Auto-Cle

[AntiqueBen]

Since Camille Contal's Auto-Cle ratchet & socket set played such an important role in the history of ratchets & sockets, I thought it deserves its own thread. Contal's Auto-Cle ratchet was the very first to have a set of interchangeable sockets to fit the ratchet. Ratchets before this did not have sockets. Usually the gear in the head of the ratchet was a fixed size or had a different size on each side of the gear. Richardson's ratchet from 1863 had different size gears or reducers that could be swapped out in the head of the ratchet to accommodate different size fasteners. You could also do this with Lowell Wrench Co ratchets as well. The Auto-Cle revolutionized the automobile industry. Now you could have one tool (the ratchet) that could use all the different size sockets to work on your car. Contal's Auto-Cle set paved the path for Mossberg & and basically every other ratchet & socket set we all know & love today.

These sets are rare & extremely hard to find. Often they are missing sockets or the original box. I was lucky enough to find my Auto-Cle set about a year ago in England (pics below). The ratchet is something like you've never seen before. Very unique in its construction & operation. Also, all of the pressed steel sockets bare no stamps or markings.

If you are lucky enough to own an Auto-Cle ratchet or a set, please post your pics & tell us where you found it. Also, please post any information you may know about Auto-Cle. I'm always interested to learn more. Currently I only know of 1 or 2 other people here on garage journal that has an Auto-Cle set.

Camille Contal was a brilliant guy & inventor. Way to much to list in this thread. Here is a link that explains a little about him & his contributions to the automobile industry.

Les Tricars - Contal

Tricars et trivoiturettes, petits engins à trois roues, produits 1898-1914 environ. Constructeurs, entreprises et modèles. Histoire détaillé. Rubrique technique: moteurs, changements de vitesses, carburateurs. Participation aux courses automobiles.

lestricars.es.tl

 

[crguy]

I had this set. Really liked the ratchet:

 

[AntiqueBen]

I had this set. Really liked the ratchet:

Nice set! Had?...hope you still have it I believe these sets were sold up until around 1920 or so. Do you know what the serial number was?

 

[crguy]

Nice set! Had?...hope you still have it I believe these sets were sold up until around 1920 or so. Do you know what the serial number was?

Sold it earlier this year. Don't know the serial number.

 

[AntiqueBen]

Sold it earlier this year. Don't know the serial number.

Lucky buyer It looks like it was a set from the teens. One clue was the box. The older sets had pegs for the sockets instead of holes & if it survived a brass badge on the top of the box that said Auto-Cle & the patent number. Great set. Those ratchets are real hens teeth.

 

[crguy]

Lucky buyer It looks like it was a set from the teens. One clue was the box. The older sets had pegs for the sockets instead of holes & if it survived a brass badge on the top of the box that said Auto-Cle & the patent number. Great set. Those ratchets are real hens teeth.

I thought it was cool, and it had survived in excellent condition.

 

[Patrick Eubanks]

This is my “l auto-cle set” it too was purchased in England. I feel very fortunate to have found it.

 

[AntiqueBen]

This is my “l auto-cle set” it too was purchased in England. I feel very fortunate to have found it.

Glad you chimed in Patrick. Your one of the two people I knew of that have an Auto-Cle set. It's so cool to see the brass badge on the box has survived. Just for comparison, does your sockets rest on pegs like mine? I'm also curious if your serial number is "triple" stamped on the ratchet? Mine has a serial number under the Auto-Cle name, again near the teeth by the collar, and again on the body of the ratchet at the bottom. It will be interesting to know of any differences on the ratchet.

 

[Patrick Eubanks]

The socket supports are pegs. I’ll get more pics of the rachet when I head over to the shop. I’m curious of the age as well. I have another mossberg made set that I’ll post some pics of as well

 

[Farmer J.]

We have another thread with a lot of info about these, it has a strange title though.. difficult to find! Just including the link here, as I found out a bit about them and posted it:

My favorite ratchet wrench - Mossberg Auto-Cle

Ca. 1908. I don't collect sockets & ratchets, but this was too cool to pass up. It reverses by moving the collar up/down the shaft. :thumbup:

www.garagejournal.com

 

[AntiqueBen]

We have another thread with a lot of info about these, it has a strange title though.. difficult to find! Just including the link here, as I found out a bit about them and posted it:

My favorite ratchet wrench - Mossberg Auto-Cle

Ca. 1908. I don't collect sockets & ratchets, but this was too cool to pass up. It reverses by moving the collar up/down the shaft. :thumbup:

www.garagejournal.com

Hi Farmer J. Yes, I remember this thread. You, me, CRGUY & Lugz talking about these Auto-Cle's. Your right in that the thread is oddly titled & I couldn't find it again. That is partly why I started this thread so the Auto-Cle information wasn't buried in a thread somewhere that was difficult to find. Thought I would shine a little light on (IMO) one of the coolest ratchets ever made.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

...a lot of info about these...

Not just a lot, but definitive.

...difficult to find!

Your right in that the thread is oddly titled & I couldn't find it again.

It's a Mossberg thread, because the set that the OP posted, posted again above, is a Mossberg Auto-Cle set. I posted an earlier Q.M.S. Auto-Cle set, then @Farmer J. followed with an even earlier British Auto-Cle set, and we went backwards in time in the discussion from there to work out the succession - from Contal Auto-Cle production in France (no sets on GJ) based on a French patent, to Contal Auto-Cle production in England (three sets on GJ) based on a British patent, to production in the US, presumably licensed from Contal, first by R.A.C. (no known sets found), then Q.M.S. (at least one set - mine), then eventually to Mossberg (many on GJ).

I will make sure the link in the Sticky index to that early Mossberg thread includes a reference to "early Auto-Cle", because I am not re-posting all that research in this one.

 

[AntiqueBen]

Not just a lot, but definitive.


It's a Mossberg thread, because the set that the OP posted, posted again above, is a Mossberg Auto-Cle set. I posted an earlier Q.M.S. Auto-Cle set, then @Farmer J. followed with an even earlier British Auto-Cle set, and we went backwards in time in the discussion from there to work out the succession - from Contal Auto-Cle production in France (no sets on GJ) based on a French patent, to Contal Auto-Cle production in England (three sets on GJ) based on a British patent, to production in the US, presumably licensed from Contal, first by R.A.C. (no known sets found), then Q.M.S. (at least one set - mine), then eventually to Mossberg (many on GJ).

I will make sure the link in the Sticky index to that early Mossberg thread includes a reference to "early Auto-Cle", because I am not re-posting all that research in this one.

No need to re-post anything. The link to that discussion is on this thread now. In time more pics, information & discussion will come here on this thread. I believe people will be able to find Auto-Cle information easier on a thread named "Auto-Cle."

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Agreed. But that mention in the link in the Index will help, too.

 

[AntiqueBen]

Agreed. But that mention in the link in the Index will help, too.

Yes it will Just wanted to clarify from the previous Mossberg thread, if FarmerJ's set is made in France (per post 12 & 30 of previous Mossberg/Auto-Cle thread) but with a British patent, was there an earlier French set based off the French patent 327,011 (patent pic below)? I believe FarmerJ said his sockets are marked with a size. The sockets in my set have no markings. I'm just wandering how to identify an earlier French set from the British one?

 

[AntiqueBen]

The socket supports are pegs. I’ll get more pics of the rachet when I head over to the shop. I’m curious of the age as well. I have another mossberg made set that I’ll post some pics of as well

Hey Patrick, for the sake of comparison, could you measure the width of your box? My box is 13 1/4" wide (pic below). I'm guessing yours might be a little wider. Just looking for clues to distinguish between British & French sets.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

...was there an earlier French set based off the French patent 327,011 (patent pic below)?

Yes. I posted several articles and ads in French trade journals introducing the L'Auto-Cle wrench set for the first time, all in French, in the early Mossberg thread. It was clearly being made in France for French customers.

...[ ]...I'm just wandering how to identify an earlier French set from the British one?

There are only two ways to find out. The text and images from the French trade journal articles and ads. If I recall, there was a set in a leather case, and another in a wooden box. Or, finding a set in a box where the markings on the tag are not, like Farmer J's, in English ("PATENTED") with the British patent number on it.

 

[AntiqueBen]

Yes. I posted several articles and ads in French trade journals introducing the L'Auto-Cle wrench set for the first time, all in French, in the early Mossberg thread. It was clearly being made in France for French customers.

There are only two ways to find out. The text and images from the French trade journal articles and ads. If I recall, there was a set in a leather case, and another in a wooden box. Or, finding a set in a box where the markings on the tag are not, like Farmer J's, in English ("PATENTED") with the British patent number on it.

Here are some of the differences I've noticed on my set compared to all the ones I've seen up to this point. I have no markings on my sockets. There was never a brass badge on the top of my box, or any holes indicating there was, with Auto-Cle name & patent number. I have a low 4 digit serial number that is stamped in 3 areas on the ratchet. All the others I've seen so far have had a much higher 5 digit serial number usually in only one spot. I also found a spot in my box on the inside of the lid where there use to be some kind of markings or logo of some kind (pic below). I'm wandering if any of this could a clue that this could be an earlier French set? Especially with the serial number being so low compared to others. The leather case is no doubt a French set. But it would be nice to figure out how to determine the French wooden box variant. If you can't tell already... I've gone down the Auto-Cle rabbit hole

 

[Patrick Eubanks]

The serial number on the set from England is 21173 . The box measures 13” long.

 

[Patrick Eubanks]

Here is a shot of the serial number and logo.

 

[Patrick Eubanks]

Here are some pics of my second set. The box also measures 13” long. All the sockets are marked mossberg and the rachet doesn’t have a visible serial number.

 

[Patrick Eubanks]

Antique 1910s Frank Mossberg? Socket Set Wood Box Ratchet Extension Multi-angle | eBay

The set is heavy. The toolset with box weighs close to 9 lbs. Antique 1910s Frank Mossberg?. Socket Set Wood Box Ratchet Extensions.

www.ebay.com

 

[Patrick Eubanks]

Antique 1910s Frank Mossberg? Socket Set Wood Box Ratchet Extension Multi-angle | eBay

The set is heavy. The toolset with box weighs close to 9 lbs. Antique 1910s Frank Mossberg?. Socket Set Wood Box Ratchet Extensions.

www.ebay.com

Did you guys see this on eBay? This box is set up exactly like my auto-cle box from mossberg.

 

[AntiqueBen]

Here is a shot of the serial number and logo.

Is the serial number stamped anywhere else? Mine is stamped by the logo & also stamped on the teeth by the collar & also on the body of the ratchet at the bottom (pics below). Just curious if yours is too?

 

[Private Lugnutz]

...this could be an earlier French set?

It's possible, maybe even probable, which I think I indicated on the other thread. We don't have enough data points from literature or empirical examples to be able to make a better determination than that.

Here are some pics of my second set.

That is a Q.M.S. set from the Q.M.S. Auto-Cle era here in the U.S., when Mossberg was their eastern agent and very likely the manufacturer of at least the sockets.

 

[Patrick Eubanks]

Is the serial number stamped anywhere else? Mine is stamped by the logo & also stamped on the teeth by the collar & also on the body of the ratchet at the bottom (pics below). Just curious if yours is too?

I looked thoroughly. No remaining serial number.

 

[Patrick Eubanks]

I looked thoroughly. No remaining serial number.

You don’t think that date range served as the serial number do you

 

[Patrick Eubanks]

Did you guys see this on eBay? This box is set up exactly like my auto-cle box from mossberg.

I said mossberg but I meant the box is set up like the England set.

 

[AntiqueBen]

I said mossberg but I meant the box is set up like the England set.

Your serial number on your England set is the No. 21173. I'm not completely up to speed on the Q.M.S. Auto-Cle but it appears those only have the patent dates & the word "Patented" instead of a serial number. I'm comparing differences I can find on the older version from England & France. Maybe these differences can help us distinguish between the earlier French version & the version from England. Comparing your version from England & mine, the differences we see up to this point is yours has 1 serial number & mine has 3. Also, look at the difference on how the logo is stamped when comparing ours side by side (pics below).

 

[Patrick Eubanks]

Your serial number on your England set is the No. 21173. I'm not completely up to speed on the Q.M.S. Auto-Cle but it appears those only have the patent dates & the word "Patented" instead of a serial number. I'm comparing differences I can find on the older version from England & France. Maybe these differences can help us distinguish between the earlier French version & the version from England. Comparing your version from England & mine, the differences we see up to this point is yours has 1 serial number & mine has 3. Also, look at the difference on how the logo is stamped when comparing ours side by side (pics below).

I think the four digit serial number is the key. It’s either a very early model or a different manufacturer. I bet it’s the French version.

 

[AntiqueBen]

I think the four digit serial number is the key. It’s either a very early model or a different manufacturer. I bet it’s the French version.

That's my guess too. It's good we both have one to compare all the little differences. It appears there are more differences than just the serial number. All these clues will help us & other people distinguish between versions from France & England. These differences we are discovering are not found anywhere on the Internet (that I can find), so we are in new territory.

 

[Patrick Eubanks]

That's my guess too. It's good we both have one to compare all the little differences. It appears there are more differences than just the serial number. All these clues will help us & other people distinguish between versions from France & England. These differences we are discovering are not found anywhere on the Internet (that I can find), so we are in new territory.

I would like to find a set in the mossberg stamped box. I have seen the box for sale but without the rachet. How about you extension. Is it flat from one end to the other or does it have a cut to help position the socket

 

[AntiqueBen]

I would like to find a set in the mossberg stamped box. I have seen the box for sale but without the rachet. How about you extension. Is it flat from one end to the other or does it have a cut to help position the socket

My extension does have the indents on every side on the ends to keep the sockets on the end. No ball detent. Just those tension clips like on the drive plug. My extension is a little over 9 1/4" long.

 

[AntiqueBen]

I would like to find a set in the mossberg stamped box. I have seen the box for sale but without the rachet. How about you extension. Is it flat from one end to the other or does it have a cut to help position the socket

Again, for the sake of comparison, my ratchet is 9 5/8" overall length without the drive plug (pics below ). Is yours the same? And are your sockets stamped with the size or are the blank?

 

[Patrick Eubanks]

Ok here is where it gets interesting. The “L Auto-Cle” is 9-1/2 and the auto-cle from us is 9-5/8

 

[Patrick Eubanks]

Visibly different

 

[Patrick Eubanks]

Pics of extension in set from england

 

[AntiqueBen]

Visibly different

Wow Patrick....I've noticed another major difference from your pic. Your England Auto-Cle has what looks like a standard screw in the handle near the top. Mine doesn't have this (comparison pics below). Another major difference in construction! It's interesting there is a slight difference in length between the US version compared to the England version.

 

[Patrick Eubanks]

Three different manufacturers and surprisingly three different rachets.

 

[AntiqueBen]

Three different manufacturers and surprisingly three different rachets.

Do you know what purpose that screw serves in your handle?