I know. Saying something like it can help manage usage might be better because It's more like they're hoping the different pricing will affect when people will do things. Don't know how well that really works because im sure most people are limited to how much they can change their schedule to use power at different times unless they don't work.
Smart Meters…
- Thread starter smokey0810
- Start date
I know. Saying something like it can help manage usage might be better because It's more like they're hoping the different pricing will affect when people will do things. Don't know how well that really works because im sure most people are limited to how much they can change their schedule to use power at different times unless they don't work.
wyliesdiesels
Well-known member
IIRC those turn up the thermostat when they dont detect anyone in the house
4 FN 27
ALLIANCE MEMBER
This is a hot topic in our household. In the past 30 days, my Wife has spent a few days on the phone with Excel put on hold, transfer after transfer and due to her not letting it go found a person willing to tell her where this is heading.
I will summarize what I have been walking into since she started this quest...and F me I am tired of hearing about it. Not like we have other options...well we do...there is a 40KW NG Generator behind the house and ultimately it may be a more cost effective solution during peak demand hours.
Our house we can opt out (and we have for now). My shop we cannot as I have commercial 3 phase on a residential property and they are not going to allow commercial power to opt out at this point.
Basically the Smart Meters will report your usage 24-7 (@American Locomotive is spot on).
During peak demand you will be paying a higher rate based on the delta from the "average user" (yet to be defined) to what you are using during those periods. According to my wife, based on your location it could be up to twice the rate in the short term and higher later on.
High demand here from what she is saying is from 3 pm until 9 pm. Well that is 25% of the day...
Sometime after January 1, 2025 there are going to be some hearings to finalize the short term and long term implementation of the new billing (my word) process. Excel is a Public Utility and thus ultimately the Gov has the final say...I am sure you are aware of where this is heading...let's see...Smart Meters first, get the buy in and then expose the charges.
Reading between the lines, I have not once in my 14 years of living in this house seen a meter reader check out meters...somehow they are remotely getting the data...so why the Smart Meter? So they know the demand by the hour, minute or second and can bill accordingly based on peak demand. That makes sense.
Where I lien towards frowning on the Tinfoil Hat people is when they gaslight saying your rate will be tied to your tax bracket and shutting off your power or limiting it...and I certainly hope they are wrong.
We are moving forward in a new age of AI and it will be used against you...data gathering is the key to AI...
freedommachine
New member
- Joined
- Jun 27, 2023
- Messages
- 3
For now... but 5, 10 or 20 years from now? It is impossible to know what will come.
The IoT infrastructure is necessary to implement centralized control. If you do not allow smart devices, appliances or meters on your property; there is less of a need to be concerned about how they may be used against your best interest. However, it is always good idea to keep an eye on what may come, even if it doesn't directly effect us.
My 2 cents anyway.
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We belong to a Co-op. To date after 37 yrs of membership I have to give LaPlata Electric high marks. Patronage capital is paid out every year.
But, things are changing & fast. Started w/ smart meters maybe 4 yrs, ago. Then came an app to monitor your energy consumption, pay your bill etc. Recently the app was upgraded to what you see here. Electrical use by category.
I called BS on it even though you build your own model by type of use. I heat w/ wood, passive solar & natural gas & don’t need air conditioning yet you can not model a home w/o the app showing electric heat! Likewise for other imbalances & air conditioning! They basically blew me off by explaining its not perfect yet. The board just voted to walk away from their long term contract w/ Tri State, the wholesaler at a cost buy out of hundreds of millions. Yet, no replacement for them in the pipeline & no more residential solar electric as they cant handle the excess at non peak hrs. So far the smart meter has allowed them to implement very high rates for peak hrs. based on a complex formula of desired outcome. I’m talking multiple dollars per KWH. The future does not look bright. Something else is afoot as my monthly bills have been about $30.00 cheaper than average since I called them
But, things are changing & fast. Started w/ smart meters maybe 4 yrs, ago. Then came an app to monitor your energy consumption, pay your bill etc. Recently the app was upgraded to what you see here. Electrical use by category.
I called BS on it even though you build your own model by type of use. I heat w/ wood, passive solar & natural gas & don’t need air conditioning yet you can not model a home w/o the app showing electric heat! Likewise for other imbalances & air conditioning! They basically blew me off by explaining its not perfect yet. The board just voted to walk away from their long term contract w/ Tri State, the wholesaler at a cost buy out of hundreds of millions. Yet, no replacement for them in the pipeline & no more residential solar electric as they cant handle the excess at non peak hrs. So far the smart meter has allowed them to implement very high rates for peak hrs. based on a complex formula of desired outcome. I’m talking multiple dollars per KWH. The future does not look bright. Something else is afoot as my monthly bills have been about $30.00 cheaper than average since I called them
Stuart in MN
Well-known member
I've had the Xcel system for many years. The way it works is it cuts power to the a/c condenser for short periods, I think 15 minutes. It's not connected to the thermostat. If it's ever actually been actuated at my house I wasn't aware of it, although I understand heat conditions in Texas are more extreme than in Minnesota.
cvairwerks
Well-known member
Pat: Unfortunately California is trying to implement the income based electric fees now. Under AB205, they get to charge users a fixed fee per month based solely on the account holders income, no matter what their power usage is.
Xcel has in their FAQ on the smart meters, that they are not currently planning on using the smart meters to control appliances at this time....Their current software does not have that capability. Weasel worded, so if they decide to implement it, and people howl over it, they can say that they told customers that it was coming...
AntonLargiader
Well-known member
I don't see how anyone can't foresee that more sophisticated energy management is in our future.
wssix99
Well-known member
I guess you are fortunate to have the freedom to choose, but in most parts of the country people do not and the meters are just replaced. If you don't want the smart meter, you don't get power.
Thanks for posting, because you don't need to listen to the negativity or watch the tin foil hat videos on youtube. I can share that I have had a smart meter on my house for 7 years and life has been immeasurably better. I get:
- detailed energy usage reports from my power company
- the option to buy wholesale power, which has saved me over $5K
- my power outages are radioed immediately to the poco by the meter; no need for me to call. All I have to do is go straight online and I can see the status of my power, where the problem is and an ETA to resolution
- the smart meters in my neighborhood work in conjunction with automated circuit breakers on the poles. when a pole goes out or we have a lightning strike, the poles automatically re-configure and we don't need trucks to come out. before smart meters, we had power outages that would last several hours multiple times a year. since smart meters and the other infrastructure on the poles, our power hasn't been out for more than a few seconds - ever!!!
The difference is like having light bulbs for light vs. candles.
I think you have figured out that the poco is going to cut the power no matter what for wind. (smart meter or not)
dcg9381
Well-known member
Lol. You know they do that anyway, right? They call it "rolling blackout". It's not uncommon here. It's just "planned power outage" when they have capacity issues.
I do know providers here where you can "opt-in" to some control of your thermostat (you get a discount), but again, you have to "opt-in" and I believe in most cases, you can still manually override it.
I very much doubt that Google or Amazon are adjusting the temperature in your home (doing so would be all downside for them). But again, if you opt into your providers "smart thermostat" I'd read the fine print. Some of these thermostats may "learn" (like my water heater) so I'd read the manual if they are doing something odd...
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Ummm, that's late 1990s internet security. These days bad actors, can and do get inside any network. They've gotten deep into large government financial and private industry.Give me a break. Total and udder BS.
Smart meter networks have no connection to the outside world/internet. They ride on an internal network via encrypted radio waves and a LAN that has no connection to the outside world. They are purposefully not connected in anyway to a WAN on a firewall.
No they cannot easily be hacked from an outside source as there is no connection to an outside source
More false news. Smh
wyliesdiesels
Well-known member
Huh?
The meter network isnt connected to the internet. Guess you didnt read what I said
Comparing that to government systems that are connected to the internet is a flawed comparison.
If you want to read more, the industry term is "air-gapped." One high profile attack you can read about is Stuxnet. That was over a decade ago and a lot has changed since then.
OP
smokey0810
Well-known member
Thankfully no rolling blackouts in our area since we’ve lived here. More so in the Houston area it seems. Different power company and grid issues.
wyliesdiesels
Well-known member
i know what the industry term is.
stuxnet was an inside job and it only targeted computers running siemens PLCs operating centrifuges doing uranium enrichment. hardly a logical comparison... in fact no where near a good comparison....
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Oh man, I'm so lost.....
So smart meters can't be hacked because.....
1. It can only be done as an inside job?
2. Air gapped systems can't be compromised... Or
3. You can only hack Siemens centrifuges?
4. No other air gapped system has ever been remotely compromised
You didn't used to be the CSO for Equifax did you?
If you want to see what your actual energy usage is, sign up for smartmetertexas.com. You'll need your EISD no. and meter no. to sign up. It will give you a dashboard with energy usage daily in 15 min intervals, reports, etc. I've used it since 2021. I used it to see what size generator that I would need to keep the essentials running in an outage.
Smart Meter Texas
SlappyWhite
Well-known member
Lots of misinformed people in this thread.
The "smart" meters allow the power company to remotely read the meters and to also get time of day usage. Now ToD could be a concern for people that use peak power during peak times as they may pay more if ToD billing is implemented. Old dumb meters only give a total between manual readings so are by definition flat rate. The smart meters have been around for well over a decade, it is proven technology not new fangled.....
Smart meters cannot control your home or your usage or your thoughts, there is no mechanism to do so as they are on the entire feed (service) to the house. Other devices installed downstream in the home could but they are specifically controlling appliances or HVAC... Now if you are a meter flipper, well you are scamming the PoCo (theft), the smart meter will tell them. The term "smart" these days freaks people out.
For the OP, it is up to you but see if ToD usage is automatically part of it and what are your peak usage times are. Weigh the $16 extra per month vs ToD and see if you are up or down on the deal.
****
Side bar, some old dumb (analog) meters can be flipped upside down in the meter base (obviously breaking the seal) and they will actually run backwards, when I worked for the PoCo we called them meter flippers. Scammers would watch the readers schedule and flip for one week after they were read and then flip it back, backwards for one week, forward for three means roughly two weeks usage is recorded.... Very illegal, don't do it, repeated broken seals....
The "smart" meters allow the power company to remotely read the meters and to also get time of day usage. Now ToD could be a concern for people that use peak power during peak times as they may pay more if ToD billing is implemented. Old dumb meters only give a total between manual readings so are by definition flat rate. The smart meters have been around for well over a decade, it is proven technology not new fangled.....
Smart meters cannot control your home or your usage or your thoughts, there is no mechanism to do so as they are on the entire feed (service) to the house. Other devices installed downstream in the home could but they are specifically controlling appliances or HVAC... Now if you are a meter flipper, well you are scamming the PoCo (theft), the smart meter will tell them. The term "smart" these days freaks people out.
For the OP, it is up to you but see if ToD usage is automatically part of it and what are your peak usage times are. Weigh the $16 extra per month vs ToD and see if you are up or down on the deal.
****
Side bar, some old dumb (analog) meters can be flipped upside down in the meter base (obviously breaking the seal) and they will actually run backwards, when I worked for the PoCo we called them meter flippers. Scammers would watch the readers schedule and flip for one week after they were read and then flip it back, backwards for one week, forward for three means roughly two weeks usage is recorded.... Very illegal, don't do it, repeated broken seals....
You can turn off the "smart" features on most thermostats. Sometimes they default to the "smart" mode. It can be frustrating.
It targeted Siemens VFD's w/o proper licenses & since it was a rouge State using them they did not have it, & the rest is history.
wyliesdiesels
Well-known member
Huh?
You dont make any sense. youre comparing a purpose built virus with an automated process to a human using an antenna to hack into a smart meter system.
Stuxnet was a purpose built virus designed to only target siemens SCADA systems. It specifically targeted windows machines running the siemens PLC software. the virus in turn manipulated the software to run the centrifuges in a manner that would destroy them.
The virus was introduced onto the Iranian enrichment centers network via USB flash drive NOT the internet which is why i say it was an inside job.
so comparing that to a hacker sitting outside someone's home attempting to get into a smart meter network via wireless is flawed logic. they arent the same method nor are they even the same thing.
hell the virus didnt even cause damage to other siemens customer's equipment. it literally only targeted the iranian equipment. and it was made with nation state support meaning a government. how you compare that to a lone hacker sitting in a car with some wireless equipment trying to get into a smart meter network is beyond me...
wyliesdiesels
Well-known member
PLCs NOT VFDs and the software was acquired legitimately albeit secretly so it was licensed.
"The worm then propagates across the network, scanning for Siemens Step7 software on computers controlling a PLC. In the absence of either criterion, Stuxnet becomes dormant inside the computer. If both the conditions are fulfilled, Stuxnet introduces the infected rootkit onto the PLC and Step7 software, modifying the code and giving unexpected commands to the PLC while returning a loop of normal operation system values back to the users.[12][13]"
"...it is the first discovered malware that spies on and subverts industrial systems,[15] and the first to include a programmable logic controller (PLC) rootkit."
"Stuxnet infects PLCs by subverting the Step-7 software application that is used to reprogram these devices.[20][21]"
Stuxnet - Wikipedia
wyliesdiesels
Well-known member
the method of getting the virus onto the internal network was an inside job since it was spread via USB flash drive. the computer network operating the Siemens PLCs were not connected to the internet.
So how do you think it got there?
the virus also did not target siemens customers other than the Iranians... so it had to specifically be put onto their internal networks.
dave*99
Well-known member
This info is admittedly dated but here goes:
In 2016, I visited an engineering firm that was testing smart meters. Some of those meters had the capability to disconnect the customers service (typically for non payment)
The concern was if a large group of meters were somehow all hacked such that they were to all connect and disconnect customer power in unison...... they could create a large disturbance on the utility power system.
I don't know how the hack would be orchestrated and I'm sure things have changed since then. But this was the threat they were evaluating.
Here is some recent research on how this oscillation could impact the grid. The research is intended foster counter measures for this attack.
today.oregonstate.edu
In 2016, I visited an engineering firm that was testing smart meters. Some of those meters had the capability to disconnect the customers service (typically for non payment)
The concern was if a large group of meters were somehow all hacked such that they were to all connect and disconnect customer power in unison...... they could create a large disturbance on the utility power system.
I don't know how the hack would be orchestrated and I'm sure things have changed since then. But this was the threat they were evaluating.
Here is some recent research on how this oscillation could impact the grid. The research is intended foster counter measures for this attack.
OSU research shows how hackers can target smart meters to destabilize electricity grid
CORVALLIS, Ore. – A power transmission grid can be destabilized by hackers who manipulate smart meters to create an oscillation in electricity demand, researchers in the Oregon State University College of Engineering have shown. Findings were published in IEEE Access. The study is important...
larry4406
Well-known member
My Dominion meter was swapped out to a smart meter about a year ago. No notice. Guy shows up and I happen to be home.
I take pictures.
Now I know they are controlling me and I’ve been infested per this thread. Probably explains why I can’t sleep at night. Meanwhile no change in power bills; they are teasing me to see if I’ve noticed I’m sure and will creep up the bill.
Oh, they say that one of the features is they can turn power off remotely for lack of payment.
Off to Walmart for tinfoil.
I take pictures.
Now I know they are controlling me and I’ve been infested per this thread. Probably explains why I can’t sleep at night. Meanwhile no change in power bills; they are teasing me to see if I’ve noticed I’m sure and will creep up the bill.
Oh, they say that one of the features is they can turn power off remotely for lack of payment.
Off to Walmart for tinfoil.
Off to Walmart for tinfoil.
You think Sam Walton wasn't part of the illuminati?
The smart meters allow the utility a lot of information that they did not previously have. This load data helps with planning their distribution system. As electric cars and charging them at home becomes more prevalent, this will be very important.
It will also allow them to more accurately bill consumers based on kW demand. When they purchase wholesale power, this all comes into play --- kwh sales and kW demand.
It will also allow them to more accurately bill consumers based on kW demand. When they purchase wholesale power, this all comes into play --- kwh sales and kW demand.
PelicanPines
ALLIANCE MEMBER
You're screwed and there is NOT one thing you can do about it. I fought the same battle here in the land of the free (New Jersey) with Atlantic City Electric.
They say they won't screw you but be ready...
niget2002
Well-known member
The POCO would have to have access to your breaker box and install hardware inside the box itself in order to 'control' any part of the power distribution inside your house. The best they can do at the smart meter itself is to turn it off completely.
If they're going to kill power to houses to conserve energy, they're going to do it via a rolling blackout.
If they're going to kill power to houses to conserve energy, they're going to do it via a rolling blackout.
PelicanPines
ALLIANCE MEMBER
Glad you agree with us misinformed people. TOD billing is the only concern I have. TOD billing is actually a huge issue for some of us. It also depends on how they implement it. They control the metrics and there is nothing stopping them from billing their users thru the you know whats. The rest is just "conspiracy theories"
larry4406
Well-known member
Don’t confuse the issue with facts.
7 Things to Know About Your Texas Smart Meter
What is a Smart Meter? Find out here, including what your Texas Smart Meter can do for you, the environment and the electric grid.
everythingenergy.com
That just looks terrible. A dumb, spinning meter, from the middle of the 20th century is what is most needed.7 Things to Know About Your Texas Smart Meter
What is a Smart Meter? Find out here, including what your Texas Smart Meter can do for you, the environment and the electric grid.
I can't tell if you are trying to be obtuse or really are that clueless, but like anything else, a smart meter can be hacked and you better believe if things keep going the way they are, it's just a matter of time. Your assertion that air gapping was an effective means of protection is what I challenged and I guess you want to stick to your guns. I used stuxnet because it's a well know example but there are plenty of others. If I found one of a utility company, you'd say that wasn't the same anyway. I could post one of the dozens of advisories stating not to rely on air gapping, you'd say they were wrong too.
Since this conversation has turned into an argument about the security posture of closed restricted networks I offer this.
I conduct cybersecurity assessments for a living, typically control systems including critical infrastructure are a mess, both government and civilian operated based on my experience. Air gap is the primary means of protecting these systems however it is typically performed poorly with some connections for administrative access, billing information, etc. Systems I have seen properly air gapped were not currently patched and poorly administered from a cybersecurity perspective. Lots of unsupported operating systems, XP for example.
No one on here can speak absolutely about the security of systems they do not directly administer.
Even if a system is properly air gapped rarely are policies fully implemented to verify the integrity of all the systems and software that cross the air gap. Engineers from various vendors plugging in laptops to troubleshoot, perform updates, etc. I'm surprised when organizations have a good handle on this. I would not call STUXNET an inside job which implies malicious intent from an insider, as much as I'd call it a result of an insider threat, which is a just the cost of doing business. You have to protect systems from users and administrators doing daily business, malicious or not they are the human factor. Our Red Team has pretty good luck with phishing emails as an example on IT systems.
The downside of a closed restricted network (CRN) is you don't enjoy the benefits of enterprise security tools to monitor network traffic and host processes as well as automatic antivirus updates without implementing network monitoring and process monitoring software systems inside the CRN, which is quite expensive. Patches and software that cross the gap need integrity verified.
Lastly control system engineers that design and manage operational technology systems as well as other non IT systems are typically focused on availability, confidentiality and integrity take a back seat. Rarely have I seen a robust cybersecurity program applied to control systems.
The usage info my electric meter collects is available on a publicly accessible web page, perhaps there is a data diode between the two systems, or one way wireless, but most likely it's router access lists or a poorly configured, not currently patched firewall. Or a properly configured currently patched firewall that still has unknown vulnerabilities.
I conduct cybersecurity assessments for a living, typically control systems including critical infrastructure are a mess, both government and civilian operated based on my experience. Air gap is the primary means of protecting these systems however it is typically performed poorly with some connections for administrative access, billing information, etc. Systems I have seen properly air gapped were not currently patched and poorly administered from a cybersecurity perspective. Lots of unsupported operating systems, XP for example.
No one on here can speak absolutely about the security of systems they do not directly administer.
Even if a system is properly air gapped rarely are policies fully implemented to verify the integrity of all the systems and software that cross the air gap. Engineers from various vendors plugging in laptops to troubleshoot, perform updates, etc. I'm surprised when organizations have a good handle on this. I would not call STUXNET an inside job which implies malicious intent from an insider, as much as I'd call it a result of an insider threat, which is a just the cost of doing business. You have to protect systems from users and administrators doing daily business, malicious or not they are the human factor. Our Red Team has pretty good luck with phishing emails as an example on IT systems.
The downside of a closed restricted network (CRN) is you don't enjoy the benefits of enterprise security tools to monitor network traffic and host processes as well as automatic antivirus updates without implementing network monitoring and process monitoring software systems inside the CRN, which is quite expensive. Patches and software that cross the gap need integrity verified.
Lastly control system engineers that design and manage operational technology systems as well as other non IT systems are typically focused on availability, confidentiality and integrity take a back seat. Rarely have I seen a robust cybersecurity program applied to control systems.
The usage info my electric meter collects is available on a publicly accessible web page, perhaps there is a data diode between the two systems, or one way wireless, but most likely it's router access lists or a poorly configured, not currently patched firewall. Or a properly configured currently patched firewall that still has unknown vulnerabilities.
Only thing about smart meters is if your PoCo introduces time of use metering your bill is going up, and they get to fire all the meter readers. It's not going control your appliances, cause puppies, & kittens, to be born blind, or curve your spine.
The PoCo's will be able to tell a lot about you, by your gas & electric usage & when it is used, full disclosure, I have smart meters on both.
The PoCo's will be able to tell a lot about you, by your gas & electric usage & when it is used, full disclosure, I have smart meters on both.
wyliesdiesels
Well-known member
the "smart meters" on gas meters arent as sophisticated or detailed as their electric counter parts. they cannot tell how much gas was used at 12pm. all they can do is calculate total therms per day used.Only thing about smart meters is if your PoCo introduces time of use metering your bill is going up, and they get to fire all the meter readers. It's not going control your appliances, cause puppies, & kittens, to be born blind, or curve your spine.
The PoCo's will be able to tell a lot about you, by your gas & electric usage & when it is used, full disclosure, I have smart meters on both.
Guess they will have to decide what is the biggest risk
Disruption from cyber attack or disruption from an overloaded grid
