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If buying AMERICAN matters...

bpwoodworking

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I’ll be vague as possible to avoid running to close to the no politics rule. If I’m flying to close to the sun here let me know.

Typically it is the balancing act of competing interests that keep any entity in check. A look through history provides that when those interests can be subdued, the effect is that it exaggerates the pursuit of the remaining interests.

This seems to work better than a centralized planning system, where the ‘good’ is determined by a planning board rather than by competing interests. This sort of thing appeals to many but has proven itself more easily corruptible to weight the benefits to a few.

A corporations main obligation is to its shareholders because the shareholders own the company. Why should it be that the board would determine what good causes they would like to use the shareholders money for outside of those which create value.

This narrows the scope of the goals of a corporation to that of their stated purpose. Otherwise you may find that they’re using your shareholder money to pursue ‘good causes’ which may heavily conflict with your good causes. Rather most would prefer to benefit from ownership in the corporation and use those benefits to support the good cause of your desire.

Job creation is an outgrowth of the pursuit of financial reward. It’s not a means to and ends in and of itself. When job growth is the priority entities often become incapable of competing because the cost of existing becomes incredibly high. If they can force the consumer to spend more in order for them to accomplish their secondary goal, then they will do so but if they cannot then they are destined to fail.

In the private sector, a bloated behemoth fails on its own weight, thereby ending the benefits it once provided and destroying any value to the ownership. In the public sector, the cost is passed onto the taxpayer, raising the basic cost of living either through direct taxation or through inflation.
 
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oldpliers1

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If corporations were so benevolent in the past, why were there everThe formation of labor unions?

If they cared so much about the community, why was the EPA ever formed?

Corporations existed then for the same reason they exist today
what you say is 100% correct they have never been benevolent , I did a apprenticeship with a contractor that had a staff of 5000 on construction sites across Australia they were mean & lean , but they trained 200 apprentices per year , paid tax in Australia, paid land tax on their holdings , bought from local suppliers , we the workers were well trained,well paid , we paid taxes and all the money stayed in the economy.
A Corporation incorporated in the states manufacturing in China , is not putting money into the USA economy he is taking from it ,Communist China is the big winner , the supply chain is Chinese, the workers , the energy suppliers the packaging. The retailer / reseller gets a cut and the shareholders in the states get a cut . But the corporations would be paying next to nothing in taxes .
No apprenticeships in USA by that corporation or suppliers or state and Local governments getting anything.
It is Vicious and demeaning to the USA to have this done .
The Reparation's on Germany in 1919 removed a lot of factories out of Germany to France and England , this in turn caused mass unemployment and the rise of the socialist party .
The same thing by stealth , has happened to the manufacturing industries of England, Australia , Italy , United States and other western countries, but its been done in the name of corporate greed rather than politics.
You said the EPA point , the byproduct issue from after ww2 is the same here as the states a ongoing problem constantly finding more issues and the corporations move on and reinvent themselves and leave the cost to the tax payer.
Regards Andy here in Australia.
 

bpwoodworking

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Andy, we’re finally far enough along that I think we can see the positives and downside to many different approaches. This has produced many case studies on outsourcing vs remaining in house. Improving quality and innovating vs hollowing out the product line with gimmicks.

I feel the brands that stuck it out and have continuously improved quality while keeping their production local have benefitted more than those who decided to turn their product line into a hollowed out shell and make a large profit for a short while.
 

oldpliers1

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I've posted this before but it bears repeating.
It’s a good list , pity we don’t have an accurate one here in Australia,as there is plenty of phony companies to hide as Australian. We used to manufacture everything here.
The Governments around ww2 saw the need , and ford started manufacturing here in the 30 s and GMH in the 40s
prior to that GMH and dodge had agencies. All closed recently. It seems we have watched the decline of manufacturing and it’s sad .
 

oldpliers1

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Andy, we’re finally far enough along that I think we can see the positives and downside to many different approaches. This has produced many case studies on outsourcing vs remaining in house. Improving quality and innovating vs hollowing out the product line with gimmicks.

I feel the brands that stuck it out and have continuously improved quality while keeping their production local have benefitted more than those who decided to turn their product line into a hollowed out shell and make a large profit for a short while.
Fully agree look at Klein and channellock ( yes they have some non local items ) Estwing Starret but they have prospered internationally by being a genuine USA manufacturer. Here they have taken the main market share based on quality at a price point twice the price of a Chinese product but five x the quality. Well done 👍.
 

richfinn

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Do you consider wanting to support American companies xenophobia?

I've bought Chinese tools from the tool truck..... not sure what that means. 🤔


I'm with you on India. I'm not sure anything quality has ever been made in India. That said, someone will call be xenophobic in 2065 when the iPhone 100 is made in India, and Icon tools from HF feature India made stuff on their tool truck.

India managed to build the Taj Mahal/operational Spaceships/Nuclear Weapons, so they definitely have some technical capability. I think their biggest hurdle will always be corruption, I don't think people are inherently against India becoming successful as a manufacturer of quality goods, they just don't like any kind of corruption.
 

richfinn

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In the UK some British companies hold Royal Warrants (kind of an endorsement from the King or Queen where they can display a Royal logo on products), when I was a kid I considered it a mark of good quality and presumably gentlemanly behaviour.

Now I'm older I suspect anybody who supplies enough free stuff to the Palace can get one and gain instant Royal Kudos.

It's all marketing bullsh*t, do your research don't rely on Flags or Fancy Logos, all nations make cr*p stuff you just need to filter it out!!!
 

tak1313

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Attitudes change over time, there was no love for the Japanese in particular with the WWII generation. My Father In Law who was in the Navy and fought in the pacific wouldn't own a Japanese car, and a friend whose uncle was in the Marines wouldn't even let you park your Japanese car in front of his house! But after decades of Japan being a good world citizen, and a friend instead of enemy to the US and the west, the script was flipped

That's my problem with buying stuff from China, they're not good world citizens or friends of the US, or the west, or anything righteous. A portion of every dollar spent on a Chinese product goes to support an unfriendly government, including their military. When/if they invade Taiwan a good portion of that invasion will be financed by the US, and when 60% of the world's production of micro processors is cut off and the world economy is thrown into chaos we'll have no one but ourselves to blame. While I prefer to buy made in USA, I don't see any other manufacturing nation matching the problems and threat to democracy (support for Russia over Ukraine?) as the ROC, and that's why I avoid anything made there if at all possible
My father was a second generation Japanese living in Hawaii when they bombed Pearl Harbor. My father, along with a bunch of his friends immediately volunteered to fight for the US Army, despite Hawaii not being a State. They were put in the Military Intelligence Service where they primarily deciphered intercepted messages from the Japanese military (among other duties).

After the war, while stationed in Okinawa, he paid a local mason to create a plaque, which he set in a mountain along a trail. Over the years, it became a monument of sorts where the local population would have a ceremony to commemorate the battle and end of the war - but no one knew who put the monument there.

My father did not want anyone to know either, but as the 50th anniversary of the battle drew near, the government tried to figure out who did it. They narrowed it down, and actually contacted some of my father's friends. When they told him the government of Okinawa was looking for him, but didn't know exactly who/where he was, he told them not to tell them or he would not consider them his friend. Eventually, one of them spilled the beans because the felt they deserved to know for such an important event, and the government asked him to attend the anniversary ceremony, but he refused. They eventually sent him a framed scroll thanking him.

Also, while cleaning up during the aftermath of the battle and acting as interpreter, there was a platoon of Japanese soldiers held up in a cave that didn't believe the war was over (many instances, as everyone knows). It was a stalemate, so my father, along with a fellow MIS soldier, put their arms down and went to the entrance of the cave to show they were unarmed and asked to enter the cave.

While in the cave, he and the other soldier were able to convince the platoon that the war was over and it was their duty to surrender according to the Emperor. It is estimated they saved about 600 lives by avoiding a pitched battle, and he received the Silver Star for it.

I only found out about the above two events when I was in my 20s because my father never spoke to me or my brother about WWII. I found out about the plaque when I overheard his friend telling him about the government looking for him. I found out about the cave when another friend told him an author was writing a book about the Japanese who fought for the US during the war and was looking for him. The rest of my relatives in Hawaii didn't know about the cave incident until it was brought up by the friend that gave the eulogy at his funeral.

He was successful in getting his friends to NOT tell the author about him, so in the book, the author refers to him as "Elmer" because he was able to get some basic info from a few Caucasian soldiers. They knew him as "Elmer" because that is what they called him because his friends called him "Yama," because of his last name.
 

oldpliers1

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India managed to build the Taj Mahal/operational Spaceships/Nuclear Weapons, so they definitely have some technical capability. I think their biggest hurdle will always be corruption, I don't think people are inherently against India becoming successful as a manufacturer of quality goods, they just don't like any kind of corruption.
I was given a small set of Gedore metric wrenches made in India as a first year electrical apprentice in 79 , I still have a few and they were OK , but they were only lightly used , but replaced with Sidchrome/ facom . I bought two other Indian made items pure trash , I found some Tiapra tools ( licensed from Bahco made in India) whilst cleaning out my father in laws estate , they were 50 plus years old and good quality. Their products are very hit & miss . But Bahco & Gedore helping and controlling their products make a reasonable K mart quality tool . I like your comments .
 
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richfinn

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I was given a small set of Gedore metric wrenches made in India as a first year electrical apprentice in 79 , I still have a few and they were OK , but they were only lightly used , but replaced with Sidchrome/ facom . I bought two other Indian made items pure trash , I found some Tiapra tools ( licensed from Bahco made in India) whilst cleaning out my father in laws estate , they were 50 plus years old and good quality. Their products are very hit & miss . But Bahco & Gedore helping and controlling their products make a reasonable K mart quality tool . I like your comments .

There is a great YouTube channel about Truck/Bus Mechanics working at the roadside in Pakistan, it's flabbergasting what they achieve with very basic equipment and old techniques in less than ideal conditions, the thing that always strikes me most about them is the teamwork they employ and sheer effort used to overcome problems.
 

zendriver

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Dec 10, 2014
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Indiana
A Corporation incorporated in the states manufacturing in China , is not putting money into the USA economy he is taking from it ,Communist China is the big winner , the supply chain is Chinese, the workers , the energy suppliers the packaging. The retailer / reseller gets a cut and the shareholders in the states get a cut . But the corporations would be paying next to nothing in taxes .
It's really not that simply, IMO.

To each country's much chagrin, both US and China are addicted to trading with each other, whether they (we) like it or not. If both countries stopped all trade tomorrow, both countries would be screwed. Both know that fact full well, as we discovered with covid supply chain nightmares.

For instance US had $154 billion in exports to China ($35B in farm exports) and although trade is not necessarily "balanced" US gets tons of lower cost goods, lowering operating costs for business and purchasing consumers.

It's not a "zero sum game" as much as people would like to believe. For sure hey have plenty of shitheads in charge there (who doesn't) but this is about business. There are plenty of problems to address. Someday, manufacturing will shift more to India, Vietnam, Africa - wherever and it will be a whole other set of dynamics and problems to deal with.

Agree about the taxes, but they avoid paying them when the manufacturing is located here. That's how it works.

Really doesn't matter anyway. Bring back the factories - who is going to work in them? Now one is left for those jobs, except brown people. There is already a massive shortage of factory worker here.
 

Toold_up

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Anyone posting here from a Made in USA (CPU, memory, harddrive) computer? :dunno:

Recommended from the Secretary of the Air Force's reading list: The Hundred-Year Marathon.

It was a good read by an author qualified to write it. Gained some new perspective on manufacturing offshore...


^ I know the list says lenovo, but that is a chinese owned company that purchased the desktop line of business from IBM. I do not recommend lenovo products, they are the greatstar of the PC world...
 

MovingAlong

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BrandonV

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^ I know the list says lenovo, but that is a chinese owned company that purchased the desktop line of business from IBM. I do not recommend lenovo products, they are the greatstar of the PC world...

Not a lot of options out there. I just had an update from Dell trash six identical computers into e-waste and then the Dell technician brought a replacement ran the same update to defend them and bricked his own machine.
 

Toold_up

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Allegedly these guys do their own silicon manufacturing:



Not sure who their distributors are, or the cost of the products.

They have interesting motherboards:


Find a suitable case (looks like all pizza box servers) and happy motoring.
 

BrandonV

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Allegedly these guys do their own silicon manufacturing:



Not sure who their distributors are, or the cost of the products.

They have interesting motherboards:


Find a suitable case (looks like all pizza box servers) and happy motoring.

I think I'm in heaven.

Nothing sexier than MIL-38999 connectors.
 

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