Generator over heat protection.

[jjrbus]

Greetings, I find myself in an unknown area. I have a generator I want to add a remote shutdown and over temperature switch to protect the generator. The remote switch seems simple enough but I cannot grasp what to use for the temperature switch. The highest temp I have seem in the generator area is 104 F so thinking 110 degrees F would be sufficient. What would be the easiest, cheapest type of heat sensor to accomplish this? Looks like it needs to be normally open and close at 110 F. I have no idea what the voltage or amps are in the generator? Honda EU2200i, yes has blue tooth to shut down but in a faraday cage and I see no way to add a external blue tooth antenna.

 

[Ton ton]

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[TurnipTruck]

Shutdown switches are typically wired in series and break the circuit to alarm and/or shut down.
I don’t know if your generator needs a maintained contact to keep running (Run=shorted, stop=open) or the less failsafe vice versa.
Your drawing adds the new switch in parallel as if it needs to short the contacts to shut down.

 

[jjrbus]

I do not pretend to know much about electric and muddle my way through things with the help of forums. I disconnected and checked the off on switch with a continuity tester. When the switch is on, generator running, I have no continuity, when the switch is off I have continuity. So assuming that off is closed.

 

[TurnipTruck]

In that case, we can assume your stop button shorts the ignition to ground to kill, and your drawing should work.
Be aware that some manufacturers label their switches ”normally closed/normally open” as shelf state (sitting on the shelf), while others as running condition. A continuity tester will tell you which.

 

[jjrbus]

Shutdown switches are typically wired in series and break the circuit to alarm and/or shut down.
I don’t know if your generator needs a maintained contact to keep running (Run=shorted, stop=open) or the less failsafe vice versa.
Your drawing adds the new switch in parallel as if it needs to short the contacts to shut down.

When I unplug the on off switch the generator will not start, so must need a maintained contact. Schematic is beyond anything I can understand.

What would be the best type of thermostat, heat sensor type of switch for this?? From experimenting the highest temperature I have seen is 104 degrees, so thinking 110 shut down??

 

[mike93lx]

Curious, why do you need this thermal shutdown?

 

[jjrbus]

I have a Honda EU2200i that I use to power my RV it is in a sound deadening box. I have used the Honda's for decades but Honda changed the design on the generator and I am not comfortable that it will cool under all conditions. So want an added layer of protection.

People seem to get upset about putting a generator in a box, Honda sells a sound box for the EU series in Asia but not here. This is my 3rd sound box and I have never been able to figure how they baffle the sound in such a small space?

https://www.amazon.com.au/dp/B007RAO9RG/

 

[mike93lx]

I have a Honda EU2200i that I use to power my RV it is in a sound deadening box. I have used the Honda's for decades but Honda changed the design on the generator and I am not comfortable that it will cool under all conditions. So want an added layer of protection.

People seem to get upset about putting a generator in a box, Honda sells a sound box for the EU series in Asia but not here. This is my 3rd sound box and I have never been able to figure how they baffle the sound in such a small space?

https://www.amazon.com.au/dp/B007RAO9RG/

I bet honda's engineers have a pretty good idea of how to design a reliable generator at this point

 

[TurnipTruck]

What would be the best type of thermostat, heat sensor type of switch for this?? From experimenting the highest temperature I have seen is 104 degrees, so thinking 110 shut down??

Industrially, the very best would be a thermocouple talking to a temperature transmitter with a digital milliamp switch if you want that tight of a dead band between set/reset. If you would prefer a much cheaper but wider gap between set/reset, some sort of capillary temperature switch with a range close to 110* would work. You would have to make sure it has both normally open and normally closed contacts as these switches are typically used to turn fans ON when hot, whereas you need stuff to turn OFF when hot.

Some of those snap discs might be interesting if you get the right range. Any of the others that are adjustable would take some trial and error testing to get the set point right. Be aware that most of these switches could have a significant hysteresis that would require cooling the switch 10 or even 30 degrees to reset.
Maybe a dial thermometer?

 

[rlitman]

,,,yes has blue tooth to shut down but in a faraday cage...

Not to rain on your parade, but if you plan to use a Faraday cage to protect the generator from external electrical interference (SHTF Carrington/EMP, you do know that the power cords feeding it are giant antennas plugged directly into the inverter. The only way a Faraday cage would help is if it covered everything plugged into the generator too, at which point I'm guessing your bluetooth device would be inside already.

In the very least, I'd suggest using an oil that works well in higher heat like a 5w40 full sythentic.

 

[dcg9381]

I bet honda's engineers have a pretty good idea of how to design a reliable generator at this point

For sure, interestingly enough I cannot find any indication that the EU2200i has any sort of overheat protection... Seems to be assumed that if it's not overloading that it's going to run properly. The manual says overheat is possible (if cooling vents are blocked).

 

[jjrbus]

I used the term faraday cage, it is an aluminum truck box lined with mass loaded vinyl foam which blocks signals and bluetooth does not seem to work in it. But I did not have the wires hooked up to it so need to experiment with it again.

Honda generators are well designed, they tell me replacement parts are very expensive, I don't know as I have not had to buy one in 20+ years.

Correct no overheat protection. They added an 02 sensor, which is a pain, I would rather have an electric start or over heat protection. Interestingly Pinellis Power designed an electric start for the Honda 2000 and sold it to a company that never marketed it.

 

[jjrbus]

Industrially, the very best would be a thermocouple talking to a temperature transmitter with a digital milliamp switch if you want that tight of a dead band between set/reset. If you would prefer a much cheaper but wider gap between set/reset, some sort of capillary temperature switch with a range close to 110* would work. You would have to make sure it has both normally open and normally closed contacts as these switches are typically used to turn fans ON when hot, whereas you need stuff to turn OFF when hot.

Some of those snap discs might be interesting if you get the right range. Any of the others that are adjustable would take some trial and error testing to get the set point right. Be aware that most of these switches could have a significant hysteresis that would require cooling the switch 10 or even 30 degrees to reset.
Maybe a dial thermometer?

Thanks for the response. I will spend the evening sorting through the choices and see what I can come up with.

 

[jjrbus]

This seems to fit the bill but does not show a DC rating, which I am assuming the internal wiring of the generator is. I can move it around the box a bit to adjust the shutdown temp> https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07L969R5V/?tag=atomicindus08-20

 

[TurnipTruck]

That snap switch is normally open and closes at temperature. I believe you need a normally closed shelf state that pops open at temperature, according to your unplugged test. I didn’t find anything that states a reset temperature or deadband , so it likely could be a significant number.
Buy several, try ‘em out, experiment!

 

[theoldwizard1]

They added an 02 sensor, which is a pain, ...

The O2 sensor is so the EFI can correct the fuel mixture at different altitudes.

Segue - In the recreational inverter market, I am surprised that the only competition Honda has for this specific model is the Westinghouse iGen 2550.

EDIT : Champion now has a 2500W generator. Some models are dual fuel (gasoline and LP).

 

[jjrbus]

Honda suitcase generators have no competition! There are cheaper clones which have their place, but nothing comes close to the Hondas.

So here is my first experiment to stop the unit with a switch, I do not know how a long wire run will affect the gremlins so used a 16 foot wire which is about what I will need in the RV. Not really good at making videos.

Can't add a video, Momentary contact switch worked and let no smoke out of the box.

 

[dcg9381]

Segue - In the recreational inverter market, I am surprised that the only competition Honda has for this specific model is the Westinghouse iGen 2550.

EDIT : Champion now has a 2500W generator. Some models are dual fuel (gasoline and LP).

If the Honda is EFI, nothing else in market is EFI.

I have the Champion 2500 (inverter). Dual fuel. It's about the same form factor. No EFI, but will run on LP/Propane. I've only got break in on it (12 hours). Bought it as it'll fire my 15K HVAC on the RV.


If you're putting a box on these, you must really want them to be quiet...

 

[jjrbus]

The O2 sensor is so the EFI can correct the fuel mixture at different altitudes.

Segue - In the recreational inverter market, I am surprised that the only competition Honda has for this specific model is the Westinghouse iGen 2550.

EDIT : Champion now has a 2500W generator. Some models are dual fuel (gasoline and LP).

I can't believe how the internet messes things up, now how did CO detector morph into 02 sensor??

 

[theoldwizard1]

I can't believe how the internet messes things up, now how did CO detector morph into 02 sensor??

I don't know ? How did you do that ??

From page 88 of the Honda EU3200i Owners Manual

 

[theoldwizard1]

If the Honda is EFI, nothing else in market is EFI.

IMHO, the "jury is still out" on whether that is a good thing or a bad thing.

 

[jjrbus]

IMHO, the "jury is still out" on whether that is a good thing or a bad thing.

The new Honda EU3200i has EFI, mine is the Honda EU2200i which still has a carburetor. Honda puts out superb products but $2600 for a machine without electric start is not for me.

The Honda guru at Pinellis power designed an electric start for the EU2000i, sold a few and sold the plans to another company who never went to market with it.

If you are interested https://www.pinellaspowerproducts.com/gallery/

 

[dcg9381]

IMHO, the "jury is still out" on whether that is a good thing or a bad thing.

Care to elaborate? I'm not following any Honda genset threads. I understand that it's definitely a lot less simple stuffed into the same form factor, but I never want to own another carb'd boat, jetski, motorcycle, car, or plane again.... If I had a choice anyway.

 

[theoldwizard1]

IMHO, the "jury is still out" on whether that (EFI) is a good thing or a bad thing.

Care to elaborate? I'm not following any Honda genset threads. I understand that it's definitely a lot less simple stuffed into the same form factor, but I never want to own another carb'd boat, jetski, motorcycle, car, or plane again....

Carburetors get a bad rap especially on small engines.

Why ? Because small engine typically do not get used on a regular/daily basis. Fuel sits in the bowl, which is exposed to air, and eventually evaporates and leaves a residue that gums up small passages. Also, gasoline stored for a long time goes "bad". If you run the bowl dry and empty the tank, you will likely never have a carb problem on a small engine, even if you use gasoline WITH alcohol in it (gasp!)

I question the additional cost and complexity of EFI on any small engine. EFI, with an O2 sensor, guarantees the proper air/fuel ratio at any temperature and any atmospheric pressure (altitude). Sadly, there are a lototr EXPENSIVE parts that can fail.

 

[jjrbus]

Carburetors get a bad rap especially on small engines.

Why ? Because small engine typically do not get used on a regular/daily basis. Fuel sits in the bowl, which is exposed to air, and eventually evaporates and leaves a residue that gums up small passages. Also, gasoline stored for a long time goes "bad". If you run the bowl dry and empty the tank, you will likely never have a carb problem on a small engine, even if you use gasoline WITH alcohol in it (gasp!)

I question the additional cost and complexity of EFI on any small engine. EFI, with an O2 sensor, guarantees the proper air/fuel ratio at any temperature and any atmospheric pressure (altitude). Sadly, there are a lototr EXPENSIVE parts that can fail.

Several years ago I started using non ethanol gas, combined with running dry an draining carb, non ethanol is plentiful in Florida and all carb problems went away. I use non ethanol in the mighty little Honda except when I travel I use whatever is available, but the last tank is always non ethanol even if I have to buy the big dollar cans of Tru fuel or similar. The ethanol gas will be used in a couple days and not get a chance to dry out and gum up the works. Been doing this for a few years now with no issues. Even if there is a problem the Honda carb is simple to clean.

The electronics forum is suggesting instead of running a long wire to a switch that I use a relay at the generator to shut the generator down, which seems like a good idea.

 

[RPH]

There are virtually thousands of thermal switches available. Pick a temperature, decide manual reset or automatic.
In the application I would use the manual reset, normally closed. You have to push a button to reset it after cool down. Can of cold liquid set on it cools it quickly but I digress. By manually reserving it makes you look why it tripping.

 

[dcg9381]

Carburetors get a bad rap especially on small engines.
Why ? Because small engine typically do not get used on a regular/daily basis. Fuel sits in the bowl, which is exposed to air, and eventually evaporates and leaves a residue that gums up small passages. Also, gasoline stored for a long time goes "bad". If you run the bowl dry and empty the tank, you will likely never have a carb problem on a small engine, even if you use gasoline WITH alcohol in it (gasp!)

I get it and I agree, but even with years of using non-ethanol fuel or AV gas, draining carbs, I find EFI to be a better solution. Plus it just "works better"... Course as a consumer, I'd like the "option" because small-motor EFI is going to cost (quite a bit?) more and will require special knowledge to troubleshoot.

I question the additional cost and complexity of EFI on any small engine. EFI, with an O2 sensor, guarantees the proper air/fuel ratio at any temperature and any atmospheric pressure (altitude). Sadly, there are a lototr EXPENSIVE parts that can fail.

True... Can't wait to cuss about the cost of an 02 sensor on my generator.

 

[AA/FC]

If the Honda is EFI, nothing else in market is EFI.

Genmax is coming out with a fuel injected 3800 watt (4600 surge) generator that can be connected in parallel / series with another similar generator. So instead of doubling your amperage at 120 volts, this new generator will allow you to connect two 120 volt generators together in "series" to get 240 volts, if needed. It should be released very soon. And if I'm not mistaken, Genmax already has another fuel injected generator on the market.... The GM4500IBEFI

 

[mike93lx]

So instead of doubling your amperage at 120 volts, this new generator will allow you to connect two 120 volt generators together in "series" to get 240 volts, if needed.

That will be useful for a lot of people.

 

[dcg9381]

Genmax is coming out with a fuel injected 3800 watt (4600 surge) generator that can be connected in parallel / series with another similar generator. So instead of doubling your amperage at 120 volts, this new generator will allow you to connect two 120 volt generators together in "series" to get 240 volts, if needed. It should be released very soon. And if I'm not mistaken, Genmax already has another fuel injected generator on the market.... The GM4500IBEFI

I've got a set of the Champion 3500s with the linking function and my 2500 has it also.
I made the same assumption as you that I could get 240V out of a link... That turned out to be wrong (expensive lesson). They link for amps, but don't do out of phase. Really, if you think about it, generators could only do one or the other.

If there is a mixed mode option (volts or amps) I'd love to see it... That'd be useful.

 

[AA/FC]

I've got a set of the Champion 3500s with the linking function and my 2500 has it also.
I made the same assumption as you that I could get 240V out of a link... That turned out to be wrong (expensive lesson). They link for amps, but don't do out of phase. Really, if you think about it, generators could only do one or the other.

If there is a mixed mode option (volts or amps) I'd love to see it... That'd be useful.

No, no... This one SPECIFICALLY will connect in "series" and double the voltage. It's a relatively new thing. There is a separate cord that connects between the two generators to make them run opposite phases from each other. I specifically typed "parallel / series" on purpose because that is exactly what it says on this new Genmax model that I am talking about.

I have attached a picture of the "Parallel / series" kit that makes it all happen. Click thumbnail below to see larger picture. Notice the chrome barrel connectors with the blue and pink wires...

Also, this is the link to the Genmax kit pictured:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0C5HDM2N3/?tag=atomicindus08-20

 

[dcg9381]

No, no... This one SPECIFICALLY will connect in "series" and double the voltage. It's a relatively new thing. There is a separate cord that connects between the two generators to make them run opposite phases from each other. I specifically typed "parallel / series" on purpose because that is exactly what it says on this new Genmax model that I am talking about.

Thanks for that.. Definitely a product I'm interested in and seems to be unique in the market.

 

[AA/FC]

Thanks for that.. Definitely a product I'm interested in and seems to be unique in the market.

I should have first hand info next week. I will post back here when I know more.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Dang that will be a popular generator

 

[AA/FC]

Dang that will be a popular generator

I agree...

 

[AA/FC]

I found a picture of it:

 

[dcg9381]

Dang that will be a popular generator

Woof.. 2 of 'em ain't gonna be cheap if you want 240v.

 

[mike93lx]

Woof.. 2 of 'em ain't gonna be cheap if you want 240v.

If they end up being good, that' not terrible. Flexibility of running just one, portable, electric start and fuel injection?

I would have been concerned if they were under a grand each

 

[dcg9381]

If they end up being good, that' not terrible.

I get it, EFI is going to cost more. I'm gonna wait and see how these are the other first generations of EFI gensets pan out. I'm sure Champion will follow suit if this market takes off. Seems like lots of us want to be able to link them for 240V, but I'd wager that's not a very common use case for the majority of market. RV guys need the amps. Guys that do portable welding usually have much bigger rigs....