Show Off Your Antique Ratchet

[Patrick Eubanks]

I posted this over in The Billings & Spencer Patent thread, but I thought I'd post it here for reference:

The 1882 Billings & Spencer Double Action Ratchet Drill showed up today. It does have a 3d position. Loosen, tighten & the 3d position disengages both pawls & it spins freely. It's very heavy & all the teeth are intact & operates perfectly. It cleaned up nice for its age. It's also stamped No. 1 DA. Being able to push the lever & change directions was a monumental improvement on Packers ratchet drill. If your driving (tightening) a reamer drill bit through metal & it catches or sticks, being able to back it out a little would drastically help to start drilling again. I lucked out on this one. It's in great shape.

Oh that’s a beauty

 

[AntiqueBen]

Those of you that know me know I like the unusual. I found a couple of ratchets that caught my eye. The pictures are deceiving because both of these ratchets are about 3ft long. They're either 7/8" or 1" drive. I've never seen these designs before. The design on the handle up by the head & the difference between the screws/bolts holding the face plates on are the only differences I'm seeing. I'm hoping once I get them I can reveal some markings during clean up. I'm anxious to take them apart & see the mechanism. Anyone ever seen anything like these? Possibly Railroad ratchets? Interested to know what you guys think.

 

[AntiqueBen]

Those of you that know me know I like the unusual. I found a couple of ratchets that caught my eye. The pictures are deceiving because both of these ratchets are about 3ft long. They're either 7/8" or 1" drive. I've never seen these designs before. The design on the handle up by the head & the difference between the screws/bolts holding the face plates on are the only differences I'm seeing. I'm hoping once I get them I can reveal some markings during clean up. I'm anxious to take them apart & see the mechanism. Anyone ever seen anything like these? Possibly Railroad ratchets? Interested to know what you guys think.

This is the only marking I can find from the pics I've got. Looks like "1018"?

 

[Mike'smeatshop]

This is the only marking I can find from the pics I've got. Looks like "1018"?

Those are intriguing. I will go down that hole and see what I can find out. Very cool. Looks like RR.

 

[Patrick Eubanks]

Those are intriguing. I will go down that hole and see what I can find out. Very cool. Looks like RR.

It’s a Biggun

 

[AntiqueBen]

It’s a Biggun

Based on the 1" drive, the head of both of these ratchets appear to be 5" in diameter. Pretty good size. Hopefully when I clean them I'll find more markings.

 

[AntiqueBen]

Those are intriguing. I will go down that hole and see what I can find out. Very cool. Looks like RR.

Thanks Mike. Yeah, I think they look RR too. Let me know if you find something.

 

[Patrick Eubanks]

Dang. I bet shipping was cheap

 

[AntiqueBen]

Dang. I bet shipping was cheap

I got a good deal on the ratchets, but you're right, shipping was a killer, even though they're being shipped together.

 

[Oldtuleguy]

That's like rr stuff, or bridge construction or something. Here's a hexall ratchet that looks pretty antique

 

[Patrick Eubanks]

That's like rr stuff, or bridge construction or something. Here's a hexall ratchet that looks pretty antique

Yea that’s an old one. 1917 range I think

 

[AntiqueBen]

That's like rr stuff, or bridge construction or something. Here's a hexall ratchet that looks pretty antique

Here is the patent on your Hexall ratchet. Nice ratchet.

US Patent: 1,224,223 - Ratchet Wrench

US patent 1,224,223 Ratchet Wrench was issued to Reginald F. Sedgley of Philadelphia, PA. It was granted on 05/01/1917. The ratchet wheel has coarse square cornered teeth; the pawl reverses by shifting its tensioning spring. The ratchet head and pawl bearing are riveted

www.datamp.org

 

[AntiqueBen]

I found a clue on the two ratchets I bought. Here is a pic of one of the faceplate screws of another pic I found. It says "Rockford" with what looks like a horseshoe & A logo. I know that Atha Tool Co. had a horseshoe logo with an A inside the horseshoe. I'm not sure if Atha did their logo with the A below the horseshoe? I think there was even a Rockford Tool Company at one point too. Still researching, but maybe some of you might recognize this logo? Anyone seen this logo?

 

[four.cycle]

might be:

Rockford / Rockford Drilling Machine Co., Rockford, IL / est. 1907 / http://vintagemachinery.org/mfgindex/detail.aspx?id=696&tab=4&sort=5&th=false&fl= /

Atha's logo was completely different than that one (see below)

 

[PSCo1867]

I found a clue on the two ratchets I bought. Here is a pic of one of the faceplate screws of another pic I found. It says "Rockford" with what looks like a horseshoe & A logo. I know that Atha Tool Co. had a horseshoe logo with an A inside the horseshoe. I'm not sure if Atha did their logo with the A below the horseshoe? I think there was even a Rockford Tool Company at one point too. Still researching, but maybe some of you might recognize this logo? Anyone seen this logo?

I've seen the Rockford name on many fasteners. Believe Rockford was/is a bolt & fastener manufacturer and those bolts are likely not strictly related to the ratchet manufacturer.

 

[AntiqueBen]

I've seen the Rockford name on many fasteners. Believe Rockford was/is a bolt & fastener manufacturer and those bolts are likely not strictly related to the ratchet manufacturer.

You're right. If the fasteners were removed or switched out, then the ratchet wouldn't be marked, unless it's also marked the same. But I did see that there is the Rockford Bolt & Steel Co that marks their fasteners Rockford. So, hopefully I'll find some other markings when I clean them up.

 

[AntiqueBen]

Alright guys....I thought I would build up some suspense or excitement. I have a ratchet on the way. Yes, I have two 3ft-ers coming that I posted in post #402. But I found another one I couldn't pass up. I have pics, but I'm going to wait & post pics after I get it because I don't know the manufacturer yet. All I'll say at this point is it might be the largest ratchet ever posted on GJ. This bad boy is 6ft!! Yes, 6ft long!! The diameter of the head of the ratchet is 6". I should have it sometime this weekend. I'm anxious to share it with everyone. So, stay tuned....the 6ft ratchet is coming

 

[Patrick Eubanks]

Alright guys....I thought I would build up some suspense or excitement. I have a ratchet on the way. Yes, I have two 3ft-ers coming that I posted in post #402. But I found another one I couldn't pass up. I have pics, but I'm going to wait & post pics after I get it because I don't know the manufacturer yet. All I'll say at this point is it might be the largest ratchet ever posted on GJ. This bad boy is 6ft!! Yes, 6ft long!! The diameter of the head of the ratchet is 6". I should have it sometime this weekend. I'm anxious to share it with everyone. So, stay tuned....the 6ft ratchet is coming

superb

 

[AntiqueBen]

Anyone know where I can find a 1" drive stud for the the big ratchets I have coming?

 

[Cruzan80]

Have you had any luck finding sockets for any of these? I have an old Moss erg that takes 7/8-1" sockets (forget which right now), but haven't had any luck finding things that would go in it.

Sucker is about 3ft long...

 

[AntiqueBen]

Have you had any luck finding sockets for any of these? I have an old Moss erg that takes 7/8-1" sockets (forget which right now), but haven't had any luck finding things that would go in it.

Sucker is about 3ft long...

I don't have any 1" sockets but I have quite a few 3/4" sockets. There are ways to use 3/4" sockets on a 1" drive. I don't think I'm going to invest in 1" sockets, unless I found a deal. It would be a pricy endeavor for sockets I'll probably never use. I might buy one big 1" drive socket just to have on the ratchet.

 

[AntiqueBen]

Have you had any luck finding sockets for any of these? I have an old Moss erg that takes 7/8-1" sockets (forget which right now), but haven't had any luck finding things that would go in it.

Sucker is about 3ft long...

Some of the 1" sockets are insane. Check this one out. You could eat a bowl of cereal out of this thing.

 

[Cruzan80]

Yeah, looking for earlier than that. From the one catalog listing I found, looks like were pressed steel, same as the 1/2" Dr versions.

 

[AntiqueBen]

Yeah, looking for earlier than that. From the one catalog listing I found, looks like were pressed steel, same as the 1/2" Dr versions.

I'm sure there probably was 1" drive pressed steel sockets. That's one thing I've never looked into.

 

[Cruzan80]

Yeah, kind of like you said. I just want one or a few to display with it, so it can show the scale.

 

[four.cycle]

Anyone know where I can find a 1" drive stud for the the big ratchets I have coming?

My first guess would be KC Tool in Kansas City, but before I looked at their website, I'd pick up the phone and call Wright Tool on their 800 line.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Deleted.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Anyone know where I can find a 1" drive stud for the the big ratchets I have coming?

Why?

 

[Private Lugnutz]

I have an old Mossberg that takes 7/8-1" sockets (forget which right now), but haven't had any luck finding things that would go in it.

Please post a photo. If you're sure the opening is not 11/16" (the opening size for driving the pressed steel sockets from the outside and the drive tools from the inside), it could be 7/8-inch drive, and very rare, but probably not for the reasons you think. They made these very late (1928-1929), just before the merger with APCO, when they were desperately trying to catch up to Blackhawk and Snap-on. They started making sets based on hot-forged cold-broached steel sockets, in 1/2-drive, and then briefly tried to move up to 7/8-drive, just before they gave up. But they did not update the ratchet designs. The ratchets still looked like the older rats for the pressed steel sockets. Which is deceiving. I have a 1/2-drive set from this era, as does @Old Radar. Click here to enter the 'Latest production' Mossberg thread at best point for this subject and then read through to the end. I have never seen a 7/8-drive ratchet from this era. Just an ad.

From the one catalog listing I found, looks like were pressed steel, same as the 1/2" Dr versions.

Please post the reference. I've never heard of Mossberg pressed steel sockets in any other drive size. I'm just speculating here, but it's possible you were looking at their "Heavy Duty" socket line. They are black rust-proofed and forged in a shape that makes it look like they have a male drive tang, but they are female sockets, to be driven with a male drive stud from the inside. Click here and enter the 'Latest production' Mossberg thread at best point for this subject. Again, they apparently made a 7/8-drive version of these, too, but, again, I have only ever seen the ad.

 

[AntiqueBen]

Why?

I will never actually use these big ratchets I have coming, but I thought I'd like to at least be able to put a socket on the biggest one for display. Plus it's always easier to turn the mechanism with a socket attached.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

I will never actually use these big ratchets I have coming, but I thought I'd like to at least be able to put a socket on the biggest one for display.

How old do you think those ratchets are?

 

[AntiqueBen]

How old do you think those ratchets are?

I posted pics in post #402. I'm going to guess 1920-1930. Just a guess. Could be earlier, could be later. I've never seen ratchets like these before, so I'm in uncharted territory. They are going to show up today, so I should be able to post an update later this evening.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

I'm going to guess 1920-1930.

I was thinking they were older. Pre-socketry, put it that way.

They look like classic constructor or erector ratchets to me, used directly on nuts and bolts on buildings, bridges, tunnels, structural steel towers, and railroad tracks. That's what I thought you thought they were when you mentioned "railroad." Big ratchets were used without sockets in early manufacturing, too, such as lashing together old wooden pipe systems, for example. As a fan of Lowell you're probably aware that they were making reversible ratchets with 3/4", 7/8" and 1" openings well into the 1950s that were never intended for sockets. Those were also constructor or erector ratchets, made for turning big nuts and bolts. Lowell basically made a ratchet for every size nut and bolt there was.

I have a very early (ca. 1919) 1-inch drive ratchet set with 1-inch drive sockets from Chicago Hardware and Distribution, linked here, but they're malleable iron, hex drive, and very uncommon. I would call them exotic precursors. And even those ratchets were primarily marketed by CH&D for track bolts and screw spikes without the sockets. Socketry for a ratchet that size was still exotic even then. We have seen the Greene Tweed No. 0 “Favorite” ratchet and male drive tang sockets, but they’re 1/2-drive.

I am not aware of ANY 1-inch drive malleable iron or pressed steel sockets as common production and use before that.

While various mfgrs explored various drive sizes, i.e., 7/16, 5/8, etc, the first socket wrenches made from machined or hot forged steel and meant to be turned with ratchets were 1/2-drive, and the first real step up from that was Blackhawk with 3/4-drive. When others followed suit, industry went even bigger. I'm not sure when the majority were making 3/4 and 1-inch drive as readily as 1/2-inch drive, but it was well after 1920, maybe even after 1930, and well after big *** constructor/erector ratchets made to slip directly over nuts and bolts.

I could be wrong. When you get them, you should inspect the opening for signs of some kind of mechanism for retaining sockets.

I will add that OTC and Truth made ratchets that kinda sorta looked like that - a round head that slipped over or screwed on a handle. But they would be marked.

 

[AntiqueBen]

I was thinking they were older. Pre-socketry, put it that way.

They look like classic constructor or erector ratchets to me, used directly on nuts and bolts on buildings, bridges, tunnels, structural steel towers, and railroad tracks. That's what I thought you thought they were when you mentioned "railroad." Big ratchets were used without sockets in early manufacturing, too, such as lashing together old wooden pipe systems, for example. As a fan of Lowell you're probably aware that they were making reversible ratchets with 3/4", 7/8" and 1" openings well into the 1950s that were never intended for sockets. Those were also constructor or erector ratchets, made for turning big nuts and bolts. Lowell basically made a ratchet for every size nut and bolt there was.

I have a very early (ca. 1919) 1-inch drive ratchet set with 1-inch drive sockets from Chicago Hardware and Distribution, linked here, but they're malleable iron, hex drive, and very uncommon. I would call them exotic precursors. And even those ratchets were primarily marketed by CH&D for track bolts and screw spikes without the sockets. Socketry for a ratchet that size was still exotic even then. We have seen the Greene Tweed No. 0 “Favorite” ratchet and male drive tang sockets, but they’re 1/2-drive.

I am not aware of ANY 1-inch drive malleable iron or pressed steel sockets as common production and use before that.

While various mfgrs explored various drive sizes, i.e., 7/16, 5/8, etc, the first socket wrenches made from machined or hot forged steel and meant to be turned with ratchets were 1/2-drive, and the first real step up from that was Blackhawk with 3/4-drive. When others followed suit, industry went even bigger. I'm not sure when the majority were making 3/4 and 1-inch drive as readily as 1/2-inch drive, but it was well after 1919-1920, and well after big *** constructor/erector ratchets made to slip directly over nuts and bolts.

I could be wrong. When you get them, you should inspect the opening for signs of some kind of mechanism for retaining sockets.

I will add that OTC and Truth made ratchets that kinda sorta looked like that - a round head that slipped over or screwed on a handle. But they would be marked.

Thanks for the insight. I would agree these look like they were meant to be put directly on the fasteners rather than used with sockets. Yes, like you, I'm a big Lowell fan. So I'm always on the lookout for oversized rats. It will be interesting to see what markings can be revealed at clean up later today. I can faintly see the word "ON" on one side of the faceplate. Could it have the typical "On" "Off" for tighten & loosen. I doubt it's the last letters of Snap on. I don't believe they made ratchets that looked like that. We'll know more soon.
The UPS truck is around the corner....

 

[Cruzan80]

Please post a photo. If you're sure the opening is not 11/16" (the opening size for driving the pressed steel sockets from the outside and the drive tools from the inside), it could be 7/8-inch drive, and very rare, but probably not for the reasons you think. They made these very late (1928-1929), just before the merger with APCO, when they were desperately trying to catch up to Blackhawk and Snap-on. They started making sets based on hot-forged cold-broached steel sockets, in 1/2-drive, and then briefly tried to move up to 7/8-drive, just before they gave up. But they did not update the ratchet designs. The ratchets still looked like the older rats for the pressed steel sockets. Which is deceiving. I have a 1/2-drive set from this era, as does @Old Radar. Click here to enter the 'Latest production' Mossberg thread at best point for this subject and then read through to the end. I have never seen a 7/8-drive ratchet from this era. Just an ad.

Please post the reference. I've never heard of Mossberg pressed steel sockets in any other drive size. I'm just speculating here, but it's possible you were looking at their "Heavy Duty" socket line. They are black rust-proofed and forged in a shape that makes it look like they have a male drive tang, but they are female sockets, to be driven with a male drive stud from the inside. Click here and enter the 'Latest production' Mossberg thread at best point for this subject. Again, they apparently made a 7/8-drive version of these, too, but, again, I have only ever seen the ad.

Lugz, I have posted it before, somewhere. I know it isn't a 11/16 opening, as I have multiples of those. It may be that it was their "Heavy Duty" line, and I am mis-remembering the details. Will see if I can find my old posts, and if not, will put up a pic or two.

 

[AntiqueBen]

The 3ft ratchets finally showed up. They're actually 33" OAL. They are monsters. Here are a few pics before I started clean up. I'll post more pics once they're clean or if I find any markings.

 

[AntiqueBen]

Ok guys, I'm finding some markings. On one side is marked "1018" & the other side is stamped with some kind of "M" logo. Could this be Moore Drop Forge? Any ideas on the M??

 

[Patrick Eubanks]

I posted pics in post #402. I'm going to guess 1920-1930. Just a guess. Could be earlier, could be later. I've never seen ratchets like these before, so I'm in uncharted territory. They are going to show up today, so I should be able to post an update later this evening.

I’m betting your off by 50 years or so. I’m anxiously watching

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Could this be Moore Drop Forge? Any ideas on the M??

No clue, but that's not MDF.

Lugz, I have posted it before, somewhere. I know it isn't a 11/16 opening, as I have multiples of those. It may be that it was their "Heavy Duty" line, and I am mis-remembering the details. Will see if I can find my old posts, and if not, will put up a pic or two.

I found the entire conversation - from back in 2021! - of us talking about it before! LOL. Including a pic of your ratchet. And I found a couple additional catalog excerpts. I am moving this to the Mossberg thread, though. I will tag you there.

 

[AntiqueBen]

I've taken them as far as I'm going to go as far as cleaning them. I still want them to look their age. The only marks or stamps I've found so far is the "1018" & the "M" logo. They actually cleaned up nice. They are both a 20 tooth mechanism. The mechanism is simple but genius at the same time. The gear is huge. Below are some after clean up pics. Like to hear any thoughts