Why does Snap-On continuously make people rage?

[dchawk81]

Snap On tools are significantly harder and tighter fitting than anything HF sells. That’s a fact. You may never need that additional capability because of what you are working on, where you live etc.

But there may well come a day when your tools let you down and you CAN’T do what your lead mechanic can. I’d be surprised if that hasn’t already happened.

I’ve had that experience. Your lead mechanic may have had that experience. So what you may hear as hate for HF, could just be his way of sharing his experience.


Please keep in mind, the statements above have this air of superiority. How smart were you and your colleague to save your money. The stupid old fashioned lead wasted his money, brain washed by the snap on truck’s siren song. You are one of those folks I mentioned earlier who discovered the magical tool store.

When your Pittsburgh open end wrench spreads, and you need to borrow the lead’s FD+, how will that be? Will he “I told ya so” and be an elitist ***?

You can’t fight and win against physics, and the nut ABSOLUTELY cares what brand wrench turns it. If you guys haven’t learned that here, I’m not sure what you’ve been reading on GJ.

My kids are in their 20s. I tell them things, give them advice as Dads do. They NEVER take my advice. They are committed to learning everything the hard way. It’s tough to watch. And like all Dads, I’m always right. But that brings me no joy, and they seem ever more indignant as whatever I predict comes to pass. HF wrench sets (for example) feel that way to me. You will regret that purchase sooner or later. You can’t win against physics. Just like the mechanic named John did.

That's odd because I've never had a nut scream at me "no no no not that wrench!"

 

[2ndGearRubber]

Snap On tools are significantly harder and tighter fitting than anything HF sells. That’s a fact. You may never need that additional capability because of what you are working on, where you live etc.

But there may well come a day when your tools let you down and you CAN’T do what your lead mechanic can. I’d be surprised if that hasn’t already happened.

I’ve had that experience. Your lead mechanic may have had that experience. So what you may hear as hate for HF, could just be his way of sharing his experience.


Please keep in mind, the statements above have this air of superiority. How smart were you and your colleague to save your money. The stupid old fashioned lead wasted his money, brain washed by the snap on truck’s siren song. You are one of those folks I mentioned earlier who discovered the magical tool store.

When your Pittsburgh open end wrench spreads, and you need to borrow the lead’s FD+, how will that be? Will he “I told ya so” and be an elitist ***?

You can’t fight and win against physics, and the nut ABSOLUTELY cares what brand wrench turns it. If you guys haven’t learned that here, I’m not sure what you’ve been reading on GJ.

My kids are in their 20s. I tell them things, give them advice as Dads do. They NEVER take my advice. They are committed to learning everything the hard way. It’s tough to watch. And like all Dads, I’m always right. But that brings me no joy, and they seem ever more indignant as whatever I predict comes to pass. HF wrench sets (for example) feel that way to me. You will regret that purchase sooner or later. You can’t win against physics. Just like the mechanic named John did.

The fastener certainly knows what brand is turning it.

You don't always need the best, it's a certain % of fasteners. Typically the formula comes down to, the more fasteners you see, the more of these problem child ones you'll see. Then one reacts to that by either suffering and taking more time, or chasing the marginal increase in performance of a better tool.

Koken Zeal, Flank drive Xtra, Matco Non-slip impacts - all these come to mind.

I don't get paid to drill out, extract, weld heads on broken studs, none of that. It's a flat pay, good or bad, hope you don't have too much problem. So if I need to drill/helicoil every single manifold bolt that pays $0.00 extra versus them all coming out cleanly. When you start playing for keeps, even dropping your problem fastener rate by a couple % adds up. Plus the blood pressure factor. You'll always lose some, and win some, but I chose to stack the deck as much as possible in my favor and count the cards.

Now, this begins to devolve and we ask where does one begin/stop this process? I'd tell anyone who says the fastener can't tell, buy a set of Koken Zeal sockets. Relatively cheap, nice low profile, and an excellent fit, extremely tight. When the fastener on that exhaust stud was a 17mm, and I have it cherry red hammering a 13mm on, there's a difference.

That's odd because I've never had a nut scream at me "no no no not that wrench!"

Have you never had a nut you couldn't remove? That's how they talk. Marginal increase in performance means a higher % removed. Some will always need cut/drilled/welded off.

 

[dchawk81]

The fastener certainly knows what brand is turning it.

You don't always need the best, it's a certain % of fasteners. Typically the formula comes down to, the more fasteners you see, the more of these problem child ones you'll see. Then one reacts to that by either suffering and taking more time, or chasing the marginal increase in performance of a better tool.

Koken Zeal, Flank drive Xtra, Matco Non-slip impacts - all these come to mind.

I don't get paid to drill out, extract, weld heads on broken studs, none of that. It's a flat pay, good or bad, hope you don't have too much problem. So if I need to drill/helicoil every single manifold bolt that pays $0.00 extra versus them all coming out cleanly. When you start playing for keeps, even dropping your problem fastener rate by a couple % adds up. Plus the blood pressure factor. You'll always lose some, and win some, but I chose to stack the deck as much as possible in my favor and count the cards.

Now, this begins to devolve and we ask where does one begin/stop this process? I'd tell anyone who says the fastener can't tell, buy a set of Koken Zeal sockets. Relatively cheap, nice low profile, and an excellent fit, extremely tight. When the fastener on that exhaust stud was a 17mm, and I have it cherry red hammering a 13mm on, there's a difference.




Have you never had a nut you couldn't remove? That's how they talk. Marginal increase in performance means a higher % removed. Some will always need cut/drilled/welded off.

That's still not saying it cares what BRAND is used.

If it's rusty pus that needs other methods I'll go so far as to say it's not really a nut anymore.

Does a nut you're cutting off care what brand your torch is?

 

[JeepYJ]

When the fastener on that exhaust stud was a 17mm, and I have it cherry red hammering a 13mm on, there's a difference.

Youre using a Koken socket to hammer onto a nearly liquid fastener?

 

[2ndGearRubber]

That's still not saying it cares what BRAND is used.

If it's rusty pus that needs other methods I'll go so far as to say it's not really a nut anymore.

Does a nut you're cutting off care what brand your torch is?

Depends, brand is typically related to some degree of performance.

I'm not in the rustiest place in the US, but I deal with lots of undersized and messed up hardware.

Youre using a Koken socket to hammer onto a nearly liquid fastener?

Yup. I do it with snap on, sunex, whoever. Why wouldn't you? If that's the tool that can do the job, it does the job. I'd prefer to make love to it, but if I can get that nearly liquid fastener off I can save that stud. That stud is stainless, run into stainless, 150,000 miles of heat cycles and a thin flange rotted away. A California emissions complaint converter (so this Cali-emissions car keeps the light off) is $1500. Plus the labor, which involves removing the alternator, and the exhaust studs, and a $300 AFR sensor. You can do whatever you like, I'm saving that converter.


EDIT: FWIW my choice of exhaust socket is typically FDX snap on semi-deeps these days. But I have zero qualms beating an 8mm 1/4 drive koken onto what was a 10mm originally. I certainly do hammer Koken sockets onto glowing fasteners, doesn't even raise an eyebrow.

 

[Mb4]

If I'm repairing my own **** (and seemingly half of everybody else's I know), does that make me a "hobbyist"?

Hobbyist/DIYer as in not a professional? Absolutely you are, and that’s not said in any disrespectful way at all. Being a DIYer doesn’t mean you do poor work. But we’re lying to ourselves if we refuse to admit that “cheap” often isn’t, in a professional or industrial setting. I can lap and scrape my own surface plates from scrap iron, too. But I’m going to use a calibrated straight edge. The money I save isn’t worth the time I’d lose in making those plates (not a perfect comparison, because precision and repeatability isn’t cheap).

Nobody is begrudging you your choice of tools or telling you to do anything different. You should use whatever works for you and you enjoy.

 

[AEAdam]

That's odd because I've never had a nut scream at me "no no no not that wrench!"

Then you’re not listening carefully. Seriously, hardware will communicate with you if you listen.

I don’t know how much work you do on your truck. I know nothing about them. My guess is, some of that hardware is expensive, needs to be maintained.

Maybe from the time Snap On patented flank drive, maybe before, people started thinking about and analyzing how and specifically where a socket or wrench contacts a fastener. Because the moment arm to the center of rotation of the fastener is so small, a tiny difference in where the tool contacts the bolt matters…a lot.

The discussions we have here usually surround whether we care or not. Whether we encounter situations where it matters. But, yes the bolt cares.

 

[Boogerman]

It's always the absolutes, in light of clear evidence that they're not true that entrench the factions.

"If it's not Snap-On, it's **** and won't work".
"The nut doesn't care what brand, HF has always worked as well or better than the good stuff".
"Manufacturing and materials have gotten so much better, it doesn't matter which factory or country of origin, it's all equally good".
"Every tech that walks on the truck is in debt just for nothing, and shorting their family of much needed money".
"If you buy a cheap set now, you'll upgrade a couple of times and end up with the good stuff eventually, and pay way more in the long run, even if you're just an occasional hobby mechanic".


When the reality is more like:

"Snap-On may be only 10% better, but for critical applications, in some tools, it's worth the several times more price".
"The best brands might not have the best tools across the board, but overall the consistency is worth not shopping around".
"It's worth it to me to use lower cost tools, because I don't have the money, and the small amount of extra time and effort I have to spend is just a reality of my economic situation".
"I enjoy shopping around and comparing tools, so the time I spent putting together a set of good tools from dozens of different less expensive brands is hobby time, and doesn't count in the repair time"
"I know there's some jobs where more expensive tools work better, but I'd rather save the money and spend more time and effort"
"My HF stuff isn't the quality of Koken, Snap-on, Proto, Wright and other industrial stuff, but it is what I have and can afford".
"It's expensive to buy stuff from the tool truck, but the time I save in not going to the store or comparison shopping online is made up by the extra work I get done and paid for".
"I like nicer stuff, and can afford it so I buy more expensive things than I absolutely could get by with".
"I'm cheap, so I buy the lowest price thing that will get the job done. My kids will enjoy the money I die with".
"I like to come on garage journal and bait the other participants".

 

[dchawk81]

Then you’re not listening carefully. Seriously, hardware will communicate with you if you listen.

I don’t know how much work you do on your truck. I know nothing about them. My guess is, some of that hardware is expensive, needs to be maintained.

Maybe from the time Snap On patented flank drive, maybe before, people started thinking about and analyzing how and specifically where a socket or wrench contacts a fastener. Because the moment arm to the center of rotation of the fastener is so small, a tiny difference in where the tool contacts the bolt matters…a lot.

The discussions we have here usually surround whether we care or not. Whether we encounter situations where it matters. But, yes the bolt cares.

The bolt doesn't have emotions. It's not sentient. It cannot care.

 

[dchawk81]

Then you’re not listening carefully. Seriously, hardware will communicate with you if you listen.

I don’t know how much work you do on your truck. I know nothing about them. My guess is, some of that hardware is expensive, needs to be maintained.

Maybe from the time Snap On patented flank drive, maybe before, people started thinking about and analyzing how and specifically where a socket or wrench contacts a fastener. Because the moment arm to the center of rotation of the fastener is so small, a tiny difference in where the tool contacts the bolt matters…a lot.

The discussions we have here usually surround whether we care or not. Whether we encounter situations where it matters. But, yes the bolt cares.

Nuts and bolts are not capable of caring whether you remove them easily or with great difficulty. Whether you round them off, cut them off, burn them off, or give up completely. Therefore they cannot care what brand tools you use.

 

[2ndGearRubber]

Hobbyist/DIYer as in not a professional? Absolutely you are, and that’s not said in any disrespectful way at all. Being a DIYer doesn’t mean you do poor work. But we’re lying to ourselves if we refuse to admit that “cheap” often isn’t, in a professional or industrial setting. I can lap and scrape my own surface plates from scrap iron, too. But I’m going to use a calibrated straight edge. The money I save isn’t worth the time I’d lose in making those plates (not a perfect comparison, because precision and repeatability isn’t cheap).

Nobody is begrudging you your choice of tools or telling you to do anything different. You should use whatever works for you and you enjoy.

I would argue the "non pro" or whatever term has an easier time doing top quality work. No outside pressure to do a ****** job from everyone else around them. They are the single party responsible for parts quality, repair quality, inspection, etc.

The non-pro can do a top notch job, use top quality parts, and more easily pivot mid repair. If I find a coolant pipe rotted through and literally seeping liquid coolant under an intake manifold, I am considered a scammer and a thief by the customer, and PITA by the front desk who has to deal with this customer. Everyone else except me wants to put the intake back on, and let that pipe blow 2 weeks later and pay 2x labor. Or more often try to **** me into replacing it all for free "since I broke it".

The bolt doesn't have emotions. It's not sentient. It cannot care.

Sigh, it's a metaphor.

If your tekton wrench rounds it, and the proto wrench doesn't round an identical bolt, the "fastener cares". Results are different based on tool used.

Before 1/2 sized/zeal/fdx/non-slip stuff existed, you never got out 3 different identically marked 14mm sockets to pick the one that fit the best on this rotted bolt? Or hammered a 13mm on? Those bolts "cared" about what was used to remove them

 

[dchawk81]

I would argue the "non pro" or whatever term has an easier time doing top quality work. No outside pressure to do a ****** job from everyone else around them. They are the single party responsible for parts quality, repair quality, inspection, etc.

The non-pro can do a top notch job, use top quality parts, and more easily pivot mid repair. If I find a coolant pipe rotted through and literally seeping liquid coolant under an intake manifold, I am considered a scammer and a thief by the customer, and PITA by the front desk who has to deal with this customer. Everyone else except me wants to put the intake back on, and let that pipe blow 2 weeks later and pay 2x labor. Or more often try to **** me into replacing it all for free "since I broke it".



Sigh, it's a metaphor.

If your tekton wrench rounds it, and the proto wrench doesn't round an identical bolt, the "fastener cares". Results are different based on tool used.

Before 1/2 sized/zeal/fdx/non-slip stuff existed, you never got out 3 different identically marked 14mm sockets to pick the one that fit the best on this rotted bolt? Or hammered a 13mm on? Those bolts "cared" about what was used to remove them

The fastener doesn't "care" that it was a Tekton that didn't work and a Proto that did. It only "cares" that the better fitting wrench worked and the sloppy one did not.

Fasteners have their own tolerances in manufacturing where the same brand wrench can provide different results on different fasteners.

 

[dchawk81]

BTW that's actually YOU caring what brand wrench is used to get the fastener off because the fastener doesn't GAF whether it's removed or not. You do. You're the one working on it.

 

[AEAdam]

The fastener doesn't "care" that it was a Tekton that didn't work and a Proto that did. It only "cares" that the better fitting wrench worked and the sloppy one did not.

Fasteners have their own tolerances in manufacturing where the same brand wrench can provide different results on different fasteners.

Don’t be argumentative for the sake of it, I think you got my point.

Heres a better argument for you: beneath a certain threshold, the fastener doesn’t know the difference what turned it. It just “felt” a torque. The problem is, that “certain threshold” is lower than one might think.

So you are right in a way. Just don’t miss the point. The closer you get to that threshold, the more dramatic the effect and difference between brands will be.

 

[dchawk81]

Don’t be argumentative for the sake of it, I think you got my point.

Heres a better argument for you: beneath a certain threshold, the fastener doesn’t know the difference what turned it. It just “felt” a torque. The problem is, that “certain threshold” is lower than one might think.

So you are right in a way. Just don’t miss the point. The closer you get to that threshold, the more dramatic the effect and difference between brands will be.

Yes I have different wrenches that fit differently on different fasteners.

It's not really the brand. Is a particular wrench on a particular fastener.

Fastener doesn't care or feel anything.

 

[liliysdad]

Pedantic, I believe, is the operative word here...

 

[AEAdam]

Fastener doesn't care or feel anything.

Agree “care” is the wrong word, “feel” may be the right word. The fastener absolutly feels, senses, responds, reacts. Fasteners feel not only the tool but the user. How torque ramps up and releases, whether I hit the wrench with a hammer…

If anyone has questions, please ask. Sorry if we fell down a rabbit hole.

 

[dchawk81]

Agree “care” is the wrong word, “feel” may be the right word. The fastener absolutly feels, senses, responds, reacts. Fasteners feel not only the tool but the user. How torque ramps up and releases, whether I hit the wrench with a hammer…

If anyone has questions, please ask. Sorry if we fell down a rabbit hole.

I don't like making inanimate objects out to be sentient beings. But I'll agree not all tools work the same.

 

[dchawk81]

Cars don't have souls either.

 

[AEAdam]

I don't like making inanimate objects out to be sentient beings. But I'll agree not all tools work the same.

off topic, but hope this is of interest. Read an article in a car magazine that argued if cars are not sentient now they will be soon. They have a sense of self, a history, have language, can communicate, respond to us. They can interact each other (adaptive cruise, auto braking) without us.

 

[Debcrow]

Really insightful comments guys. Interesting. Agree, the comments I’ve seen aren’t about tools per se.

I think the desire to belong has a lot to do with the social dynamic on the internet. American men don’t really socialize with each other like they used to. Bowling leagues are gone, they don’t meet for poker night. Even the weekly pub night, doesn’t seem to be a thing anymore. Church groups, softball, other social group memberships are all down. They (we) do the same pathetic “social media stuff” we don’t want our kids doing.

I tend to agree somewhat. Face to face interaction does not exist as much as it did before. (Hell, I quit my drinking team because they had a bowling problem
On the flip side there is a lot more interaction because anybody can state their opinion to anybody in the world because of social media. On the flip side of that how do you know the persons experience on the subject in social media. They can make all sorts of biased opinions based on little personal experience. This was also true in face to face if you did not know the persons background.
This long thread and many others on ANY subject shops the depth of human feelings, experience and emotions.

I am of the opinion if I have a tool and it works that's fine. I never look at the brand when I pick one up.
Snap-on wrenches fit tighter on bolts. Yes and no. Have you seen the poor quality control of fasteners lately?
HF is the same quality and a lot cheaper. Yes and no. Every situation is different.

Just my 2 pesos worth...

 

[2ndGearRubber]

The fastener doesn't "care" that it was a Tekton that didn't work and a Proto that did. It only "cares" that the better fitting wrench worked and the sloppy one did not.

Fasteners have their own tolerances in manufacturing where the same brand wrench can provide different results on different fasteners.

Typically, not always, but typically better performing tools are considered better quality. You can get sort of hairy here with non-standard designs, but just picking on "regular" style tools without wild offset geometry.

I'm not making a brand argument, the fastener doesn't "know" it was a proto and chose to release easier because it like proto. My argument is that something like Proto will typically have better tolerances and geometry compared to other brands, and given a fixed number of fasteners in a variety of conditions will remove more all else equal than a lower performing tool. Given 10,000 fasteners beginning at a perfect center tolerance bolt and degrading into a complete circle with no chance of removal, a center tolerance Wright wrench or whoever is considered top quality will make it out with a high % of removed fasteners. Higher as a percentage, than a cheaper brand. However this isn't a straight [$=additional fasteners] conversion factor of 1/1.


The result of this, is most brands will remove X fasteners. Higher quality tools have better heat treat, better steel/alloy, better tolerance design and hold. As price climbs another line climbs at a lower rate where more $$$ should equal more fasteners removed. The biggest gap is at the bottom. The blank branded wrench that says "drop forge china" may cost $1, and stepping up to a $5 is a much bigger increase in performance than the $25 wrench despite the cost being multiplied by a factor of 5 both times.


If price is y=X, increased performance is more like y= (squareroot)X

Agree “care” is the wrong word, “feel” may be the right word. The fastener absolutly feels, senses, responds, reacts. Fasteners feel not only the tool but the user. How torque ramps up and releases, whether I hit the wrench with a hammer…

If anyone has questions, please ask. Sorry if we fell down a rabbit hole.

Imagine a fastener, flush with optimism, only to find it's being installed into a Hyundai. While it's batch-mates go on to a Toyota. That bolt felt pain.

Cars don't have souls either.

I'd agree, but I still feel some mechanical empathy. It saddens me to see a neglected vehicle or object. It had more to give, and was squandered.

 

[JeepYJ]

Yup. I do it with snap on, sunex, whoever. Why wouldn't you?

When I was turning wrenches I had some old sockets of various makes that I used for the near liquid nuts and bolts. At that point the fit and tolerances make zero difference, you’re literally forging the fastener to fit whatever the hell you’re hammering on it. You could hammer a 8 point Craftsman socket on there and it will fit. After a few white hot bolts the socket usually looks a little rough and doesn’t fit standard sized fasteners as well as before.

 

[JeepYJ]

Imagine a fastener, flush with optimism, only to find it's being installed into a Hyundai. While it's batch-mates go on to a Toyota. That bolt felt pain.

That would never happen, Toyota using subpar fasteners. Maybe into a Honda.

 

[Kaervak]

Snap On tools are significantly harder and tighter fitting than anything HF sells. That’s a fact. You may never need that additional capability because of what you are working on, where you live etc.

But there may well come a day when your tools let you down and you CAN’T do what your lead mechanic can. I’d be surprised if that hasn’t already happened.

I’ve had that experience. Your lead mechanic may have had that experience. So what you may hear as hate for HF, could just be his way of sharing his experience.


Please keep in mind, the statements above have this air of superiority. How smart were you and your colleague to save your money. The stupid old fashioned lead wasted his money, brain washed by the snap on truck’s siren song. You are one of those folks I mentioned earlier who discovered the magical tool store.

When your Pittsburgh open end wrench spreads, and you need to borrow the lead’s FD+, how will that be? Will he “I told ya so” and be an elitist ***?

You can’t fight and win against physics, and the nut ABSOLUTELY cares what brand wrench turns it. If you guys haven’t learned that here, I’m not sure what you’ve been reading on GJ.

My kids are in their 20s. I tell them things, give them advice as Dads do. They NEVER take my advice. They are committed to learning everything the hard way. It’s tough to watch. And like all Dads, I’m always right. But that brings me no joy, and they seem ever more indignant as whatever I predict comes to pass. HF wrench sets (for example) feel that way to me. You will regret that purchase sooner or later. You can’t win against physics. Just like the mechanic named John did.

I apologize, I need to clarify, I bought the HF tools for one specific reason. To see how well they hold up/failure points in a fleet service application. In the areas I had concerns about HFs ability to perform, they were sidelined for known better quality tools I already own. You mentioned open ended wrenches and the Quinn brand wrenches that came in the set were replaced with a set of USAG 285x wrenches I have because of that exact concern from past experience and so far, they were the only thing I swapped out. Nothing has let me down or failed to get the job done and if/when that happens, that tool will be replaced with a better one and I'm not going to be bothered by it. I've had that happen before and it will happen again, just how it is, there isn't a single tool brand where everything single thing they make is the 100% perfect tool for the job. I'm sure the Quinn brand wrenches would work well enough and I do have them on hand to use as beater wrenches to destroy should the need arise. I'm not about to round a fastener using the last resort open end of a wrench when its the only thing I can get on it, learned that lesson years ago working on my own vehicles.


The lead mechanic hates HF for the sake of hating HF. He was looking at the Icon pocket knife the other mechanic has, said it was a really nice knife, flipped it over and saw the Icon name on it and then immediately said it was a *************. Never used it, just immediately dismissed it because of the name on it. That's just how he is, if its not Snap-On, its garbage. I'm genuinely surprised he has Milwaukee power tools instead of their Snap-On equivalents.


The "lesser" brands I was referring to are in my home box and are SK, Craftsman, Proto, Armstrong, MAC, Matco, Bonney, Williams, Wright, Channellock, Mayhew, Wilde, Lang, Astro, Vaughn & Nupla among others I can't remember at the moment and there isn't a single HF tool in any box at home (two HF composite ratchets in my junkyard bag and they are quite nice actually). All of those brands are quality, well made tools that perform exceptionally well and have proven themselves as such by being used by thousands of people in thousands of applications for years without issue. They weren't cheap either, yet there are some people that will immediately dismiss those brands because they aren't Snap-On which makes no sense to me. No one brand of tool does everything perfectly, some have better options than others, some worse. I don't care what brand is stamped into the tool, if it's the best for the job, that's all that matters. If that happens to be a HF tool or Snap-On tool, so be it, I'll buy it and use it and not care about the name on it.


As I said before I went the HF route for my fleet service tools as an experiment as I don't have a single HF tool in any toolbox I have at home (except the JY bag) and I wanted to see how well they hold up. I don't remember the cost of the HF tools I have at work, but lets say it's $1500 for the hand tools so far. My home tools (absolutely everything include air and power), probably $40,000, maybe less, maybe more, don't really know or care. I'm not opposed to spending money on quality tools and I don't care if someone wants to go $100k in on Snap-On and only Snap-On, your money, spend it how you want. I'm gonna do things differently, no brand allegiance, just whatever works the best for me. Now, am I pissed off or upset that these cheap HF tools are, SO FAR, working just as well as the expensive tools I have? Nope, not in the least, I'm pleasantly surprised actually. Does that equate HF to Snap-On? Nope, not at all. I'm sure there will be failures of the HF stuff I have, anything can break/fail, just how it is. It will be replaced and I'll get back to work. I never downplayed the quality of Snap-On, nor was I equating HF as the same quality as Snap-On or trying to come off as superior in any way. Just stated that the HF tools have, SO FAR, gotten the job done just the same.


I have nothing against Snap-On tools, I own Snap-On tools and quite like the ones that I do have. I just said that they're a bit too expensive (sockets) to justify the cost when "lesser" brands are available. The torx/hex are the exceptions I was talking about though, the Snap-On ones are fantastic and I'm damn glad I own them versus others. Some people just have a brand allegiance and will never go outside of that brand regardless of how good/bad it may be and that's a shame as there are so many good tools out there. Why limit yourself to one brand when there are so many good options out there?

 

[2ndGearRubber]

When I was turning wrenches I had some old sockets of various makes that I used for the near liquid nuts and bolts. At that point the fit and tolerances make zero difference, you’re literally forging the fastener to fit whatever the hell you’re hammering on it. You could hammer a 8 point Craftsman socket on there and it will fit. After a few white hot bolts the socket usually looks a little rough and doesn’t fit standard sized fasteners as well as before.

Yeah, I don't think we're talking about quite the same thing. This fastener is a cone, on an M10 stud. Maybe 11mm at the top, 13mm around the center, 15mm maybe at the base, and it was a 17mm once. The threads of the stud may be visible through the "nut" in sections near the tip. You have very limited contact, and want the tightest fitting socket possible to cut in slightly but not so wide it slips down too far. If that happens it can't cut its way, it bottoms out into the base and doesn't do much since you're just pounding onto the flange at that point. I'm removing that fastener with a section maybe 2mm tall vertically on the "nut".

I get more than a year out of sockets I mostly use for that purpose with little performance drop. Probably 100+ fasteners minimum. Zeal isn't my first choice, but it certainly happens. The big issue with cheaper brands, and I'll pick on USA craftsman since I used them and you mentioned them, is lead-in taper. This raises the effective driving flats off the flange surface, which means less contact overall and the socket bottoms out sooner before engaging a section of the /\ shaped nut. That was the main issue I moved away from USA craftsman, but it does fine in most normal use and lasts a LONG time. Thick walls resist wallowing out.

I apologize, I need to clarify, I bought the HF tools for one specific reason. To see how well they hold up/failure points in a fleet service application. In the areas I had concerns about HFs ability to perform, they were sidelined for known better quality tools I already own. You mentioned open ended wrenches and the Quinn brand wrenches that came in the set were replaced with a set of USAG 285x wrenches I have because of that exact concern from past experience and so far, they were the only thing I swapped out. Nothing has let me down or failed to get the job done and if/when that happens, that tool will be replaced with a better one and I'm not going to be bothered by it. I've had that happen before and it will happen again, just how it is, there isn't a single tool brand where everything single thing they make is the 100% perfect tool for the job. I'm sure the Quinn brand wrenches would work well enough and I do have them on hand to use as beater wrenches to destroy should the need arise. I'm not about to round a fastener using the last resort open end of a wrench when its the only thing I can get on it, learned that lesson years ago working on my own vehicles.


The lead mechanic hates HF for the sake of hating HF. He was looking at the Icon pocket knife the other mechanic has, said it was a really nice knife, flipped it over and saw the Icon name on it and then immediately said it was a *************. Never used it, just immediately dismissed it because of the name on it. That's just how he is, if its not Snap-On, its garbage. I'm genuinely surprised he has Milwaukee power tools instead of their Snap-On equivalents.


The "lesser" brands I was referring to are in my home box and are SK, Craftsman, Proto, Armstrong, MAC, Matco, Bonney, Williams, Wright, Channellock, Mayhew, Wilde, Lang, Astro, Vaughn & Nupla among others I can't remember at the moment and there isn't a single HF tool in any box at home (two HF composite ratchets in my junkyard bag and they are quite nice actually). All of those brands are quality, well made tools that perform exceptionally well and have proven themselves as such by being used by thousands of people in thousands of applications for years without issue. They weren't cheap either, yet there are some people that will immediately dismiss those brands because they aren't Snap-On which makes no sense to me. No one brand of tool does everything perfectly, some have better options than others, some worse. I don't care what brand is stamped into the tool, if it's the best for the job, that's all that matters. If that happens to be a HF tool or Snap-On tool, so be it, I'll buy it and use it and not care about the name on it.


As I said before I went the HF route for my fleet service tools as an experiment as I don't have a single HF tool in any toolbox I have at home (except the JY bag) and I wanted to see how well they hold up. I don't remember the cost of the HF tools I have at work, but lets say it's $1500 for the hand tools so far. My home tools (absolutely everything include air and power), probably $40,000, maybe less, maybe more, don't really know or care. I'm not opposed to spending money on quality tools and I don't care if someone wants to go $100k in on Snap-On and only Snap-On, your money, spend it how you want. I'm gonna do things differently, no brand allegiance, just whatever works the best for me. Now, am I pissed off or upset that these cheap HF tools are, SO FAR, working just as well as the expensive tools I have? Nope, not in the least, I'm pleasantly surprised actually. Does that equate HF to Snap-On? Nope, not at all. I'm sure there will be failures of the HF stuff I have, anything can break/fail, just how it is. It will be replaced and I'll get back to work. I never downplayed the quality of Snap-On, nor was I equating HF as the same quality as Snap-On or trying to come off as superior in any way. Just stated that the HF tools have, SO FAR, gotten the job done just the same.


I have nothing against Snap-On tools, I own Snap-On tools and quite like the ones that I do have. I just said that they're a bit too expensive (sockets) to justify the cost when "lesser" brands are available. The torx/hex are the exceptions I was talking about though, the Snap-On ones are fantastic and I'm damn glad I own them versus others. Some people just have a brand allegiance and will never go outside of that brand regardless of how good/bad it may be and that's a shame as there are so many good tools out there. Why limit yourself to one brand when there are so many good options out there?

Your box at home sounds like my work box. It takes a village, and nobody makes the best of everything.

Your coworker sounds like a tool BTW. Forget him, let him be tribal.

 

[AEAdam]

Okay guys. Happy Sunday. I’m going to talk to my bolts and find out how their weekends have been so far. Maybe see if my wrenches want to go out for a coffee.

 

[AEAdam]

I apologize, I need to clarify, I bought the HF tools for one specific reason. To see how well they hold up/failure points in a fleet service application. In the areas I had concerns about HFs ability to perform, they were sidelined for known better quality tools I already own. You mentioned open ended wrenches and the Quinn brand wrenches that came in the set were replaced with a set of USAG 285x wrenches I have because of that exact concern from past experience and so far, they were the only thing I swapped out. Nothing has let me down or failed to get the job done and if/when that happens, that tool will be replaced with a better one and I'm not going to be bothered by it. I've had that happen before and it will happen again, just how it is, there isn't a single tool brand where everything single thing they make is the 100% perfect tool for the job. I'm sure the Quinn brand wrenches would work well enough and I do have them on hand to use as beater wrenches to destroy should the need arise. I'm not about to round a fastener using the last resort open end of a wrench when its the only thing I can get on it, learned that lesson years ago working on my own vehicles.


The lead mechanic hates HF for the sake of hating HF. He was looking at the Icon pocket knife the other mechanic has, said it was a really nice knife, flipped it over and saw the Icon name on it and then immediately said it was a *************. Never used it, just immediately dismissed it because of the name on it. That's just how he is, if its not Snap-On, its garbage. I'm genuinely surprised he has Milwaukee power tools instead of their Snap-On equivalents.


The "lesser" brands I was referring to are in my home box and are SK, Craftsman, Proto, Armstrong, MAC, Matco, Bonney, Williams, Wright, Channellock, Mayhew, Wilde, Lang, Astro, Vaughn & Nupla among others I can't remember at the moment and there isn't a single HF tool in any box at home (two HF composite ratchets in my junkyard bag and they are quite nice actually). All of those brands are quality, well made tools that perform exceptionally well and have proven themselves as such by being used by thousands of people in thousands of applications for years without issue. They weren't cheap either, yet there are some people that will immediately dismiss those brands because they aren't Snap-On which makes no sense to me. No one brand of tool does everything perfectly, some have better options than others, some worse. I don't care what brand is stamped into the tool, if it's the best for the job, that's all that matters. If that happens to be a HF tool or Snap-On tool, so be it, I'll buy it and use it and not care about the name on it.


As I said before I went the HF route for my fleet service tools as an experiment as I don't have a single HF tool in any toolbox I have at home (except the JY bag) and I wanted to see how well they hold up. I don't remember the cost of the HF tools I have at work, but lets say it's $1500 for the hand tools so far. My home tools (absolutely everything include air and power), probably $40,000, maybe less, maybe more, don't really know or care. I'm not opposed to spending money on quality tools and I don't care if someone wants to go $100k in on Snap-On and only Snap-On, your money, spend it how you want. I'm gonna do things differently, no brand allegiance, just whatever works the best for me. Now, am I pissed off or upset that these cheap HF tools are, SO FAR, working just as well as the expensive tools I have? Nope, not in the least, I'm pleasantly surprised actually. Does that equate HF to Snap-On? Nope, not at all. I'm sure there will be failures of the HF stuff I have, anything can break/fail, just how it is. It will be replaced and I'll get back to work. I never downplayed the quality of Snap-On, nor was I equating HF as the same quality as Snap-On or trying to come off as superior in any way. Just stated that the HF tools have, SO FAR, gotten the job done just the same.


I have nothing against Snap-On tools, I own Snap-On tools and quite like the ones that I do have. I just said that they're a bit too expensive (sockets) to justify the cost when "lesser" brands are available. The torx/hex are the exceptions I was talking about though, the Snap-On ones are fantastic and I'm damn glad I own them versus others. Some people just have a brand allegiance and will never go outside of that brand regardless of how good/bad it may be and that's a shame as there are so many good tools out there. Why limit yourself to one brand when there are so many good options out there?

Those new USAG wrenches are no slouches. Sorry I misunderstood your point.

 

[neophyte]

Years ago my former employer made a part for Snap On. Probably cost $100 in parts. They sold it to them for around $200. Snap On's retail price was $1000.

That’s probably a standard markup for a manufactured item, especially considering potential warrantee costs, and the necessity to build in a markup to the list price for tool dealers.
Personally, I would shoot for 10% of list retail price as the manufacturing cost for an item.

Mist consumers really don’t factor in necessary markups for manufacturing costs.
Snap-On has to either manufacture the parts, or buy the parts from subcontractors or probably multiple subcontractors.
Any screw up in the manufacturing process can lead to a whole batch of parts being scrapped because the parts were a few thousandths out of spec.
In the case of a subcontractor, Snap-On would then need a new batch of parts, made to the needed specs, which hopefully, the contractor is able to supply, if they can afford yo fix their screw up.
If bad parts aren’t caught before assembly, then the items need to be disassembled and fixed with proper parts, or scrapped since Snap-On as far as I know doesn’t knowingly sell seconds.
Then markups need to be built into the list retail price for Snap-On dealers, and corporate customers who get a discount, and student discounts, etc.
With a quality built item, with a lifetime warrantee, SO os also not likely to get repeat business for the same item, so that gets built into the price as well.

 

[JeepYJ]

is lead-in taper

This seems to be one of the bigger differences in cheap vs expensive tools. That tapered edge is a deal breaker on junk fasteners. It makes the cheap stuff not “fit” as well as tools without that.

 

[Kaervak]

Those new USAG wrenches are no slouches. Sorry I misunderstood your point.

No worries, I forgot some pretty important details in my post. That's what happens when its WAY past my bedtime.

 

[2ndGearRubber]

That’s probably a standard markup for a manufactured item, especially considering potential warrantee costs, and the necessity to build in a markup to the list price for tool dealers.
Personally, I would shoot for 10% of list retail price as the manufacturing cost for an item.

Mist consumers really don’t factor in necessary markups for manufacturing costs.
Snap-On has to either manufacture the parts, or buy the parts from subcontractors or probably multiple subcontractors.
Any screw up in the manufacturing process can lead to a whole batch of parts being scrapped because the parts were a few thousandths out of spec.
In the case of a subcontractor, Snap-On would then need a new batch of parts, made to the needed specs, which hopefully, the contractor is able to supply, if they can afford yo fix their screw up.
If bad parts aren’t caught before assembly, then the items need to be disassembled and fixed with proper parts, or scrapped since Snap-On as far as I know doesn’t knowingly sell seconds.
Then markups need to be built into the list retail price for Snap-On dealers, and corporate customers who get a discount, and student discounts, etc.
With a quality built item, with a lifetime warrantee, SO os also not likely to get repeat business for the same item, so that gets built into the price as well.

Please don't destroy the narrative that only snap on marks products up and walmart doesn't do the exact same thing.


I buy a retail $70 rotor for 25, and charge $100 for it. Not my parts matrix, not my call.

 

[micromind]

That's odd because I've never had a nut scream at me "no no no not that wrench!"

I have. But it doesn't use audible words, it tells you not to use the chintzy wrench by allowing its corners to be rounded off.........

 

[Mb4]

This seems to be one of the bigger differences in cheap vs expensive tools. That tapered edge is a deal breaker on junk fasteners. It makes the cheap stuff not “fit” as well as tools without that.

This and other problems. There have been cheap tools sold as long as there have been tools sold. Most of the cheap garbage is in a landfill somewhere. Nothing wrong with using cheap tools - the annoying part is the weekend warrior mentality who thinks they have discovered how to MacGyver every repair job or project on a shoestring budget. Okay, fine, whatever. That mentality doesn’t scale up, in most cases, to regular use or critical applications. IDGAF how they do things in Pakistan. They also treat people as disposable there and have enormous rates of life threatening injuries.

There are some really talented DIYers. But truth be told, there’s a selection bias in effect at “The Garage Joirnal”, where most genuine DIYers have learned some skills from another trade or industry, or took the time to really acquire foundational skills. In the larger picture, the rate of absolute hack DITers far exceeds people who have any idea what they’re doing. They’d be better off reading the Audel book than wasting their time on YouTube.

I shouldn’t complain. I made a lot of money in years past repairing what DIYers already “fixed”.

 

[Mb4]

off topic, but hope this is of interest. Read an article in a car magazine that argued if cars are not sentient now they will be soon. They have a sense of self, a history, have language, can communicate, respond to us. They can interact each other (adaptive cruise, auto braking) without us.

There’s also a philosophy gaining popularity called panpsychism….

 

[neophyte]

Please don't destroy the narrative that only snap on marks products up and walmart doesn't do the exact same thing.


I buy a retail $70 rotor for 25, and charge $100 for it. Not my parts matrix, not my call.

Every tool retailer marks tools up.
One niche tool retailer (not Snap-On) seemed to have a wholesale cost of 40% of (not off) list retail price.
I don’t think the same markup existed for all items, particularly power tools, which tended to have a much lower markup.

 

[Boogerman]

Had interesting anecdotal experience with "blind test" tool selection last week. I helped out a former employee (I'm retired) on a remote location, highly critical job. Week long job, mob in costs are equal to or greater than the work, and 1 to 2 day turn around to get a lost or broken or missing tool.

I put together a private tools set to take, that doubled up those taken by the crew. I've had a lot of experience with these type of jobs, so have a good idea of what "insurance" tools to take.

There were over 1000 fasteners on this project, 5/8" and 3/4" diameter. so 15/16" to 1 1/4" wrenches and sockets. I took no Snap-on sockets or wrenches. Took multiples in each size, Wright, Proto, MAC, Blackhawk and Craftsman. Took OTC, SK, Indestro and Proto drive tools. For the final tightening, I did take a long multi-handle Snap-on 3/4" drive ratchet head toreque wrench.

The crew leader took sets of some chinesium flavor, I didn't even look, but probably HF.

Fairly large crew, with about 10 people using the tools. We set them all out on a staging table at the beginning of the job, sorted by size.

Within a few hours, the chinesium were back in the box, unused. The Craftsman and Blackhawk were pushed to the back of the table. For wrenches, Proto, Wright and Indestro were in use. It surprised me, the long DBE Craftsman V series that I think are pretty good were shunned. Proto 12 point deep sockets were universally used. A 3/4" MAC 6 point short impact was preferred on a long OTC breaker bar for turn of the nut final tightening. A 3/4" drive 12 point Wright thin wall standard length was preferred on the torque wrench for final QC checking. Except for the MAC, 12 point were universally preferred. I think there was a perception that the thick 6 point was less likely to break with the 1/3 turn after impact refusal that we were tightenting to. The long handle round head 30 tooth 1/2" SK was the ratchet of choice. Proto long 1/2" breaker bar was preferred.

An interesting quality comparison came up in a different part of the job. A huge number of structural screws with Torx 40 heads had to be driven. The driver bits that came with the fasteners didn't last for 1/4 of the job. I got into my backup tools, and pulled out a 1/4" insert bit made by Zephyr. That bit drove the fasteners on the rest of the job, and is still in good condition.

 

[2ndGearRubber]

This and other problems. There have been cheap tools sold as long as there have been tools sold. Most of the cheap garbage is in a landfill somewhere. Nothing wrong with using cheap tools - the annoying part is the weekend warrior mentality who thinks they have discovered how to MacGyver every repair job or project on a shoestring budget. Okay, fine, whatever. That mentality doesn’t scale up, in most cases, to regular use or critical applications. IDGAF how they do things in Pakistan. They also treat people as disposable there and have enormous rates of life threatening injuries.

There are some really talented DIYers. But truth be told, there’s a selection bias in effect at “The Garage Joirnal”, where most genuine DIYers have learned some skills from another trade or industry, or took the time to really acquire foundational skills. In the larger picture, the rate of absolute hack DITers far exceeds people who have any idea what they’re doing. They’d be better off reading the Audel book than wasting their time on YouTube.

I shouldn’t complain. I made a lot of money in years past repairing what DIYers already “fixed”.

GJ is interesting like that. Bell curves and all, but an "average" DIY person on GJ is WAY above and beyond what I experience in the general population. As you said in the general population it's more about "fixing" it than actually fixing something.

GJ is crazy, people post on here about voltage drop, doing DIY timing belts, etc. The "average" DIY job is hammering the cheapest possibly pads into the bracket with no grease. I think a not insignificant number of people here have the mindset/knowledge and tools to be a professional auto mechanic. I don't think most of their bodies would hold up great, this is a forum after all not a facebook group. I also don't believe they're going to walk in and be productive. But they have the base knowledge to do the job and ability to use the tools. However GJ is certainly not the 50th percentile. Hell it's not 50th percentile for auto techs, most I know have zero interest in tools.

 

[Kaervak]

Your box at home sounds like my work box. It takes a village, and nobody makes the best of everything.

Your coworker sounds like a tool BTW. Forget him, let him be tribal.

Nah, he's a good guy. Very knowledgeable mechanic and has no problems explaining/teaching things that I haven't done before. I've learned a lot from him. He's just a ******** Snap-On guy is all.

 

[2ndGearRubber]

Nah, he's a good guy. Very knowledgeable mechanic and has no problems explaining/teaching things that I haven't done before. I've learned a lot from him. He's just a ******** Snap-On guy is all.

All my boxes/lockers/cart are Snap On, so people often assume I'm ******** "only snap on".

Over the years I've been buying more - on a job last week most of the stuff on my cart was all snap on. Sockets, hammer, electric ratchet, torque wrench. I briefly considered "what have I become?".