scooby074
Well-known member
AFAIK the last producer was the Pétromont Varennes refinery in Quebec. That refinery was closed in 2008ish. No fire AFAIK http://www.otherbb.com/2008/02/ptromont-will-close-its-two.html
Why Was MAPP Gas Discontinued?
- Thread starter dr_clyde
- Start date
AFAIK the last producer was the Pétromont Varennes refinery in Quebec. That refinery was closed in 2008ish. No fire AFAIK http://www.otherbb.com/2008/02/ptromont-will-close-its-two.html
the reason I was told is the fitting leaked when you put the bottle on the torch. My best torch head is the 'gun' style MAPP. I have a newer Bernz one for MAP-Pro but that gun style was better for tight spaces. I have most of 2 little bottles of MAPP left. Anyone want to make me an offer I can't refuse?
Firebrick43
Well-known member
Maybe you should improve your reading comprehension skills before making wholesale disparaging remarks about previous generations. It's also uncooth and against the forums rules to make such statements.
Maybe if you were not so full of yourself and "your generations" wisdom you could hear some real wisdom from others. Hypothesis in those "sources" you listed are not facts. Even in the articles is states their are other social and economic issues at play. For example, millininials and gen z are to busy playing video games in thier parents basement to commit crime.
Second, you should understand just because you read it on the internet doesn't make it completely true or it doe not have a political bias, which from those sources it does.
Third. While leaded gas caused many issues your statement about lead bullets and weights means your really have no idea how lead acts or its environmental impacts. Solid lead bullets are inert. They don't break down somehow magically give you lead poisoning. lead poisoning comes from ingestion of lead dust(in paint or from liquid erosion of lead pipes) or liquid forms such a leader gasoline. The only animals that have lead poisoning issues is water fowl as they pick lead shot(small pellets from a shot gun) up from the bottom of a pond as the mistake them for small stones. Fowl have gullets where they store and use small stones to grind their food. The lead pellets are abraded by the stones and again, forms lead dust. Lead shoot use in hunting water fowl is has been illegal since 91. But lead rifle and pistol bullets are inert and a non issue unless you like chewing on them? CA did it as a back door way of limited guns by making shooting more expensive.
finn
Well-known member
Well, Firebrick, your post seems to have a lot of political spin in it, too.
Pot meet kettle.
Pot meet kettle.
TMcCay
Well-known member
Well stated Firebrick!
That's generally an overblown issue. I've had a line of pex-a sitting outside the house for 3 years in full sun under pressure with zero issues. I just got rid of it last month when I finally moved the laundry inside (yay California).
Two Speed
Well-known member
You need to think long term about the damage. Not short term, what happens in 10 years, or 15 years? Maybe even 30 years and now your UV exposed pipe has prematurely become brittle and that constant vibration from them redoing the road infront of your house has a pex line rupture due to UV induced britleness.
dutchgray
Well-known member
The manufacturers of the pipe would not have a uv exposure limit if it was not necessary, keeping it out the light is very much a good idea.
When these types of water pipes first came into use in the UK, they used them for heating systems and ran them out of the floor straight into the radiators, you had about 6" exposed in the room, this was fine but after a few years they would start to get brittle and when caught by a vacuum cleaner would snap off. Then we would have a join under a floor and used a short length of copper to come up, keeping the plastic pipe in the dark.
bigdav160
Well-known member
I stepped into a local hardware store yesterday to pick up padlock and noticed at least 6 bottles of MAP gas on the shelf 
I stepped into a local hardware store yesterday to pick up padlock and noticed at least 6 bottles of MAP gas on the shelf
You sure it was actual MAPP gas? The Map-pro cylinders look close enough that most of the general public and quite a bit of GJ still think MAPP is being made.
MAPP gas hasn't been made since 2008. Over 10 years is a long time for that much product to sit on the shelf at a hardware.
pancho400cid
Well-known member
This topic came up again at work today. Started Googling and lo-and-behold I'm lead right back to good 'ol GJ.
So to summarize the handful of posts directed at the actual "What happened to MAPP gas?" question:
MAPP gas production was never very profitable, and it's survival was questionable from the get-go. Ultimately the only facility in North America making MAPP - Pétromont and Co. LP - in Varrennes Quebec, near Montreal ceased production in 2008 due to a lack of profitability. Cessation of production was for business reasons, and had nothing to do with a plant fire, health/safety concerns, EPA/governmental regulation, etc. There are numerous MAPP knock-off products (MAPP pro, etc) with similar chemistry, names, and packaging but which are generally regarded not to perform as well as true MAPP gas.
Or that's what I take home from the various discussion and links....
So to summarize the handful of posts directed at the actual "What happened to MAPP gas?" question:
MAPP gas production was never very profitable, and it's survival was questionable from the get-go. Ultimately the only facility in North America making MAPP - Pétromont and Co. LP - in Varrennes Quebec, near Montreal ceased production in 2008 due to a lack of profitability. Cessation of production was for business reasons, and had nothing to do with a plant fire, health/safety concerns, EPA/governmental regulation, etc. There are numerous MAPP knock-off products (MAPP pro, etc) with similar chemistry, names, and packaging but which are generally regarded not to perform as well as true MAPP gas.
Or that's what I take home from the various discussion and links....
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chrismenke
Well-known member
Don't tell the lawyers, but Prop 65 labels may cause cancer, birth defects or other reproductive harm.
theoldwizard1
Well-known member
From Wikipedia ...
That would certainly keep demand down !
That would certainly keep demand down !
MikeF2316
Well-known member
I remember reading this at one time, but can't find any references anymore. What I remember it was a byproduct of some process that is not used anymore.
rlitman
Well-known member
It's from the nickel in the alloy. And yeah, it's nuts.
You are quite misled (no pun intended). And how can you say out of one side of your mouth that lead is inert in the environment when you then turn around and admit that lead pellets are a well understood issue with water fowl.
Anyway, lead has also been measured in fish, due to the use of lead weights.
Finally, the largest source of danger from ammunition is actually in the primers, which release it in gaseous form. But lead absolutely builds up in dangerous levels at ranges that use lead. It's not something that's going to jump out and hurt you though, unless you don't take reasonable precautions.
Are these reasonable reasons for an outright lead ammunition ban. Heck no. I agree that it was a line of California back door BS. But lead isn't nearly as safe as you make it out to be.
Not a byproduct. What I recall was that it was a precursor chemical made for the production of another very profitable chemical (an industrial refrigerant / blowing agent, IIRC) that is not used anymore. Since that line was shut down, the larger call for MAPP evaporated, leaving MAPP production no longer profitable.
PugetDude
ALLIANCE MEMBER
mikehaugen
Well-known member
Thank you for this thread. I will admit that I had no idea that true MAPP gas had been discontinued. I don't use it enough to have a great baseline, but I have been finding it less useful lately and this probably explains it.
jrsavoie
Well-known member
Back in the day, it seems most used air acetylene.
jrsavoie
Well-known member
I've had a few torch heads that would leak and drain a bottle of gas.
It's been so long since I used them much. I can't remember which are the leakers.
jrsavoie
Well-known member
Did you buy it?I stepped into a local hardware store yesterday to pick up padlock and noticed at least 6 bottles of MAP gas on the shelf
mike93lx
ALLIANCE MEMBER
You are replying to a 4 year old post
jrsavoie
Well-known member
mike93lx
ALLIANCE MEMBER
I replied to you, not a 4 year old post.
You posted three times in this thread today before I posted to mention it was old.
Hohn
Well-known member
DO tell. I'd like to see that list that history is "full of."
There was a YT vid where someone tested the "new" MAPP against regular propane using typical torches. I'll see if I can find it, but I recall the end result was that when using a MAPP torch compared to the regular torch, the new MAPP was only a few degrees hotter so it didn't make sense to pay the premium.
Note that I BELIEVE there was a more significant difference between new MAPP gas with MAPP torch versus regular propane with propane torch. I believe the thought was it was because of the additional air mixing that happens with the MAPP torch.
Edit: Found it - https://youtu.be/VjRWRsLobpM?si=V8oxLphi99SFnRgM
Note that I BELIEVE there was a more significant difference between new MAPP gas with MAPP torch versus regular propane with propane torch. I believe the thought was it was because of the additional air mixing that happens with the MAPP torch.
Edit: Found it - https://youtu.be/VjRWRsLobpM?si=V8oxLphi99SFnRgM
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rlitman
Well-known member
Swirl flame torches do get hotter than conventional torches. The heat is a little less focused, and the noise (at least with my Turbo Torch tips) is annoying, but I do find they have their place.
pelletman
Well-known member
Probably the least of our worries considering the pipes that bring water to our houses and their age
pelletman
Well-known member
Funny, I don't remember many school shootings and autism and a whole bunch of other stuff when I was a kid. BTW, did you see the scandal about the Harvard cancer science "researchers" in the headlines recently?
theoldwizard1
Well-known member
I think it was Chicago that, until the 80's (?) REQUIRED lead pipes from the city main into your home !
pelletman
Well-known member
When you put a label on EVERYTHING you are warning NOBODY of ANYTHING!
theoldwizard1
Well-known member
My gut says it had to do with cost. I'll bet MAP Pro is cheaper to manufacturer.
I have a bernzomatic oxy mapp gas kit that I bought back when mapp was still being made, guessing early 2000's. Tried using for the first time today, couldn't keep it lit, any added oxygen blows it out. It's old school mapp. I more recently bought a oxy-acetylene porta-a-torch kit, need to have the tanks filled or do the exchange.
Here's the muffler I want to braze, from a little B/S engine from '73.
See attached,
John
Here's the muffler I want to braze, from a little B/S engine from '73.
See attached,
John
Attachments
above poster, check to see that the tip is clear.
John, that little oxy-fuel (actual MAPP or Map/Pro which is pretty much just propylene or what I've recently seen on some big-box store shelves labelled as 'MAPP' but which is just propylene with a different label because "MAPP" was a trademark and not the 'legal' chemical requirement of the gas) torch set IIRC is rather picky about getting the oxy-fuel ratio just right. You have to constantly adjust the gas knobs as you add more of one gas (oxy or fuel) you have to add a little more of the other to keep everything still working in the flame.
I still have one of those, haven't used it in a long time though. It was a very small flame IIRC, but it did get hot enough that with oxy-MAPP (real MAPP) you could get steel up to 'kindling' temperature and then turn the fuel off and actually CUT steel with the oxygen jet only. Nowhere near as well or as thick as a 'real' oxy-fuel cutting torch can do, but it did do it. Very short run-time on the little ~1 ft3 oxy cylinder too, and expensive for the amount of oxygen you get in the little cylinder.
As mentioned, check the tip for damage or an obstruction.
But even though brazing is useful and handy and all, I'd probably MIG or TIG weld the muffler back together instead of brazing it. Once you put brass/bronze brazing filler on the steel, you have mostly eliminated EVER being able to weld the steel (without the major pain of removing ALL of the brass/bronze filler).
(I did use my little oxy-MAPP torch set to attempt to braze a cracked muffler for a car back in the day, because I was cheap and didn't have a welder and the replacement muffler cost much more than the little torch set. IIRC, I was able to apply the filler and fill the cracks but the braze repair did not hold up well and cracked again pretty quickly. I think I did end up replacing the muffler. Thinking some more, I think I also used the little torch to do a braze repair on a stainless steel measuring cup where the factory spot welds holding the handle to the cup failed and that repair has held up.)
If you want/need to try a braze repair on your little muffler, PRACTICE first on some scrap of similar size and thickness. IMNSHO, use the port-a-torch instead of the little torch though. It is MUCH more capable (yeah, I have one of those too
), but it is also much more capable of melting a hole right through the steel muffler. Hence the need to PRACTICE.
I still have one of those, haven't used it in a long time though. It was a very small flame IIRC, but it did get hot enough that with oxy-MAPP (real MAPP) you could get steel up to 'kindling' temperature and then turn the fuel off and actually CUT steel with the oxygen jet only. Nowhere near as well or as thick as a 'real' oxy-fuel cutting torch can do, but it did do it. Very short run-time on the little ~1 ft3 oxy cylinder too, and expensive for the amount of oxygen you get in the little cylinder.
As mentioned, check the tip for damage or an obstruction.
But even though brazing is useful and handy and all, I'd probably MIG or TIG weld the muffler back together instead of brazing it. Once you put brass/bronze brazing filler on the steel, you have mostly eliminated EVER being able to weld the steel (without the major pain of removing ALL of the brass/bronze filler).
(I did use my little oxy-MAPP torch set to attempt to braze a cracked muffler for a car back in the day, because I was cheap and didn't have a welder and the replacement muffler cost much more than the little torch set. IIRC, I was able to apply the filler and fill the cracks but the braze repair did not hold up well and cracked again pretty quickly. I think I did end up replacing the muffler. Thinking some more, I think I also used the little torch to do a braze repair on a stainless steel measuring cup where the factory spot welds holding the handle to the cup failed and that repair has held up.)
If you want/need to try a braze repair on your little muffler, PRACTICE first on some scrap of similar size and thickness. IMNSHO, use the port-a-torch instead of the little torch though. It is MUCH more capable (yeah, I have one of those too
), but it is also much more capable of melting a hole right through the steel muffler. Hence the need to PRACTICE.oldschoolcraft
Well-known member
I remember MAPP gas as a kid, not exactly knowing what it was, didn't realize it had been discontinued. also didn't realize until this thread that it gets almost as hot as acetylene!
One of the exciting things about future home ownership for me is the ability to own an acetylene torch, which seems necessary for certain car repair situations gone wrong.
If MAPP was still around, did it require a second oxygen tank like an oxygen acetylene torch? Or could you have just a single small D-tank full of MAPP and do 90% of the things that acetylene can do? I remember seeing small tanks, probably D-tanks in Home Depot a long time ago next to Propane tanks.
One of the exciting things about future home ownership for me is the ability to own an acetylene torch, which seems necessary for certain car repair situations gone wrong.
If MAPP was still around, did it require a second oxygen tank like an oxygen acetylene torch? Or could you have just a single small D-tank full of MAPP and do 90% of the things that acetylene can do? I remember seeing small tanks, probably D-tanks in Home Depot a long time ago next to Propane tanks.
Cruzan80
Well-known member
Waiting for the "Which Torch Set should I buy" thread...
Air-fuel is nowhere near as hot as oxy-fuel.
Acetylene is the only common fuel gas that can be used for welding steel via oxy-acetylene welding. Both because of the temperature of the flame and the heat of the flame (NOT the same things) and because it forms a shielding gas cloud around the molten and hot steel to shield and protect the steel from the atmospheric oxygen and nitrogen.
Oxy-propane can be used for heating or brazing things and for cutting steel (well, the oxy-propane is in the preheat flames to get the steel up to 'kindling' temperature and then the cutting action is from the pure oxygen jet that hits the hot steel causing it to actually burn and thus be cut when you hit the cutting lever on the cutting torch).
Air-propane = plumber's torch
Air-MAPP = plumber's torch with more heat and a higher temperature flame, but there is no more MAPP available
Air-propylene (aka MAP/Pro or whatever they are calling it) = slightly hotter than air-propane and 3-4x the cost for the gas cylinder
Air-acetylene = hotter still, with a different flame zone of a HOT flame tip compared to propane or such
Different torch types/designs like a swirl tip can get more "heat" but not a hotter flame temp for the fuel being used.
Then you move up to oxy-fuel torches. Same general ratings, just everything is HOTTER (because pure oxygen instead of 20% oxygen-80% nitrogen in air means lower temperatures because less oxygen and nitrogen gets in the way of the combustion process and cools off the flame too).
Acetylene is the only common fuel gas that can be used for welding steel via oxy-acetylene welding. Both because of the temperature of the flame and the heat of the flame (NOT the same things) and because it forms a shielding gas cloud around the molten and hot steel to shield and protect the steel from the atmospheric oxygen and nitrogen.
Oxy-propane can be used for heating or brazing things and for cutting steel (well, the oxy-propane is in the preheat flames to get the steel up to 'kindling' temperature and then the cutting action is from the pure oxygen jet that hits the hot steel causing it to actually burn and thus be cut when you hit the cutting lever on the cutting torch).
Air-propane = plumber's torch
Air-MAPP = plumber's torch with more heat and a higher temperature flame, but there is no more MAPP available
Air-propylene (aka MAP/Pro or whatever they are calling it) = slightly hotter than air-propane and 3-4x the cost for the gas cylinder
Air-acetylene = hotter still, with a different flame zone of a HOT flame tip compared to propane or such
Different torch types/designs like a swirl tip can get more "heat" but not a hotter flame temp for the fuel being used.
Then you move up to oxy-fuel torches. Same general ratings, just everything is HOTTER (because pure oxygen instead of 20% oxygen-80% nitrogen in air means lower temperatures because less oxygen and nitrogen gets in the way of the combustion process and cools off the flame too).
And what type of ignition tool....wait til he needs a helmet.