whateg01
Well-known member
Maybe that's a feature intended to make you put it on so the distraction stops.
Table Saw Rapid Price Increases Looming
- Thread starter Wamsutta
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neophyte
Well-known member
A lot of construction materials are âwetâ.
Sometimes this is because the material is left outside in the rain.
In a lot of cases though, itâs simply because construction wood is not dried to a low moisture content, because the high moisture content makes the material more flexible, easier yo work in some ways, and even helps with screwing and nailing the material, as well as helping those fasteners hold better as the lumber slowly dries out over time.
Pressure treated lumber in addition to having a high moisture content may also have additives that will trip the SawStop system.
Other construction materials like insulation have foil coatings for performance reasons.
Some pre finished coated materials like moldings and painted wood materials used in cabinets have foil layers to help prevent water intrusion, or as a vapor barrier.
There are also people who use tablesaws with specialty blades for cutting sheet metal.
I recall an article mentioning it about one tool maker, maybe the founder of Bridge City Tools, using a metal blade to cut sheet brass for squares.
whateg01
Well-known member
I can cut all of that on a sawstop without it tripping. I suppose the extra step it takes might serve as a reminder to be extra careful since the user knows the safety net is removed.
neophyte
Well-known member
Humans have been drinking alcohol since the Neanderthal days.
Plenty of other animals drink alcohol as well, usually in the form if fermented fruit, because itâs âniceâ to get sh!tfaced occasionally.
As for distilled alcohol, itâs a tradeoff with something like beer or wine.
Beer and wine usually gave a certain amount of methanol, but both also have vitamins and minerals that can be beneficial.
Properly distilled alcohol should have a much lower amount of methanol, but the vitamins and minerals etc. get removed.
I should note, Iâm not advocating being an alcoholic, or consuming alcohol when it can impair function and cause dangerous situations, but alcohol is consumed for reasons, which can have heath benefits.
mike93lx
ALLIANCE MEMBER
Not debating merits of alcohol here. There are plenty of studies out there that address it and the science is not completely clear
neophyte
Well-known member
My worry, is that the extra step will just cause people to leave a saw running, without the safety system engaged, or that turning the safety system off will become so automatic, that a tired worker will do so without even thinking about it, which leaves the same dangerous system in place, as tablesaw workers getting complacent with safe tablesaw use, before the SawStop system even existed.
johnre
Well-known member
The one time I attempted a rip cut on a PT 4x4 with my SawStop, I thought I was OK as I had laid the piece against the blade and noted there was no indication of conductive material. But once inside the piece, it did sense conductive material and it cut off the sawâs power, stalling the saw as I was steadily feeding the piece in. I was initially puzzled and thought I had either tripped the safety brake or bumped the start / stop paddle with my hip, but no, there was no trip, and the paddle was still pulled out in the "run" position.
Then I noticed a flashing red/greeen light sequence on the control box, which I had to check out in the user manual. The explanation was that the controller knew it wasnât seeing a finger touch, but it also knew that if the cut was allowed to continue, any real touch might not be properly detected and the safety brake not actuated. So it did the best thing it could for the situation, which was to remove power and not let me cut any further.
I simply pushed the paddle back in, overrode the safety feature with the key, restarted the cut, and finished it as I would on any ordinary table saw.
My behavior around my SawStop is no different with or without the safety brake being active. A table saw is a dangerous tool, and the safety brake feature is merely the last resort that might save a severe hand or arm injury when all other safety precautions have failed me. I donât count on it doing this and act like a bonehead because itâs there, however.
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whateg01
Well-known member
Good for you, I suppose.
WillyBoy
Well-known member
If someone decides a Sawstop is worth it to them, there are things to check before using.
Case in point: last year I was browsing the local Wood Craft place and saw someone walk in with a Saw stop cartridge that had fired while running. A new 10 inch blade was firmly buried in the brake assembly. I overheard the owner explain. He was using an after market miter gauge and hadn't slid it past the blade to check for clearance before starting the machine. The edge of the gauge actually extended a small fraction into the blade path, something that could have been adjusted first. An expensive lesson. Not a condemnation of the technology but, be aware of what could trip the cartridge besides fingers.
Case in point: last year I was browsing the local Wood Craft place and saw someone walk in with a Saw stop cartridge that had fired while running. A new 10 inch blade was firmly buried in the brake assembly. I overheard the owner explain. He was using an after market miter gauge and hadn't slid it past the blade to check for clearance before starting the machine. The edge of the gauge actually extended a small fraction into the blade path, something that could have been adjusted first. An expensive lesson. Not a condemnation of the technology but, be aware of what could trip the cartridge besides fingers.
The buyers of the macho model
Their finger is gone. The customer can except responsibility for that, or contact a missing finger lawyer
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reader2580
Well-known member
Saws with Sawstop technology were sold by the inventor until he sold the company to a German company.
dnschmidt
Well-known member
The problem with the macho model is that YOU end up paying macho man's bill. If he can't work anymore he goes on welfare. If he hires a lawyer he causes whomever he sues to go out of business or raise prices for everybody. The Germans understand this phenomena more than anybody else. Their safety laws make OSHA, EPA and the Consumer Protection Agency look like children they are that strict. Ever wonder why you can't buy a fixed based router in Europe? That's why itâs Plunge Routers Only in Europe as they consider these safer. Also, ever see a European table sawâs rip fence. They stop before the edge of the back of the blade so there can be no kickback.
I think it's all relatively academic. Even if enacted, it will take years, if not decades, to see any meaningful changes in accident rates.
Note that I am NOT advocating against the regulation.
Look at all the table saws that are still running to this day that were made in the 50s and even earlier (quality issues aside). I think the odds of someone with good running table saw, that they are satisfied with, running out and buying a new saw because of the implementation will be extremely small. So that leaves the people who need to replace a saw or are just getting into the hobby/business and wanting a NEW saw.
THEN, they are going to hold on to said saw, with new fangled tech for years, if not decades, before they start filtering into the vast used market. It will be a VERY long time before even half of the saws "in the field" will contain the tech.
Just my opinion. As said, I am NOT against the tech - or even the regulation. For myself, I've been ogling a SawStop ever since they came out, but can't stomach laying out the cash, so I just trudge along with my older CMan 22124 that I got from a local Sears that was dumping the floor model for $200 because it was discontinued (I was using a Delta contractor before that).
Note that I am NOT advocating against the regulation.
Look at all the table saws that are still running to this day that were made in the 50s and even earlier (quality issues aside). I think the odds of someone with good running table saw, that they are satisfied with, running out and buying a new saw because of the implementation will be extremely small. So that leaves the people who need to replace a saw or are just getting into the hobby/business and wanting a NEW saw.
THEN, they are going to hold on to said saw, with new fangled tech for years, if not decades, before they start filtering into the vast used market. It will be a VERY long time before even half of the saws "in the field" will contain the tech.
Just my opinion. As said, I am NOT against the tech - or even the regulation. For myself, I've been ogling a SawStop ever since they came out, but can't stomach laying out the cash, so I just trudge along with my older CMan 22124 that I got from a local Sears that was dumping the floor model for $200 because it was discontinued (I was using a Delta contractor before that).
neophyte
Well-known member
And he kept trying to force the technology thru legislation as a safety requirement, which would gave forced all new saws manufactured to license his technology, or require his saws to be the ones for sale.
neophyte
Well-known member
Euro power tools have pluses and minuses as far as safety.
The really strict safety requirements may be just for âIndustrial Ratedâ power tools.
Iâm not sure what âIndustrial Ratedâ refers to, but a woodworking magazine from years ago mentioned it in relation to German/European power tool manufacturers, and Festool and Metabo were apparently NOT specified as âIndustrial Ratedâ, but Fein and Lamello were âIndustrial Ratedâ.
The rating might have had to do with safety electronics, that maintained âconstant speedâ, and shut off the tools in case of power interruption.
As for fixed vs Plunge base routers, there are tradeoffs for both.
Fixed based routers have a lower center of gravity, which helps with balancing and straight cuts.
Plunge base routers have the plunge feature, which limits needing to tilt a router to do a plunge cut, which can be dangerous with larger bits.
Otherwise European regulations tend to ban dado heads, while handheld power tools that use similar large cutters are still sold and available in Europe.
Stopping a tablesaw fence before the end of a cut may help prevent kickback, but it also leads to no guidance at the end of a cut.
johnre
Well-known member
I think a riving knife is the best piece of equipment to have on a table saw to prevent kickback, and it adds very little cost to the saw. Whereas, a rip fence, shortened or not, will do very little to help out when a piece âsprings outâ on you while being cut.
neophyte
Well-known member
I agree on riving knives.
I wish there was a company, that custom made riving knives, in various thicknesses, and various sizes, so you could optimize safety for blades with different thicknesses of kerf and for the blade plate thickness, as well as allowing the use of smaller diameter blades.
duneslider
Well-known member
My brother is a doctor at a hospital and said he sees several victims of tablesaw accidents a year. He is also a bit into wood working, he says he wouldn't buy a tablesaw without safety technology like the sawstop. He currently is trying to stick to his tracksaw.
I have a tablesaw and have all my fingers but have had a couple kickback incidents but I try to be extremely mindful of my fingers. If I were going to buy a new saw I would spend the extra money for a sawstop but I am not going to go buy a new saw just for that function. I have witnessed people get caught by tablesaws, skillsaws, and radial arm saws. Frankly, the accidents I have witnessed were worse with the skillsaw and radial arm saws. I still feel the most nervous with tablesaws.
I have a tablesaw and have all my fingers but have had a couple kickback incidents but I try to be extremely mindful of my fingers. If I were going to buy a new saw I would spend the extra money for a sawstop but I am not going to go buy a new saw just for that function. I have witnessed people get caught by tablesaws, skillsaws, and radial arm saws. Frankly, the accidents I have witnessed were worse with the skillsaw and radial arm saws. I still feel the most nervous with tablesaws.
Boogerman
Well-known member
This a good reminder; wish thread came up before end last tax year. Going to put unisaw up for sale, order sawstop soon as floor space clear. $2500 or so difference in cost from sell unisaw, cheap insurance for the safety feature.
I cut a tendon in my hand many years ago; 6 months of healing and a lot of medical costs made a square chisel mortiser seem real cheap after that. I also cut a finger off same hand a few years before that; it was really in the way for more than a year during healing; loss of utility in that hand from 2 injuries made me switch permanently from left handed to right handed.
Think I'll invest in saw safety BEFORE invoking the medical bills and the inconvenience.
There are 3 types learners in this world:
1) Some learn by reading and studying.
2) Some learn by watching others or being told by others.
3) Some have to pee on the electric fence themselves.
I try to be type 1 or 2 learner.
I cut a tendon in my hand many years ago; 6 months of healing and a lot of medical costs made a square chisel mortiser seem real cheap after that. I also cut a finger off same hand a few years before that; it was really in the way for more than a year during healing; loss of utility in that hand from 2 injuries made me switch permanently from left handed to right handed.
Think I'll invest in saw safety BEFORE invoking the medical bills and the inconvenience.
There are 3 types learners in this world:
1) Some learn by reading and studying.
2) Some learn by watching others or being told by others.
3) Some have to pee on the electric fence themselves.
I try to be type 1 or 2 learner.
catalytic
Well-known member
I have personally watched a sawstop save most of a hand. "BOOM" and everyone needed new pants not new limbs. The operator was learning the craft. Not distracted, just making a more complicated cut and things went a little sideways quicker than expected.
The day I saw it save that hand was the day I contacted dealers to get one.
To their great credit, they are extremely well made saws. A SawStop is the only machine in my extensive machine collection that is not an industrial 1940's-1970's American or German or Swiss iron. They could have made it a lot cheaper/less accurate, and to their credit, they made it nice.
I'm not the only one -- I know multiple shops that are all the best old American iron (Delta/Oliver/Yates/etc./etc.) that have a few SawStop cabinet saws in the middle.
I have never understood why SawStop makes people so angry. I have a lot of hours around 3 of their cabinet saws and one of the contractor models and I am absolutely NOT relaxed around a table saw just because it has a sawstop...it can still launch a kickback through you (happened to the guy at my local lumber yard) or malfunction and forget to stop eating your hand...
The day I saw it save that hand was the day I contacted dealers to get one.
To their great credit, they are extremely well made saws. A SawStop is the only machine in my extensive machine collection that is not an industrial 1940's-1970's American or German or Swiss iron. They could have made it a lot cheaper/less accurate, and to their credit, they made it nice.
I'm not the only one -- I know multiple shops that are all the best old American iron (Delta/Oliver/Yates/etc./etc.) that have a few SawStop cabinet saws in the middle.
I have never understood why SawStop makes people so angry. I have a lot of hours around 3 of their cabinet saws and one of the contractor models and I am absolutely NOT relaxed around a table saw just because it has a sawstop...it can still launch a kickback through you (happened to the guy at my local lumber yard) or malfunction and forget to stop eating your hand...
johnre
Well-known member
My neighbor is an ER physician at the local hospital designated as the trauma center, so he sees some of the worst of the shop and industrial injuries in the metro area. According to him, table saws cause some of the most severe injuries, often involving amputations of fingers or even half a hand, but drill presses of all things are the most common occurrence, albeit with less severe injuries. Typical anecdote he hears is that someone tried to hand-hold sheet metal while punching through with a larger diameter bit; this typically wonât amputate but it will cut to the bone.
Should I ever fire off my SawStop safety brake, I promised to give him the blade and spent cartridge as a show-and-tell exhibit for his office to show to those clients who have had near-misses with finger amputation. Unfortunately for him, itâs been eight years so far with no brake incidents, and I intend to keep things this way.
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neophyte
Well-known member
SawStop makes people angry, because the inventor was an egotistical @*******, who tried yo force âhis technologyâ, on the American public, while claiming his saws were âbetterâ, and should be the only ones sold.
Then, when Bosch took his lead, mostly due to all his claims about regular tablesaws being âunsafeâ, he sued Bosch to have their saws removed from the American market. (By American, I mean USA, as that is how the BBC uses the term)
First off, he didnât âinventâ the technology, at least the most important parts of detecting flesh with capacitance, or quickly dropping the blade.
Detecting blade flesh contact existed in at least two separate patents, before SawStop saws were even invented, or the âinventorâ had the idea, and both patents mention industrial equipment, including power saws.
Cut off saws were the blade rises from below, then quickly drops down beneath the cutting table existed for decades before the sawstop, as did the Norsaw, were you raise the saw blade up from below on a lever handle attached to the motor, and then drop that handle so the saw blade lowers. (Sort of a reverse miter saw, but also designed so the saw can be used for ripping, or large cross cutting, like a tablesaw).
The riving knife design is a nice safety feature, and was not standard on a lot of major US tablesaws at the time the SawStop saw was âinventedâ, but riving knives were hardly unknown at the time, since the knives are standard on European saws, snd had been probably for decades at that point.
I think one video or article I read mentioned dome of the other safety features on the SawStop being similar to the Swiss/French Inca saws, but the âinventorâ of SawStop claimed to have come ip with the ideas independently, without knowing about the Inca design.
For not only an attorney, but a patent attorney, the SawStop âinventorâ was either the laziest, or sh!ttiest researcher possible, or he specifically âleft outâ information on previous patents and prior art concerning safety features found on his saws.
Most of these things I mentioned would have been found by going thru the back issues of a single woodworking magazine like Fine Woidworking, which would just require a decent public library, and looking thru various industrial machinery and supply catalogs, and woodworking dealer catalogs, practically all of which could have been requested for free when the âgeniusâ patent attorney âinventedâ his technology.
Another major issue with the SawStop design, is that it is just a fancy US style tablesaw, modeled after the fairly standard Delta or Powermatic US style tablesaws, but with the flesh sensing technology, and supposedly made nicely.
If all you want is a standard American style circular saw, but with the fancy flesh sensing technology, this is fine.
However, there are plenty of other âtablesawâ designs, that were arguable better and safer than the standard US designs.
The SawStop âinventorâ didnât use a lot of those design features, even though many, or even most, were not under patent any longer.
Sliding tables on tablesaws go back decades, and are somewhat standard on European tablesaws that are sold in the USA.
The sliding tables vary, but some have the one half of the tablsaw to sliding, on one side of the blade.
This us usually accompanied by clamping spots or points, that allow a piece to be fastened to the top, and easily run thru the saw blade, without the users hand coming anywhere near the blade. ( not available on SawStop saws)
Overhead blade guards, blade guards, that attach to the tablesaw frame or cabinet, rather than mounting on the saws splitter or riving knife are another safety feature SawStop didnât use.
Since these guards hang over the blade, rather than being mounted directly behind the blade, the overhead guards can be easily moved out of the way for grooving. These were standard on some Inca tablsaw, and woodworking equipment suppliers like Garrett Wade carried aftermarket versions. Iâm not sure when SawStop came out with their version, but it certainly wasnât available as standard when the saws were first released.
johnre
Well-known member
Yes, it is quite loud. And thereâs more to it than just noise.
While I havenât yet fired my own off, I was once allowed to do the hourly Saturday hotdog demo on SawStop day at my local hardwood shop. They had eye protection to loan me, but unfortunately no hearing protection, and I now regret the latter.
Mind you, I and everyone else present and watching knew what was coming. But it still was quite a shock to see it all unfold first hand just a few feet away, especially for me.
First, it was the contractor model, not the cabinet model, so with less inertial confinement the whole saw jumped a bit, which I didnât expect.
My psychological reaction? I first instinctively drew back my hands from the table surface - pointless, of course, for those who have witnessed the speed of table saw incidents - then I covered my ears and audibly said âOwwwâ. Those who were close by watching then reacted to my reaction, looking at my hands and trying to figure out what happened to me to cause me to react that way, of course.
We then all calmed down and had a look at the hotdog, which was exactly where I left it on the table. Less than a skin-deep cut; this would have easily been a band-aid fix only.
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Firebrick43
Well-known member
There is. They are called SendCutSend
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johnre
Well-known member
SawStopâs initial plan was not to be a table saw builder, but merely to license their technology to others already established in the market.
When they couldnât interest even Delta and Powermatic, the two big boys in the market, they realized that it wasnât going to work out that way, so they bit the bullet and designed what we now call their Industrial cabinet saw model, expecting it would succeed enough that they could slowly introduce lower cost models into the market and have a rather complete coverage - which theyâve done.
Putting myself into SawStopâs shoes, I can see that it would make total sense to mimic as much as possible the non-IP-protected features on what would be their two biggest rivals selling into professional shops and industry - Delta and Powermatic (who at the time were still US-built), and not overdo it with too many other features from the other makes.
I donât disagree with most of the other assertions you made about SawStopâs legal activities, but it all has to be taken into context.
And FWIW one small nit here - SawStop does now offer a sliding table feature, as well as a floating overhead blade guard.
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neophyte
Well-known member
The sliding table for the SawStop is basically an aftermarket add on sliding table.
A true Industrial Sliding table on a tablesaw basically has half the table top sliding on one side of the saw blade.
As can be seen in this Northfield saw, although the sliding table isnât demonstrated.
I highly doubt these sliding tables have any type of patent protection, since the design goes back decades.
Also, calling the SawStop Industrial saw an âIndustrialâ saw, when you compare it yo something like the Northfield, is sort of a joke.
A true Industrial Sliding table on a tablesaw basically has half the table top sliding on one side of the saw blade.
As can be seen in this Northfield saw, although the sliding table isnât demonstrated.
I highly doubt these sliding tables have any type of patent protection, since the design goes back decades.
Also, calling the SawStop Industrial saw an âIndustrialâ saw, when you compare it yo something like the Northfield, is sort of a joke.
reader2580
Well-known member
The Northfield is also just over $22,000 before tax and shipping. It is heavy duty to the extreme. A woodworking business that needs this kind of saw is probably better off with more specialized equipment rather than this behemoth. There are all kinds of specialized woodworking machines for production shops that many of us have never even heard of.
The high school I went to had mostly Northfield Machinery equipment in the wood shop. The radial arm saw and the lathes were not Northfield. I loved the Northfield machines in woodshop class. The 14" table saw was a beast and had a really nice sliding fence. It would cost between $85,000 and $100,000 to buy those machines in today's dollars.
neophyte
Well-known member
Ryobi made a couple version.
The sliding table doesnât come as close to the blade as on the Northfield, but it does come way closer than on your average US tablesaw.
It looks like Festool is now using the design on their cordless tablesaw.
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neophyte
Well-known member
HundScheisse
New member
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Only a fool would trust electronics to protect their body parts. The saw safety devices will be like airbags and other electronics that periodically have masses of faulty parts sneak into the supply chain.
Sawstop looks to be interested in the âgreater goodâ
www.cpsc.gov
SawStop Dedicates Its Patent for Public Use, Boosting CPSC Rule to End Table Saw Amputations
SawStop Dedicates Its Patent for Public Use, Boosting CPSC Rule to End Table Saw Amputations
tool_scrounge
Well-known member
A lot of interesting comments here regardingSawstop looks to be interested in the âgreater goodâ
SawStop Dedicates Its Patent for Public Use, Boosting CPSC Rule to End Table Saw Amputations
SawStop Dedicates Its Patent for Public Use, Boosting CPSC Rule to End Table Saw Amputations
https://toolguyd.com/sawstop-patent-promise/
Airbags save 10s of thousands of lives every year
Probably doesn't matter anyway.
There are surely companies globally who can figure out a similar technology, if they want to sell table saws in the US.
neophyte
Well-known member
Airbags also occasionally kill people, including children, which is the reason certain airbags can be deactivated.
The main issue in most tablesaw accidents, is users who have no familiarity with tablesaw safety (ie. Amateurs),
Or people with a huge amount of exoerience, who get over confident, or who try yo use a tablesaw while rushed, or fatigued, and who make a mistake they knew they shouldn't make.
The Sawstop may help the amateurs, but there are plenty of ways for overconfident professionals and experienced users to still screw up.