Table Saw Rapid Price Increases Looming

[neophyte]

It should be pointed out that Sawstop saws fon’t prevent all injuries.
The saws just prevent injuries due to blade contact, if the Sawstop feature has not been disabled.
Kickback injuries can still happen, even with a Sawstop saw, as a video from Stumpy Nubs showed, and kickback injuries can cause serious injury, even even death (rare, but it has happened).

 

[Hakeem]

Insurance companies mandated that commercial shops and schools and institutions buy them; by giving rate breaks that more than paid for the saws. The benefits to industry in lost time accidents and disabled employees has been immense, and because of the lower accident and insurance costs, have INCREASED profits, not cost the companies.

I haven’t been working that long, but in my 10 years I have never heard of an insurance company mandating a SawStop, nor have I heard of an insurance company offering sufficient rate incentives to offset the cost of a SawStop.

Can you provide a source for your claims that the SawStop saws have greatly reduced the number of accidents and disabled employees? A cursory search of OSHA and BLS research didn’t turn anything up for me. Same with your claim that SawStops have measurably increased profits for the companies that use them .. these are impressive claims but I can’t find anything to back them up. Thanks in advance

 

[rust in the eye]

More nanny state rules. There are a lot of things in most home shops that can hurt you, remove various body appendages and maybe kill you. People are careless, inattentive and not informed about the use of many tools. Hammers, screwdrivers and lawnmowers can take out various things that are desirable to keep. I wonder when they come after those as well.

While not generally a fan of nanny regulations **** happens to the best of us. A good friend and decades experience cabinet builder ran the blade of his Unisaw about halfway through the middle of the first part of his thumb. Careless? Eh, he was working while tired but he did it. This device would have saved him a very painful injury that put a one man operation out of business for a while.

 

[WillyBoy]

I'll stick with my 1959 Unisaw. All new bearings in the arbor and the motor. Miter slots lined up with the blade, two horsepower motor, and a joy to use.

 

[dnschmidt]

OK, my fingers are worth a hell of a lot more to me than $200. I can't remember the actual number but there is an amazingly high number of table saw accidents every year so in my opinion this move is LONG OVERDUE. Yea, I know I'll catch hell from the "nanny state" crowd but they will maintain that position until a second before it happens to them. As was stated in "Cool Hand Luke": Some men you just can't reach.

 

[jar944]

The Bosch version was about $1500 before the lawsuit. The sawstop equivalent is $1600 currently.

That seems to be about as cheap as a cpsc approved TS would be.

The dewalt equivalent is currently $550, so $200 more is a bit of a lie.

 

[neophyte]

OK, my fingers are worth a hell of a lot more to me than $200. I can't remember the actual number but there is an amazingly high number of table saw accidents every year so in my opinion this move is LONG OVERDUE. Yea, I know I'll catch hell from the "nanny state" crowd but they will maintain that position until a second before it happens to them. As was stated in "Cool Hand Luke": Some men you just can't reach.

There are plenty of safety issues in a shop that can easily injure a person, and most don’t get taken care of, because the cost to fix a large number of “little things” is just as much, or more than the cost of one big thing. (Ie. Buying a SawStop, and extra blades and cartridges if the safety feature trips when needed or not).
Plenty of places I’ve been to didn’t have a supply of decent safety goggles, or even safety goggles without scratched lenses, or face masks, or heating protection, or proper hepa air filtration and dust collection.
Lungs and eyes are sort of important, and it’s the fine dust that usually causes issues.

How many people on GarageJournal have one or more oily waste cans to prevent possible fires?
Or multiple fire extinguishers?
What about a fully stocked medical cabinet, with decent bandages, and disposable eye wash bottles, or an eye wash sink.
Or a splinter removal kit.

I’ve gotten splinters etc. ricocheting into my eyes even while wearing “safety goggles” because the goggles were poorly designed and left gaps.
A single false trip on a SawStop would pay for a dozen or more pairs of decent safety goggles, let alone the cheap ones that schools use.

The same goes for work gloves, do you don’t cut up your hands or get nasty splinters.

Incidentally, the major lawsuit used to push for the SawStop technology, involved a worker who was never formerly trained to use a tablesaw, who was then using a Ryobi tablesaw, without the guards in place, and without a rip fence, who lost a finger.
The injuries could just as easily happen using a SawStop saw, since some materials need the safety feature deactivated, and then the same issues can occur.

 

[Aaron_W]

I'm not against safety technology, but I am always fascinated by the pressure from some corners for Sawstop (and similar tech), but apparently no concern for all the other whirling blades of death. Miter saw, and circular saw are capable of as bad if not worse injuries. Radial arm saws seem to have worked themselves out of a job for good or bad (not a user of those so no educated opinion).

Any power saw used without proper care has the capability to do nasty things to a human body, we are much softer and squishier than the wood they are made to cut through with minimal effort.

The big whirly saws make me nervous and that is a good thing, it helps to ensure I dot all my eyes and cross my tees and treat them like the death dealing machines that they are.

 

[BrandonV]

Seems like the next logical development in making thing safer.

I know people who don't wear seatbelts either... it's all probability and statistics. Plenty of people didn't die ripping plywood with radial arm saws at gut level... and I'm sure a of people killed themselves did.

People like to complain about safety until an injury.

 

[dogdog]

all these regulations are paid for by saw stops... you know, you know.

but there are few better products out there that are better than saw stop without destroying the blades.

and all these will just make a cats out of people

 

[zendriver]

There are plenty of safety issues in a shop that can easily injure a person, and most don’t get taken care of, because the cost to fix a large number of “little things” is just as much, or more than the cost of one big thing. (Ie. Buying a SawStop, and extra blades and cartridges if the safety feature trips when needed or not).
Plenty of places I’ve been to didn’t have a supply of decent safety goggles, or even safety goggles without scratched lenses, or face masks, or heating protection, or proper hepa air filtration and dust collection.
Lungs and eyes are sort of important, and it’s the fine dust that usually causes issues.

How many people on GarageJournal have one or more oily waste cans to prevent possible fires?
Or multiple fire extinguishers?
What about a fully stocked medical cabinet, with decent bandages, and disposable eye wash bottles, or an eye wash sink.
Or a splinter removal kit.

I’ve gotten splinters etc. ricocheting into my eyes even while wearing “safety goggles” because the goggles were poorly designed and left gaps.
A single false trip on a SawStop would pay for a dozen or more pairs of decent safety goggles, let alone the cheap ones that schools use.

The same goes for work gloves, do you don’t cut up your hands or get nasty splinters.

Incidentally, the major lawsuit used to push for the SawStop technology, involved a worker who was never formerly trained to use a tablesaw, who was then using a Ryobi tablesaw, without the guards in place, and without a rip fence, who lost a finger.
The injuries could just as easily happen using a SawStop saw, since some materials need the safety feature deactivated, and then the same issues can occur.

Maybe some people consider losing a finger in an instant a pretty significant safety hazard. Even if black lung will eventually kill you

just like everything else in the future. This “ cost “ might end up just being a small amount of additional bucks more and all this hand wringing will be for nothing

 

[acer66]

I bet in the years after this get implemented we look at this like we as the majority look at seat belts, airbags etc..

Sure the guy was most likely more thinking more about his own wellbeing but that does not make it a bad thing or something one not can build on.

It is interesting the pro and contra arguments when something like this comes along are always more or less the same.

Like focussing what it does not do even it was never intended to do that or like there is something more dangerous out there like that makes a tables saw less dangerous.

Someone mentioned radial arm saws.
Stumpy nub has a great video about old ras manufactures adds which almost hilarious if they were not promoting putting the operator in great danger.

Anyway, if I ever by a new table saw it will have a safety feature like SS, Bosch etc mandatory or not.

Because while it is decades ago I still think about an accident when a coworker ran the blade through the middle of his thump nail.

What a ****** mess that was.

 

[neophyte]

Maybe some people consider losing a finger in an instant a pretty significant safety hazard. Even if black lung will eventually kill you

just like everything else in the future. This “ cost “ might end up just being a small amount of additional bucks more and all this hand wringing will be for nothing

Losing an eye ***** as well.
I’ve come far closer to that while using a tablesaw, than I have to losing a finger.
The fix would have been a stock of better chemical safety googles, that would cost $10-$20 a pair.
A supply for a year ( or two, or three, or maybe more) would cost less than a single false trip on a SawStop saw.

There are plenty of ways to make tablesaws safer, including overhead guards, push sticks, etc.

There are also plenty of power tools in a shop that are not safe for one reason or another.
Sliding Compound miter saws are a good example.

Plenty of people get injured from tablesaws because the safety guards have been removed.
Since the safety feature on the SawStop can be disabled, you wind up with the same injury potential, or worse, since users “think the saw only presents mild safety issues”.

 

[BrandonV]

Losing an eye ***** as well.
I’ve come far closer to that while using a tablesaw, than I have to losing a finger.
The fix would have been a stock of better chemical safety googles, that would cost $10-$20 a pair.
A supply for a year ( or two, or three, or maybe more) would cost less than a single false trip on a SawStop saw.

There are plenty of ways to make tablesaws safer, including overhead guards, push sticks, etc.

There are also plenty of power tools in a shop that are not safe for one reason or another.
Sliding Compound miter saws are a good example.

Plenty of people get injured from tablesaws because the safety guards have been removed.
Since the safety feature on the SawStop can be disabled, you wind up with the same injury potential, or worse, since users “think the saw only presents mild safety issues”.

My grandfather lost an eye in the era of no safety doing something that shouldn't have exploded on paper as an experienced machinist.

Accidents happen.

 

[olds70supreme]

It seems some people wouldn't mind or even want this safety feature for their saw.

Some people don't.

There isn't a law preventing the owner of the tech from selling directly to the consumers that want it, so why doesn't he do that? That way everybody can decide if the level of risk is worth it (everybody can have their cake and eat it too, with or without 10 fingers).

 

[American Locomotive]

I'm not against safety technology, but I am always fascinated by the pressure from some corners for Sawstop (and similar tech), but apparently no concern for all the other whirling blades of death. Miter saw, and circular saw are capable of as bad if not worse injuries. Radial arm saws seem to have worked themselves out of a job for good or bad (not a user of those so no educated opinion).

Any power saw used without proper care has the capability to do nasty things to a human body, we are much softer and squishier than the wood they are made to cut through with minimal effort.

The big whirly saws make me nervous and that is a good thing, it helps to ensure I dot all my eyes and cross my tees and treat them like the death dealing machines that they are.

There are 6x more table saw injuries every year in the U.S. than there are miter saw injuries.

 

[K13]

There are 6x more table saw injuries every year in the U.S. than there are miter saw injuries.

Not only that but amputation numbers in table saw injuries are about 2/3 the total of Miter saw injuries.

 

[alinc100]

IIRC one of the main stumbling blocks on the SawStop fiasco was the original owner knew he had a pretty good device that certainly can save many fingers from severe damage. After going to all the major mfg's and getting turned down he opted to try to force the Government to mandate every saw new/used/retrofit HAD to have his device , which would have made him Uber rich and the Government would be the bad guy forcing every saw owner to upgrade.

 

[Miss the Pontiacs]

Guess this means I’ll have to reinstall by blade anti kick guard as well.

 

[bpwoodworking]

Exactly, plenty of folks work to continuously improve the safety of their shops but simply do not need or desire government mandate to accomplish it.

There are far better versions out there than the sawstop one. Look at what is on Felder and Martin saws.

 

[Pexto]

Not only that but amputation numbers in table saw injuries are about 2/3 the total of Miter saw injuries.

Where are you and @American Locomotive finding these data? And are there data on the total number of e.g. Miter saws and table saws sold?

 

[PoorUB]

I find this all hilarious as I was getting **** about wearing seatbelts in another thread, but here we abhore new safety items!

 

[xjfish]

I'll just buy one at a garage sale for $50?

 

[Firebrick43]

I find this all hilarious as I was getting **** about wearing seatbelts in another thread, but here we abhore new safety items!

Most of us dissidents don’t find abhorrent the safety item in discussion, we find abhorrent the individual and/or company and his disgusting methods attempting to mandate his only available solution.

 

[WillyBoy]

The single most dangerous machine in my entire shop where there are multiple drill presses, lathes, table saws, grinders, buffers, sanders, both belt and disk, shapers, radial arm saw.

The one I'm using at the time.

There are no guards that are effective 100% of the time. I have to keep that in mind ALL the time.

 

[tarbellb]

This seems appropriate right now:

 

[neophyte]

IIRC one of the main stumbling blocks on the SawStop fiasco was the original owner knew he had a pretty good device that certainly can save many fingers from severe damage. After going to all the major mfg's and getting turned down he opted to try to force the Government to mandate every saw new/used/retrofit HAD to have his device , which would have made him Uber rich and the Government would be the bad guy forcing every saw owner to upgrade.

The “inventor”, wanted an insanely high licensing fee, that would have been higher than the average retailer selling tablesaws made off the sake of the saws.
The “inventor” also refused to self indemnify the saws in case of injuries using the technology.
The “inventor” also didn’t realize lots of standard construction materials couldn’t be cut while the safety feature was in use, and one of the power tool companies he tried to sell the technology to had to point the issue out to him.
The “inventor” then became even more of a narcissistic douchebag, and tried to force the technology on everyone, while still getting his cut.

I suspect, the executives at the major power tool manufacturers have learned to recognize a giant @sshole over their career, and realized the “inventor” qualified, and were only willing to try to work with him so far, till they wisely walked away.
Black & Decker nay not have the best reputation among tool users, but they aren’t complete @ssholes.
When B&D bought Dewalt, for the name, since the “Black & Decker” name had gotten associated with cheap consumer tools, they let the managers at the original Radial Arm Saw manufacturer take over production of the saws, just under a new name.
That Radial Arm Saw manufacturer is still in business, manufacturing Radial Arm Saws under “Original Saw Company” name, along with other industrial tools. (Home Depot buys the saws gor store use)
When B&D bought the line of Elu portable power tools from the original German manufacturer, they still allowed the company to continue in business manufacturing their industrial line of stationary tools under the Elumatec brand name.
I’m fairly certain the same thing has happened a number of other times as well.
If the SawStop inventor couldn’t work out a deal with B&D, it’s highly likely it was the inventors fault, and not B&D’s.

 

[AEAdam]

The injury numbers are staggering. Any civilized population would ban the table saw.

As stated earlier, the numbers (last I looked) were 30,000 accidents involving emergency room visits from table saws alone. 3,000 life changing amputations/year in the USA.

As a former pro woodworker, I got to meet many many woodworkers and many had been maimed by the TS (or the jointer). And they weren't "young dumb guys" who lacked training and bought cheap unsafe saws. They were older pros who knew better, had a habit and history of unsafe techniques, and simply looked away, or had a momentary lapse in judgement.

Sawstop is like a seat belt or anti-lock brakes. It will initially increase the price of the item, then that will be the price of every item and you won't even think about it. The cheap easily removable plastic guards have never worked because they get in the way. Every shop I've ever been in has removed the safety guards from their table saw blades. Sawstop works without adding a device that limits the utility/functionality of the tool. Its really quite ingenious.

 

[zendriver]

It seems some people wouldn't mind or even want this safety feature for their saw.

Some people don't.

There isn't a law preventing the owner of the tech from selling directly to the consumers that want it, so why doesn't he do that? That way everybody can decide if the level of risk is worth it (everybody can have their cake and eat it too, with or without 10 fingers).

Hopefully because they are not that dumb.

Somebody buys the "macho" version, zips off a finger and they are not going to sue the manufacture anyway (and win), for selling an "unsafe" saw?

 

[olds70supreme]

Somebody buys the "macho" version, zips off a finger and they are not going to sue the manufacture anyway (and win), for selling an "unsafe" saw?

I'm not sure I understand. Who is the "they" in your post?

 

[mike93lx]

The injury numbers are staggering. Any civilized population would ban the table saw.

As stated earlier, the numbers (last I looked) were 30,000 accidents involving emergency room visits from table saws alone. 3,000 life changing amputations/year in the USA.

As a former pro woodworker, I got to meet many many woodworkers and many had been maimed by the TS (or the jointer). And they weren't "young dumb guys" who lacked training and bought cheap unsafe saws. They were older pros who knew better, had a habit and history of unsafe techniques, and simply looked away, or had a momentary lapse in judgement.

Sawstop is like a seat belt or anti-lock brakes. It will initially increase the price of the item, then that will be the price of every item and you won't even think about it. The cheap easily removable plastic guards have never worked because they get in the way. Every shop I've ever been in has removed the safety guards from their table saw blades. Sawstop works without adding a device that limits the utility/functionality of the tool. Its really quite ingenious.

Alcohol has entered the chat.

Those are rookie numbers

 

[AEAdam]

Alcohol has entered the chat.

Those are rookie numbers

Lol. Please explain.

 

[neophyte]

The injury numbers are staggering. Any civilized population would ban the table saw.

As stated earlier, the numbers (last I looked) were 30,000 accidents involving emergency room visits from table saws alone. 3,000 life changing amputations/year in the USA.

As a former pro woodworker, I got to meet many many woodworkers and many had been maimed by the TS (or the jointer). And they weren't "young dumb guys" who lacked training and bought cheap unsafe saws. They were older pros who knew better, had a habit and history of unsafe techniques, and simply looked away, or had a momentary lapse in judgement.

Sawstop is like a seat belt or anti-lock brakes. It will initially increase the price of the item, then that will be the price of every item and you won't even think about it. The cheap easily removable plastic guards have never worked because they get in the way. Every shop I've ever been in has removed the safety guards from their table saw blades. Sawstop works without adding a device that limits the utility/functionality of the tool. Its really quite ingenious.

“Sawstop works without adding a device that limits the utility/functionality of the tool. Its really quite ingenious.”
The Sawstop technology literally does limit the functionality of the tool.
This is the reason it’s possible to override the safety function.
If you couldn’t the safety function, there are plenty of materials that might, or would, cause false trips of the mechanism.
Some of those materials requiring the override, are the mire likely materials to cause jams or other issues were kickback, or loss of workpiece control is more likely, which in turn is one of the major ways blade on flesh injuries happen, however in this case, the “miracle” safety saw, would not have the safety function operating.

 

[whateg01]

“Sawstop works without adding a device that limits the utility/functionality of the tool. Its really quite ingenious.”
The Sawstop technology literally does limit the functionality of the tool.
This is the reason it’s possible to override the safety function.
If you couldn’t the safety function, there are plenty of materials that might, or would, cause false trips of the mechanism.
Some of those materials requiring the override, are the mire likely materials to cause jams or other issues were kickback, or loss of workpiece control is more likely, which in turn is one of the major ways blade on flesh injuries happen, however in this case, the “miracle” safety saw, would not have the safety function operating.

FFS

This sounds like the argument that you die in a car fire because you are belted in. The positive effects far outweigh the potential negative effects. I'm not a sawstop fanboy but I've seen multiple pictures of local people who have made contact with the blade and the sawstop did its thing. Would they absolutely have lost an arm if it hadn't? Maybe. Maybe not. Would it have sucked for them if they had? Probably.

 

[AEAdam]

Conductive materials can trip the saw stop like really wet woods, most or all of which you shouldn’t be cutting on a table saw. I guess we could agree to disagree. I‘d say saw stop doesn’t limit the functionality of a sensibly used table saw. The plastic guards really do.

 

[mike93lx]

Lol. Please explain.

Alcohol related deaths are 140k a year

In the United States alone.

If it was a new invention, there is zero chance it would be legal. Table saws aren't going anywhere

 

[AEAdam]

Alcohol related deaths are 140k a year

In the United States alone.

If it was a new invention, there is zero chance it would be legal. Table saws aren't going anywhere

Gotcha. Drink driving, smoking, over eating, all have pretty negative effects on us. I guess the difference is, we really could end or greatly reduce table saw injuries with not much effort.

BTW, aerospace engineers (not this one) are working on increasing levels of driving aids (not quite autonomy) that will make driving safer. These aids may someday be mandated, just like back up cameras were. And I suspect people will complain about it.

I’m looking forward to the software that makes cars go when the light turns green.

 

[mike93lx]

Gotcha. Drink driving, smoking, over eating, all have pretty negative effects on us. I guess the difference is, we really could end or greatly reduce table saw injuries with not much effort.

BTW, aerospace engineers (not this one) are working on increasing levels of driving aids (not quite autonomy) that will make driving safer. These aids may someday be mandated, just like back up cameras were. And I suspect people will complain about it.

I’m looking forward to the software that makes cars go when the light turns green.

A ban isn't not much effort, though, especially in the US

I love driving aids and look forward to the day I can get in my car and tell it where to take me. Things like adaptive cruise reduce stress and, at least for me, make me drive slower

Lots of cars today alert when the vehicle in front is pulling away. Green light notifications can't be too far away

 

[whateg01]

..., just like back up cameras were. And I suspect people will complain about it.

I’m looking forward to the software that makes cars go when the light turns green.

Based on the comments on my thread about a backup camera recall, I agree. And I really are with the green light. I watch cars creep forward into the intersection while we wait for green, then the light turns green and they just sit there.

 

[neophyte]

FFS

This sounds like the argument that you die in a car fire because you are belted in. The positive effects far outweigh the potential negative effects. I'm not a sawstop fanboy but I've seen multiple pictures of local people who have made contact with the blade and the sawstop did its thing. Would they absolutely have lost an arm if it hadn't? Maybe. Maybe not. Would it have sucked for them if they had? Probably.

There is a difference between offering a feature, and requiring that features use.
Some seatbelts were not designed properly, and routinely used to cause injuries, for years, till the issues were realized and resolved.
The sane was and is true of airbags.
A bunch of these injury scenarios happened to children.
Having a constant beeping because a seatbelt isn't used, or is not fastened, causes distractions that can cause accidents.