt hurt. that thing could have put me in the hospital.
i wasnt goofing around, i wasnt having tool box races, i was trying to get my jobs done for the company.
maybe you guys, who think this is needless, should have a box policy - roll cabs only. not top boxes. seriously. but my shop doesnt.

i never said my box was some designer thing that cant have a piece of angle iron knocked into it. THAT has happened (or similiar) and can be touched up, banged out, whatever. falling over and having the entire back side structure minorly bent is not acceptable. i have had my entire boxes back covered by undercoat without anyone even telling me. yes, it had scratches and paint on it. it was in a shop for 2-3 years.

i bought that box to last me 30 years, it lasted 3, that is far too short to have it structurally damaged AND have its value basically wiped out in one night from the company's property.

and yes, you can hate people for having a nice box if youre a short-sighted manager. but as stated, the guys in the shop with the disposable boxes are the worst mechanics i have ever seen. they dont own any tools, they cant finish a job properly, and overall they affect your bottom line whether you can see it or not.

dont worry, its not your shop.. just stop hiring good mechanics with adequate tool collections, dont take care of your shops safety, and youll be just fine with hack laborers.

thanks for the support of everyone that sees the big picture.

 

[Ser50]

im going to avoid arguing with the 'mythbusters' in this thread, theorizing how a packed 6' box falls over.

but dont worry, this is what im in for now... and im going over that drain as fast as ******* possible to spite you, on weird angles, like 32.4, and 63.2, one time, i used a fraction too.

the drain can be seen, running lengthwise, in the background... for all of its supporters. but you know what? it doesnt love you back.

 

[tonydanzah]

hopefully you get up and running soon

 

[Ser50]

thanks.

i should know by tomorrow for certain. i had a positive conference call with management today. dont want to get my hopes up, but i feel like i see the end of the tunnel, the end i wanted.

so the question remains, did big bird die that day? or do i get another ultra yellow?

now, im going to bed. continue bickering amongst yourselves about things that may or may not have happened.

 

[daveblank]

and if he was going slow he may have heard the metal buckling or shifting and may have been able to avoid the drain breaking,

If anyone was working with power tools, he wouldn't hear much if anything at all.

 

[tressler]

Just like the warning on a drill that didnt say anything about scratching your nose with a drill bit and accidentally pulling the trigger.

I do this all the time! Damn my itchy trigger finger...

 

[bmrisko]

There are dumbasses everywhere......with the "oh.....it's just a toolbox" mentality that don't give a rats *** about their own stuff much less anybody elses. **** like that sets me off.

...at the end of the day it really is just a toolbox. There are more important things in life.

 

[bmrisko]

this drain is traversed daily, by vehicles, forklifts, boxes, carts, people. its actually like its not there most of the time. you do generally take it into consideration when crossing over it. this time i definitely looked, picked a section that looked smooth, and crossed.

the sections in our shop have been cut, theyre all end pieces, 1-2" long, not full lengths as they should be for stability in just such an occasion.

a short grate section fell into the drain, it did not break, sorry if 'gave way' was confusing. the drains are wider than the grates by a decent margin and the ledges are packed with dirt since our shop hasnt had a proper clean in two years. best i figure now i pinched it into the dirt beneath/next to it and flipped it up. two wheels had hit perfectly a tip over might have been avoided but there would have been double the weight on that section and i still dont believe it was 100% unavoidable that way.

i tracked down the mechanic that had the legendary last tip over. it was a decade ago, it was an old mac stack, so only 4-5 feet high, and it fell on him, drawers first, and he was able to soften the blow, and get it upright without it really 'falling'. so there, company didnt see themselves dodging a bullet, they saw nothing. now look at what that cost.

Why does your story keep changing? First you said boxes tipping over and people falling into this grate are a common occurence, now you say the last tip over happened 10 years ago. That isn't very common, IMHO. Sounds like it is a perfectly suitable drain since people, vehicles and forktrucks cross it on a daily basis without issue.

 

[bmrisko]

im going to avoid arguing with the 'mythbusters' in this thread, theorizing how a packed 6' box falls over.

but dont worry, this is what im in for now... and im going over that drain as fast as ******* possible to spite you, on weird angles, like 32.4, and 63.2, one time, i used a fraction too.

the drain can be seen, running lengthwise, in the background... for all of its supporters. but you know what? it doesnt love you back.

Is that a piece of metal over the drain to the left of the chick? If so...

 

[logical]

*Rant*...........................................

Sh!t happens. Straighten, paint, move on. Plus, the box is only worth it's resale value, not replacement.

Sorta agree...but the resale of a repaired box is less than the resale of a used box. To be fair, you have to address that.

 

[eborcim]

Tough break...even the gov't should have insurance to replace your KRL at least with a decent used one.

 

[Skyline]

For all you folks who say repaint it and get over it, I think you are the exception. You remind me of people who never wash their car, (it's just a tool to get from point A to point B...who cares what it looks like???) Most folks who lay out near to $10k for a toolbox take damn good care of it. I've bought and sold dozens of KRLs, and other high end boxes from MAC and Matco, and can tell you that MOST folks keep these boxes in very nice condition. Ser50 is entitled to a new box. His employer, or employer's insurer is entitled to his old box (as salvage).

It takes very little to show negligence these days when issues make it to the courts. There is absolutely NO question that this would be considered negligence on the part of the employer.

Ser50: I know you said your employer covered your toolboxes, but with a high deductible. He may be looking under the wrong provision of his policy; theft and fire damage to property of others may have a different deductible than General Liability. Since this is a situation of negligence, it should fall under the General Liability provisions, and may NOT be subject to the deductible at all. Why not ask again about that?

 

[38 Special]

First, I am not a professional mechanic, but do have a lot of tools. I cannot imagine not having your box and tools insured. Figure $10K box and $20K+ in tools. That would be like driving a new car off the lot without insurance. If it was insured, then your insurance company would be going to bat for you and your maximum risk would be your deductable.

This is not a crack on the OP, but instead, food for thought for all the mechanics out there, are YOU adequately insured.

If my employer said they have insurance on your property, then I would asked to be added as an additional insured on their policy. I do this for my customers when asked, and it does not cost me additional, then you would be able to work directly with the insurance company, without having to go through the employer.

I sure hope it works out for you.

 

[warpedredneck]

mine went thru a cover over an old pit (i didnt even know the pit was there)
the owner of the shop thought it was funny and laughed, didnt even help me get it out of the pit ( i brought it up a piece at a time)
i left that job as soon as it was out, repaired the box, 3 yrs later the box collapsed (i think there was some structure damage, that i missed)
when it collaped the last time it fell forward breaking my foot,
i would say the shop should replace with the same,
eg, if it was 5 years old, source another 5yr old one in the same condition.
the last job i was at a apprentice was ******* around on a skid steer, hit my box, (snap on),folded the side in, pushed mine into another box (craftsman) wadded the c-man up,
they replaced mine 5 yr old with another 5yr old snap on that i sourced out and bought the other guy an equivalant c-man,

long story short, if it looks structural dont fix it, replace it,
my foot still aches when it rains!
hth
by the way i am a proffesional mechanic,

 

[Thumper]

...at the end of the day it really is just a toolbox. There are more important things in life.

Yeah......I guess it is.....just a toobox. When you've worked your *** off to buy something nice that will last a long time........it becomes a bit more than that.

Kinda like telling the guy that worked 10 years in a home garage restoring a 57 Chevy Bel-Air convertible to 100 point show condition with his own two hands.......that it's....."just a car".

We just see things differently.

 

[danski0224]

my box was in as-new condition until this fall. it was my baby,i hope this isnt going to be a big battle for a new one. im worried the company will try to say its still technically working and wont replace, but i dont know anything yet, i will have to wait for tomorrow, i have a union and the company should have a good policy on something that is their buildings fault.

does anyone have any experience with this? should i lawyer up? i would do it for spite even if it costs me another 10,000 to get a box.

so pissed.

Lots of luck.

You do not have any options outside of simply discussing things with the boss that won't rapidly degrade the situation.

A lawyer will not help the working relationship.

It is it unlikely that your union will do anything for you at all, besides collect dues payments.

If there is something wrong with the floor drain, and you have to lawyer up to get the point across, your employment future at the shop may not be so good.

It *****. It costs ~$10k.

A lawyer will cost more than that.

If you push things, you may lose your job.

A complete repair of the box may be impossible.

I would try for a 50/50 settlement.

If not, I would make due with another box and look for other employment.

I would not cross the drain again with my toolbox until it was made safe, and a company policy describing drain crossings was developed. Safety first.

You are lucky the major damage was confined to the toolbox. It can be fixed much more easily than you can be fixed.

And yes, seek medical attention if you have not done so.

 

[bmrisko]

Yeah......I guess it is.....just a toobox. When you've worked your *** off to buy something nice that will last a long time........it becomes a bit more than that.

Kinda like telling the guy that worked 10 years in a home garage restoring a 57 Chevy Bel-Air convertible to 100 point show condition with his own two hands.......that it's....."just a car".

We just see things differently.

That's not apples to apples. You can't buy a car like that off the shelf. A KRL can easily be re-purchased from a catalog. I was hinting at the fact that material possessions can be replaced. Like I said, there are a lot more important things in life like your health and loved ones.

 

[back2class]

This whole thing is so simple. Only GJ could over complicate it so much. I am suprised nobody said you need to call snap-on amd make sure the bix is paid off...LOL

Seriously, if the floor grate gave way as you went over it and caused the fall it is the facilities fault. If it is just a rough patch in the floor that requires you take some care going over then it is your fault. Some thing as fallin down a stair. A staircase is more dangerous than a flat floor, and we as people all accept that. Just like a grate in the floor is a rougher patch for moving stuiff over. If the staircase failed or handrail failed or the steps were slick with grease from lack of cleaning you have a case. You cant say someone is responsible if it was just lack of care on your part.

So simple....if the grate gave way as you were going over it you have a legit complaint. If it is just a reasonable obsticle and you failed to take reasonable care when going over it or not going around it you are making an **** out of yourself trying to make someone else pay.

 

[Ser50]

Why does your story keep changing? First you said boxes tipping over and people falling into this grate are a common occurence, now you say the last tip over happened 10 years ago. That isn't very common, IMHO. Sounds like it is a perfectly suitable drain since people, vehicles and forktrucks cross it on a daily basis without issue.

this makes absolutely no sense. your logic is skewed and so is your reading comprehension.

i never said anything about common occurrence and i can spell occurrence. i think i would know.

show me where i said that? i said this isnt the first time. and no, it is not.
thats also like saying theres nothing wrong with keeping a loaded gun in your kids room, for 4 years he never blew his head off, then one day, bam, must be the kids fault...

 

[bmrisko]

this makes absolutely no sense. your logic is skewed and so is your reading comprehension.

i never said anything about common occurrence and i can spell occurrence. i think i would know.

show me where i said that? i said this isnt the first time. and no, it is not.
thats also like saying theres nothing wrong with keeping a loaded gun in your kids room, for 4 years he never blew his head off, then one day, bam, must be the kids fault...

Well, if we're going to resort to grammar nitpicking, it is common to start sentences with capital letters. I also don't have time to go back and read 10 pages. It ***** that it happened, but if it had happened in the past, why not put a piece of metal over it so it wouldn't happen again, assumning management was doing nothing about it. I know for a fact you did say that, b/c I asked about it before and got no response. Also, you can add a $10,000 personal articles rider to your home insurance for like $100...for that price it makes no sense, IMHO, to count on an employeer's vague policy. I hope it gets resolved to your satisfaction and maybe you'll learn some lessons for the future.