ZMotorsports Shop Projects 2.0

[zmotorsports]

Groan, PWZ2, another tool that I should probably own......

Sorry about that. I actually have both the PWZ2A as well as its smaller brother the PWZ1A but of the Bahco brand, which is the same as the Snap-on, but I bought the Bahco years ago and the Snap-on PWZ2A was a more recent purchase, only about 5 or 6 years ago. They work great and I love how they lock onto things, much like an older version pipe wrench.

Thanks Mike! I must have read the caption wrong....sorry about that.

No worries Keith. It may have been easy to miss. I noted it in the caption just because I thought someone would mention it and I forgot to snap a picture after I rerouted it under the backing plate tab.

@fouckhest

I don’t know how Mike accounts for consumables but I swore to myself long ago two thing would happen if I were to open another performance shop. One, cameras would be recording 100% of the time. And two, there would be a dedicated trash can for consumables.

That way in the end it’d be a here ya go, that’s exactly what that took.

The separate trash can is a good idea Cam. I have never had anyone question such things but it may also be a good way to track such items.

 

[fouckhest]

I hope that kind of answers your question. Thanks again for continuing to follow along.

Great explanation and it makes total sense! I've not really taken on any official side work, but like to think a few steps ahead when the day does arise that I feel compelled to take something on. One variable to me was the welding gas, but as you stated, you have history and it is baked into the hourly rate.

Always appreciate the info!

 

[zmotorsports]

Great explanation and it makes total sense! I've not really taken on any official side work, but like to think a few steps ahead when the day does arise that I feel compelled to take something on. One variable to me was the welding gas, but as you stated, you have history and it is baked into the hourly rate.

Always appreciate the info!

Glad the explanation was helpful Mike.

Some more food for thought on labor rates or what you will want to charge someday, when that time comes. When determining what you will charge per hour, don't just go with what others are charging in your area. While that may get you close, I tended to use surrounding shops as more of a thermometer if you will, but came up with my own labor rate based on data and calculations.

The way to actually determine your own hourly rate is to assess you and your shop's abilities to handle various types of work to make sure you have the skillset (which I think you already do) and then to make sure that your shop has the infrastructure for such work. What I mean by that is things like not taking on machining jobs if you don't have machining equipment or welding jobs if you don't have a welder or welding skillset. This changed for me over the years as I acquired such tools and skills like I am sure it did for most everyone else. What started out as a dirt cheap rate per hour during high school and shortly out of school, grew to a bit more as my capabilities (personal and equipment wise) increased.

When starting out and my skillset was much, much less than it is now, as I'm sure all of ours was, I didn't charge anywhere near as much as other shops because I was being honest with myself in my skills as well as the fact that I was just doing odds & ends as side work while beginning my actual career as an Industrial Maintenance Mechanic. As my skills grew as well as my shop's infrastructure by means of obtaining more tools and equipment, then I began charging more for side work, but I always looked and continue to look inward at skillset right along with what I was outlaying for supplies and/or materials.

When I officially opened my speed shop, with much more equipment than years prior and much less than I have now, I still tracked expenses quite closely right down to proportionately tracking utilities and insurance. All of these numbers were calculated based on annual expenses and then divided up by month and then down to how many hours I was working in my shop. Then I calculated the percentage of personal vs. actual paying jobs, then determined what I wanted for a profit margin. That was how I much more effectively determined my actual hourly shop rate. While talking with other shop owners in my area they were around 25%-40% markup on parts and 50% on labor. Labor was also their largest expense due to having multiple mechanics which also included those hidden fees like workman's comp, insurance, possible benefits even down to added expense for things like uniforms and coffee will go up with multiple mechanics so it all needs to be accounted for. At the end of the day I think a common theme was most shop owners were in the 35%-50% profit margin combined. I settled on 35% early on as what I thought was an acceptable profit margin being a one man shop and not having anywhere near the overhead other shops had to deal with, and even at that I may be been benefitting a bit more than most.

Ultimately what I found out is due to my much, much lower overhead as mentioned above, I was still able to charge well under what other shops in my area were charging and still return similar or even slightly more favorable profit margins, at least based on what other shop owners were telling me theirs was. Prior to around 2020 most labor rates in my area were in the $120-$140 per hour labor rate and shop were marking up parts around 50%-75% from wholesale. I was charging at that time $80/hr. and parts markup was 25%. That has now increased slightly based on some more recent rough calculations but shop rates in my area currently are in the $165-$185 per hour and parts are at around 100% markup from what I am being told. When I look at the quality of work coming out of many of these shops and the whole entitled "attitude" from many of them it saddens me to see what our industry has become if I'm being honest.

I have had people on multiple occasions tell me I should be charging the same or even more than what other local shops were charging purely based on the quality of work I was providing to my clients. While that was very flattering it still in my mind did not add up to the suggestion that I should be charging about double what my current shop rate was at the time. I was a fraction of what other local shops were for labor rate yet making similar profit margin and I was ok with that. Could I have made more? Absolutely. However, I didn't want to feel like I was ****** people on repair costs and wanted to be able to lay my head on the pillow at night and feel good about what I was making.

Now, playing the devil's advocate, there's also the other side of that same coin that should probably be explored. That is the fact that people are already going to be paying what the going rate in the area is, so one may as well charge as much as possible and reap the benefits of having lower overhead and being better positioned for profit margin. Afterall, the market has already been set and established a base line more or less, so why not exploit that opportunity? Yes, there is some food for thought there and I'd be lying if I said I hadn't thought about it.

Fact is, each of us have to wrestle with those same ethics at some point, so it comes down to each of our situation(s) and how we determine our worth is very personal.

I had a good friend and mentor tell me years ago that if you don't add value to you or your work, no one else will. Meaning if you under-value yourself, so will everyone else. I have struggled with finding that happy medium for many years and still don't think I have found it.

Anyways, probably much more insight, or opinion rather, than you cared to know but thought I'd throw that out there. I'd be interested to hear other people's thoughts on how they charge for doing side work from a business or non-business point of view.

 

[fouckhest]

Anyways, probably much more insight, or opinion rather, than you cared to know but thought I'd throw that out there. I'd be interested to hear other people's thoughts on how they charge for doing side work from a business or non-business point of view.

I don't think there is "too much" insight, sometimes, maybe too much opinion, but you've been there and done that! I can certainly see both side that you spoke about, but like you did state, at the end of the day/night you want to lay your head down and rest well.

I certainly fall victim all too often of displacing time in my shop because I enjoy getting together with my buddies and helping them work on cars. I am fortunate enough to have a nice shop with a lift and tools, after many years of struggle its nice to work in a comfortable environment. Which in many ways is very similar to charging too much vs. too little, because I am only shorting myself the available time to work on my own projects, but working from home and my interactions are limited to via computer, I value that comradery.

Always do and continue to appreciate your wisdom!

 

[gearhead1960]

@zmotorsports as long as you are comfortable with what you charge, then you are charging what you should. You should never short change yourself if you think you should be charging more. I remember seeing a story about the veteran mechanic called in to fix a problem no one else could fix. He spends 5 minutes looking at the problem and fixes it with the tap of a hammer. He presents the client with a bill of $20,000, whereupon the client explodes and says "you only did $100 worth of work!" The mechanic says, that might be correct from your perspective, but I fixed a problem that no one else could fix. My expertise and knowledge is worth $19,900. Pay up!

 

[GRN96WS6]

As you've seen in my thread, I like notes and most all are just handwritten.

When I take a vehicle in, I start with a standard legal pad and write down the pertinent information. Name of client, make/model/year of vehicle, mileage and then anything specific the owner requested. Many of my past clients want me to do an inspection while I have the vehicle in the shop so if that is the case, I pull out a checklist from my file cabinet and put it on a clipboard on my workbench. I have a 23-point inspection checklist that I have made and modified over the years that I use when doing an inspection. I am old school as I actually like checklists because they reduce the opportunity to forget or overlook things, a checklist is that reminder. When doing the inspection I make notations on the checklist using a "but then more detail on the legal pad of exactly the corrective actions needed.

When this information is presented to the owner, I give recommendations on what needs to be done now and what can wait and have a code system for marking the items. An "X" means the owner declined service and an "O" means they want to defer the repair to a later time. A small check mark means the repair was authorized and then a parts list can be made lower on the page.

When the repair is completed a large check mark is placed next to the smaller check mark. To me seeing two check marks means the repair was authorized and completed both.

I also track time that I work on various tasks each night and I write down what I did and how long I worked on it, just brief descriptions and time, not novels. I use this for my own reference so I can reflect back on each night's work, but more importantly I use this information for billing when the time comes for me to write up an invoice for the work. I find it is so much easier to go back over a few nights records and add up the actual hours spent on a vehicle vs. at time of writing an invoice trying to remember how much time each night as I would usually end up screwing myself by under-billing, this prevents that from happening and I can had actual documentation from the very night I did the work.

When the job is completed and returned to the client, all the paperwork is attached together and filed in my filing cabinet for future reference. This way I can refer back to my original notes if/when needed for any future work. When I had my speed shop, I performed a purge each year at tax season and only kept recent paperwork immediately on hand in my filing cabinet, anything else went into a bank box and stored for later reference. I no longer keep things long term now that I no longer have my speed shop so I just clean out my filing cabinet once or twice a year and keep my notes in my ledgers, which I don't throw away. Those are usually more for specification, etc. I think I've shown some of those in past photos where I refer back to my ledger for things like gear installs and such.


As for lists on large projects or builds, I do that as well. I will have them in various stages and my son will joke that when "the list" comes out we must be getting close. When doing the initial fabrication of the build the big stuff is pretty easy to remember as there is a flow to the work. However, as the fabrication nears the final details is when the list is generated. This helps me to remember to do those little details that cannot be forgotten before breaking down for paint and/or finish work. Things such as making sure various studs are welded to the interior for routing wiring harness as there are areas I don't like to use through-holes, small mounting brackets for various components, etc. These are the small details that can make or break a build and therefore justify being on the list so they are not forgotten.

Then when it comes to final assembly, much of the work is evident and must flow so no list is really needed. That is, until it comes down to the final details of the final assembly which is again where "the list" is generated and items are checked off as completed.

WOW! This really is a simple process and doesn't take up any time at all, but when I write it out it seems quite extensive and time consuming. I've been utilizing and fine tuning this process over the past three and half decades now and never really wrote it out before so it almost seems a bit overwhelming, but it's very quick and simple for the most part.

I'm curious to see your "writeup" or "ledger" on your sons Jeep that you had to do a couple revisits on (I'm not knocking you) just curious how you do notate that stuff.

I keep a google sheet of mileage each fill up for all my vehicles and then a separate tab for work done/service whether self done or shop done, if shop paid I try to include a cost (but don't input cost for my own self performed maintenance).

 

[PhantomEB]

It’s just me…. People ask me to work on stuff….use my garage….I tend to shut it right down…..Too much of my own stuff to do, the better half is more worth my time to spend with than on someone elses stuff or babysit them while they working in my garage….plus I just don’t want to do anything for an extra dollar.

props on you to be able to do opposite of me.

 

[Scuderia-F1]

As you've seen in my thread, I like notes and most all are just handwritten.

When I take a vehicle in, I start with a standard legal pad and write down the pertinent information. Name of client, make/model/year of vehicle, mileage and then anything specific the owner requested. Many of my past clients want me to do an inspection while I have the vehicle in the shop so if that is the case, I pull out a checklist from my file cabinet and put it on a clipboard on my workbench. I have a 23-point inspection checklist that I have made and modified over the years that I use when doing an inspection. I am old school as I actually like checklists because they reduce the opportunity to forget or overlook things, a checklist is that reminder. When doing the inspection I make notations on the checklist using a "but then more detail on the legal pad of exactly the corrective actions needed.

When this information is presented to the owner, I give recommendations on what needs to be done now and what can wait and have a code system for marking the items. An "X" means the owner declined service and an "O" means they want to defer the repair to a later time. A small check mark means the repair was authorized and then a parts list can be made lower on the page.

When the repair is completed a large check mark is placed next to the smaller check mark. To me seeing two check marks means the repair was authorized and completed both.

I also track time that I work on various tasks each night and I write down what I did and how long I worked on it, just brief descriptions and time, not novels. I use this for my own reference so I can reflect back on each night's work, but more importantly I use this information for billing when the time comes for me to write up an invoice for the work. I find it is so much easier to go back over a few nights records and add up the actual hours spent on a vehicle vs. at time of writing an invoice trying to remember how much time each night as I would usually end up screwing myself by under-billing, this prevents that from happening and I can had actual documentation from the very night I did the work.

When the job is completed and returned to the client, all the paperwork is attached together and filed in my filing cabinet for future reference. This way I can refer back to my original notes if/when needed for any future work. When I had my speed shop, I performed a purge each year at tax season and only kept recent paperwork immediately on hand in my filing cabinet, anything else went into a bank box and stored for later reference. I no longer keep things long term now that I no longer have my speed shop so I just clean out my filing cabinet once or twice a year and keep my notes in my ledgers, which I don't throw away. Those are usually more for specification, etc. I think I've shown some of those in past photos where I refer back to my ledger for things like gear installs and such.


As for lists on large projects or builds, I do that as well. I will have them in various stages and my son will joke that when "the list" comes out we must be getting close. When doing the initial fabrication of the build the big stuff is pretty easy to remember as there is a flow to the work. However, as the fabrication nears the final details is when the list is generated. This helps me to remember to do those little details that cannot be forgotten before breaking down for paint and/or finish work. Things such as making sure various studs are welded to the interior for routing wiring harness as there are areas I don't like to use through-holes, small mounting brackets for various components, etc. These are the small details that can make or break a build and therefore justify being on the list so they are not forgotten.

Then when it comes to final assembly, much of the work is evident and must flow so no list is really needed. That is, until it comes down to the final details of the final assembly which is again where "the list" is generated and items are checked off as completed.

WOW! This really is a simple process and doesn't take up any time at all, but when I write it out it seems quite extensive and time consuming. I've been utilizing and fine tuning this process over the past three and half decades now and never really wrote it out before so it almost seems a bit overwhelming, but it's very quick and simple for the most part.

I'm a taking notes person myself, I fully agree on all this being an efficient way to stay organised and not forgetting ANY details.

 

[Scuderia-F1]

Glad the explanation was helpful Mike.

Some more food for thought on labor rates or what you will want to charge someday, when that time comes. When determining what you will charge per hour, don't just go with what others are charging in your area. While that may get you close, I tended to use surrounding shops as more of a thermometer if you will, but came up with my own labor rate based on data and calculations.

The way to actually determine your own hourly rate is to assess you and your shop's abilities to handle various types of work to make sure you have the skillset (which I think you already do) and then to make sure that your shop has the infrastructure for such work. What I mean by that is things like not taking on machining jobs if you don't have machining equipment or welding jobs if you don't have a welder or welding skillset. This changed for me over the years as I acquired such tools and skills like I am sure it did for most everyone else. What started out as a dirt cheap rate per hour during high school and shortly out of school, grew to a bit more as my capabilities (personal and equipment wise) increased.

When starting out and my skillset was much, much less than it is now, as I'm sure all of ours was, I didn't charge anywhere near as much as other shops because I was being honest with myself in my skills as well as the fact that I was just doing odds & ends as side work while beginning my actual career as an Industrial Maintenance Mechanic. As my skills grew as well as my shop's infrastructure by means of obtaining more tools and equipment, then I began charging more for side work, but I always looked and continue to look inward at skillset right along with what I was outlaying for supplies and/or materials.

When I officially opened my speed shop, with much more equipment than years prior and much less than I have now, I still tracked expenses quite closely right down to proportionately tracking utilities and insurance. All of these numbers were calculated based on annual expenses and then divided up by month and then down to how many hours I was working in my shop. Then I calculated the percentage of personal vs. actual paying jobs, then determined what I wanted for a profit margin. That was how I much more effectively determined my actual hourly shop rate. While talking with other shop owners in my area they were around 25%-40% markup on parts and 50% on labor. Labor was also their largest expense due to having multiple mechanics which also included those hidden fees like workman's comp, insurance, possible benefits even down to added expense for things like uniforms and coffee will go up with multiple mechanics so it all needs to be accounted for. At the end of the day I think a common theme was most shop owners were in the 35%-50% profit margin combined. I settled on 35% early on as what I thought was an acceptable profit margin being a one man shop and not having anywhere near the overhead other shops had to deal with, and even at that I may be been benefitting a bit more than most.

Ultimately what I found out is due to my much, much lower overhead as mentioned above, I was still able to charge well under what other shops in my area were charging and still return similar or even slightly more favorable profit margins, at least based on what other shop owners were telling me theirs was. Prior to around 2020 most labor rates in my area were in the $120-$140 per hour labor rate and shop were marking up parts around 50%-75% from wholesale. I was charging at that time $80/hr. and parts markup was 25%. That has now increased slightly based on some more recent rough calculations but shop rates in my area currently are in the $165-$185 per hour and parts are at around 100% markup from what I am being told. When I look at the quality of work coming out of many of these shops and the whole entitled "attitude" from many of them it saddens me to see what our industry has become if I'm being honest.

I have had people on multiple occasions tell me I should be charging the same or even more than what other local shops were charging purely based on the quality of work I was providing to my clients. While that was very flattering it still in my mind did not add up to the suggestion that I should be charging about double what my current shop rate was at the time. I was a fraction of what other local shops were for labor rate yet making similar profit margin and I was ok with that. Could I have made more? Absolutely. However, I didn't want to feel like I was ****** people on repair costs and wanted to be able to lay my head on the pillow at night and feel good about what I was making.

Now, playing the devil's advocate, there's also the other side of that same coin that should probably be explored. That is the fact that people are already going to be paying what the going rate in the area is, so one may as well charge as much as possible and reap the benefits of having lower overhead and being better positioned for profit margin. Afterall, the market has already been set and established a base line more or less, so why not exploit that opportunity? Yes, there is some food for thought there and I'd be lying if I said I hadn't thought about it.

Fact is, each of us have to wrestle with those same ethics at some point, so it comes down to each of our situation(s) and how we determine our worth is very personal.

I had a good friend and mentor tell me years ago that if you don't add value to you or your work, no one else will. Meaning if you under-value yourself, so will everyone else. I have struggled with finding that happy medium for many years and still don't think I have found it.

Anyways, probably much more insight, or opinion rather, than you cared to know but thought I'd throw that out there. I'd be interested to hear other people's thoughts on how they charge for doing side work from a business or non-business point of view.

Mike, here's my view on this. When it comes to ethics you have absolutely nothing to worry about. Your moral and ethical compasses are perfectly aligned. Your work, shop layout, personal vehicles and your lawn tells that.

If you don't want to rise your rate, that is fine but not raising it is equal to giving away money. I'm not saying that you need to charge like everyone else in your area, or more. But underselling yourself way under the going rate, is like giving money away (without even a thank you). If your overhead is reasonably low, that's good for you. But don't give away cash, because that's just bad business. Charge your worth, that way you don't have to waffle so hard with yourself when you feel tempted to buy kit/equipment.

My friend, I don't want this to be received as criticism, it's rather meant to be the opposite. START CHARGING YOUR WORTH (or at least closer to it than what you're doing now).

 

[zmotorsports]

I'm curious to see your "writeup" or "ledger" on your sons Jeep that you had to do a couple revisits on (I'm not knocking you) just curious how you do notate that stuff.

I keep a google sheet of mileage each fill up for all my vehicles and then a separate tab for work done/service whether self done or shop done, if shop paid I try to include a cost (but don't input cost for my own self performed maintenance).

I don't have the records for my son's Jeep as that is his responsibility. He pretty much tracks it the same way I do however, with nothing more than a small spiral notebook in the glovebox for tracking service and repair work by mileage and date along with various part #'s used at each service. Then a large file in a filing cabinet with receipts and any literature or other pertinent information. I am on my second notebook in my Jeep's glovebox and a second file in the file cabinet with all the mods done over 13 years now.

I remember when I sold my 1986 Suburban back in 2009, I had the same information and when I offered the file to the new owner he declined. I was shocked because I had modified that vehicle from bumper to bumper and had a quite extensive of non-stock parts installed on it. Afterwards I tossed everything in the garbage and about a two years later I received a call from the new owner, as it had already been sold, and he was asking for these records that I offered to the buyer he purchased it from. He was frustrated when I told him I tossed them because he was very much interested.

As for fuel mileage, I used to track each gallon but stopped doing that on my daily drivers about 8 or so years ago, with the exception of our coach. I track every gallon of fuel that goes into that including date, mileage and location of fill up. I have every gallon tracked on our coach from February 7, 2007 when we purchased it.

It’s just me…. People ask me to work on stuff….use my garage….I tend to shut it right down…..Too much of my own stuff to do, the better half is more worth my time to spend with than on someone elses stuff or babysit them while they working in my garage….plus I just don’t want to do anything for an extra dollar.

props on you to be able to do opposite of me.

I found the need to make extra money many years ago when I unfortunately discovered that I have a champaign lifestyle on a beer budget. At first it was in high school just doing side jobs for money for dates and my truck as minimum wage wasn't quite cutting it @ $3.15/hour. Then it turned into wanting to purchase tools so the side work almost became a necessity. Then as I started my career as an Industrial Maintenance Mechanic, although I was making a fair wage, I found I had to build up another tool selection at home because my main set of tools was earning me my daily wage. Like most things it just seemed to snowball to where I got used to doing side work and bringing in a little extra money. As it was going into my racing addition I found others wanting me to do work for them so in 1997 it turned into a business when my wife and I opened our small speed shop.

I had friends who opened up their shops to their other friends but I just couldn't seem to do that. I have trust issues and don't think others will treat my property like I feel they should so I have a no one uses my shop rule and always have. It actually caused some family issues many years ago because my BIL wanted to use my shop to work on one of his brother's trucks and I refused to do so. Still to this day there is some contention but I stuck to my guns. I saw friend's shops turn into more like clubhouses and not much getting done and that is not what I wanted so even to this day I have a no one uses my shop rule and don't waiver on it.

If someone wants me to work on their stuff, I will, but I'll charge for it. No such thing as a free lunch. I pay my way through life and I expect others to do the same. When I need something done that I cannot do or will not due, I pay someone a fair rate to do it. Maybe I'm a bit harsh but that is how I operate.

Like you, I have too much going on to not make it worth my time. If I am not working on a paying side job, I have plenty of my own stuff to do so there has to be some carrot for me and that is twofold, knowledge and money. I feel if I only work on my own stuff then I only know my own stuff. However, if I work on other people's stuff it provides me not only the money, but almost more importantly, the knowledge of more stuff that I wouldn't have otherwise had an opportunity to work on and learn about.

 

[zmotorsports]

I'm a taking notes person myself, I fully agree on all this being an efficient way to stay organised and not forgetting ANY details.

Glad to see I'm not alone Anders. Forgetting something is one my biggest fears. I don't want to have something leave the shop and then realize I forgot to do something.

Mike, here's my view on this. When it comes to ethics you have absolutely nothing to worry about. Your moral and ethical compasses are perfectly aligned. Your work, shop layout, personal vehicles and your lawn tells that.

If you don't want to rise your rate, that is fine but not raising it is equal to giving away money. I'm not saying that you need to charge like everyone else in your area, or more. But underselling yourself way under the going rate, is like giving money away (without even a thank you). If your overhead is reasonably low, that's good for you. But don't give away cash, because that's just bad business. Charge your worth, that way you don't have to waffle so hard with yourself when you feel tempted to buy kit/equipment.

My friend, I don't want this to be received as criticism, it's rather meant to be the opposite. START CHARGING YOUR WORTH (or at least closer to it than what you're doing now).

I appreciate your feedback Anders. To be honest, I have mental anguish over this internal struggle, even more so lately. For the most part I feel like the service or services I perform on people's vehicles or other work that I perform in my shop is nothing out of the ordinary. The things I do I just feel like any "normal" shop should be doing to their client's vehicles for the amount they are charging. Hell, let me be honest, for any amount they are charging these are things that I feel should be done and how they should be done, not just by the shops charging the higher labor rates. However, in reality I find that not many, if any, shops perform anywhere near the degree of detail and attention to the jobs at hand than I try to provide.

I am to the point in my life where I am nearing the end of having to chase the carrot if you will. I have made it very clear to my small list of clients that my stuff comes first and if or when I have time I can get to their work, then I will and not before. Most agree to that and those that don't I have no hard feelings, and they are welcome to go elsewhere to have their work completed. I hear quite a lot that people will wait for me to get to their work. I want to believe that it is solely because of the quality of work, however, in the back of my mind maybe it is just as much my cheaper shop rate.

Years ago I had my mentor tell me to raise my rates and it would sort out those looking at my work solely from the less expensive perspective and it will adjust accordingly by those who value the workmanshiop vs. cost. I adjusted it slightly and not much changed so I may have to look at adjusting it again. I like annual things so maybe I will have to take a closer look at things over the next month or so and adjust going into the new year and see if my workload shrinks or stays the same.

 

[Scuderia-F1]

Glad to see I'm not alone Anders. Forgetting something is one my biggest fears. I don't want to have something leave the shop and then realize I forgot to do something.





I appreciate your feedback Anders. To be honest, I have mental anguish over this internal struggle, even more so lately. For the most part I feel like the service or services I perform on people's vehicles or other work that I perform in my shop is nothing out of the ordinary. The things I do I just feel like any "normal" shop should be doing to their client's vehicles for the amount they are charging. Hell, let me be honest, for any amount they are charging these are things that I feel should be done and how they should be done, not just by the shops charging the higher labor rates. However, in reality I find that not many, if any, shops perform anywhere near the degree of detail and attention to the jobs at hand than I try to provide.

I am to the point in my life where I am nearing the end of having to chase the carrot if you will. I have made it very clear to my small list of clients that my stuff comes first and if or when I have time I can get to their work, then I will and not before. Most agree to that and those that don't I have no hard feelings, and they are welcome to go elsewhere to have their work completed. I hear quite a lot that people will wait for me to get to their work. I want to believe that it is solely because of the quality of work, however, in the back of my mind maybe it is just as much my cheaper shop rate.

Years ago I had my mentor tell me to raise my rates and it would sort out those looking at my work solely from the less expensive perspective and it will adjust accordingly by those who value the workmanshiop vs. cost. I adjusted it slightly and not much changed so I may have to look at adjusting it again. I like annual things so maybe I will have to take a closer look at things over the next month or so and adjust going into the new year and see if my workload shrinks or stays the same.

Mike, you do realise that you don’t have to feel bad or excuse yourself for charging almost as much as the ones not doing it properly, right?

I’m the same as you, I don’t consider it ”special” to do work properly, as it’s supposed to be done. But in this day and age it is. Most work being done with focus on beating the book time etc. Some people wants it to be done cheap, some people don’t know any better, some people wants it done right.

As your mentor told you, adjust your rate and it’ll sorts it self. You just didn’t adjust it enough last time.

ideally your workload shrinks but not the profit. Even better if the workload shrinks and the profit grows.

 

[zmotorsports]

I was hoping to finish the Super Duty last night but ended up running around after work like a chicken with his head cut off so only had about an hour in the shop, which wasn't quite enough to complete it.

With the lengthy discussion on note taking and ledgers, I thought I'd snap a quick photo of what that looked like on this vehicle. Customer's name and vehicle date written on the top along with actual customer complaints. In going with my Four C's from previously mentioned, I don't like the word complaints, anyone can complain and most customers do just that. What I like to do is find the actual Condition. Complaints written down, then a test drive with the owner determined that the conditions were different than his complaints.

I noted my initial findings and then whether the client agreed for me to perform the work (with a small check mark), or wanted to forego them at this time and possibly later (marked with an O) or refused service (indicated by an X). Then as work progressed and other items were revealed, the same scenario, written down, contact owner to get approval or not and move through the process.

Once the list was compiled, a list of parts was generated and ordered and then one by one marked off the list as the work was completed. In the ledger, each night's work was recorded as the list was tackled. I must also note, that these are actually quite clean compared to some of my notes. Some have smudge marks from dirty hands but this actually looks fairly decent. Please excuse my poor handwriting as it has gotten substantially worse over the past several years.


I installed the tie rod and torqued the end joints to 70 ft/lbs. Then clamped my alignment plates to the rotors which were bolted onto the hubs and measurements were taken to set the toe. I was able to get it extremely close, if not dead nuts on, but the owner has been notified that he may want to get a front end alignment afterwards.


Lowered down and ready to install the front tires/wheels.


Torqueing the wheels to spec.


All tires/wheels torqued to spec. and center caps installed.


All I have remaining is to add transmission fluid and clean the battery terminals before a test drive.

Thanks for looking.

 

[zmotorsports]

Mike, you do realise that you don’t have to feel bad or excuse yourself for charging almost as much as the ones not doing it properly, right?

I’m the same as you, I don’t consider it ”special” to do work properly, as it’s supposed to be done. But in this day and age it is. Most work being done with focus on beating the book time etc. Some people wants it to be done cheap, some people don’t know any better, some people wants it done right.

As your mentor told you, adjust your rate and it’ll sorts it self. You just didn’t adjust it enough last time.

ideally your workload shrinks but not the profit. Even better if the workload shrinks and the profit grows.

Thank you Anders. No, a somewhat smaller waiting list wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing.

I think the not charging what other shops charge is a mindset I unfortunately developed many years ago that I just can't seem to shake. I was told once that I shouldn't charge what other shops charge because I "wasn't a legitimate shop". I remedied that by getting my business license and doing everything I needed to legally to be a legitimate business. Unfortunately, some of my fellow shop owners in the area still didn't see me as a "legitimate shop" because I was working at home and didn't have to rent in some commercial area or have multiple personnel. I looked at that as a huge benefit and not something I needed to apologize for. I even heard afterwards that a couple shop owners went to my local city to challenge my business license. These were people that I had developed relationships with through the many seminars and such that we attended together and I thought many of us shop owners were actually friends. I learned the hard way that it's a dog eat dog world no matter the environment.

I do think that those feelings of not being a legitimate shop because it was a home business must have stuck with me because I took that heavily into account when I was calculating expenses to come up with profit margins over the years. Looking back, I can't for the life of me figure out why a small one-person shop could have been any kind of a threat to their business. However, that was years ago when I think shops were begging for work which is a vastly different market than in today's world.

I appreciate your comments Anders and may have to do a bit more contemplating. I do finally realize that I may do things that go above and beyond the norm, and much of that self-awareness is made possible by people on this forum and their more than generous comments.

 

[OutlawDrifter]

Unfortunately, some of my fellow shop owners in the area still didn't see me as a "legitimate shop" because I was working at home and didn't have to rent in some commercial area or have multiple personnel.

I even heard afterwards that a couple shop owners went to my local city to challenge my business license. These were people that I had developed relationships with through the many seminars and such that we attended together and I thought many of us shop owners were actually friends. I learned the hard way that it's a dog eat dog world no matter the environment.

Once you train your brain not to care what others feel/think in regards to YOUR business/personal/etc, the second half of your life begins

Those other shop owners knew you were a threat with quality work vs production "get it out the door and billed" work.

From what you've shown on here, I believe you to be a man of morals and integrity. As long as you can look yourself in the mirror and be in step with your immediate family, to hell with what others think!

And as to my definition of integrity...it can be summed up simply, "doing the right thing even when no one is looking"!

 

[Finallygotit]

However, in reality I find that not many, if any, shops perform anywhere near the degree of detail and attention to the jobs at hand than I try to provide.

So true!

 

[Scuderia-F1]

Thank you Anders. No, a somewhat smaller waiting list wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing.

I think the not charging what other shops charge is a mindset I unfortunately developed many years ago that I just can't seem to shake. I was told once that I shouldn't charge what other shops charge because I "wasn't a legitimate shop". I remedied that by getting my business license and doing everything I needed to legally to be a legitimate business. Unfortunately, some of my fellow shop owners in the area still didn't see me as a "legitimate shop" because I was working at home and didn't have to rent in some commercial area or have multiple personnel. I looked at that as a huge benefit and not something I needed to apologize for. I even heard afterwards that a couple shop owners went to my local city to challenge my business license. These were people that I had developed relationships with through the many seminars and such that we attended together and I thought many of us shop owners were actually friends. I learned the hard way that it's a dog eat dog world no matter the environment.

I do think that those feelings of not being a legitimate shop because it was a home business must have stuck with me because I took that heavily into account when I was calculating expenses to come up with profit margins over the years. Looking back, I can't for the life of me figure out why a small one-person shop could have been any kind of a threat to their business. However, that was years ago when I think shops were begging for work which is a vastly different market than in today's world.

I appreciate your comments Anders and may have to do a bit more contemplating. I do finally realize that I may do things that go above and beyond the norm, and much of that self-awareness is made possible by people on this forum and their more than generous comments.

Mike, let me just first make it perfectly clear, you’re an inspiration and role model, not just to me but I’m sure there’s many just like me.

You can without doubt hold your head high. Your shop is top notch, your skillset is also without doubt tier 1.
So just because the competition is so broke ***, so they can’t have facilities like yours in their backyards. Why would that be held against you? It’s rather something that should be held against them!

You do some of that pondering my friend, I’m sure you will make the right decision comes 2025.

 

[Scuderia-F1]

Once you train your brain not to care what others feel/think in regards to YOUR business/personal/etc, the second half of your life begins

Those other shop owners knew you were a threat with quality work vs production "get it out the door and billed" work.

From what you've shown on here, I believe you to be a man of morals and integrity. As long as you can look yourself in the mirror and be in step with your immediate family, to hell with what others think!

And as to my definition of integrity...it can be summed up simply, "doing the right thing even when no one is looking"!

Well said.

 

[Finallygotit]

You can without doubt hold your head high. Your shop is top notch, your skillset is also without doubt tier 1.
So just because the competition is so broke ***, so they can’t have facilities like yours in their backyards. Why would that be held against you? It’s rather something that should be held against them!

In my opinion, Mike's shop and work ethic is something they should aspire to.

In my opinion again, pride in workmanship, in any trade, seems to be a lost art. At least that's what I have seen with the work I have hired out around here. I always seem to have to follow up on what others have done to clean up their work and fu-bars.

 

[ScepterToad]

On the topic of records Mike, how do you account for the towed miles on your Jeep? Looking at the maintenance book I have for mine, and the recommended intervals for things like differentials and transfer case, I feel that I should start to account for those. The drivetrain isn't under a load per se when flat towing, but stuff is certainly spinning.

 

[ntsqd]

Pride in workmanship seems to be somewhat discouraged at my work. The company that bought us makes all of the right noises in public, but when I try to actually do that the reality is a bit different. Fundamentally the problem is Wall St's short-sighted, immediate profits only concern.

The avatar vehicle has an hour meter on it. It got flat towed likely more miles than it got driven. I've no idea if the current owner pays any attention to it, but I used that against the odometer to make maintenance decisions.

 

[gearhead1960]

@zmotorsports If you were close to me, I would be on your waiting list, no matter how much you wanted to charge me or the wait time!

 

[aka Larry]

And as to my definition of integrity...it can be summed up simply, "doing the right thing even when no one is looking"!

Well said sir. Well said.

I'm pretty sure Mike doesn't even know how to "just let it slide" when doing any repair work.

 

[aka Larry]

I wonder what the owner would say if Mike detailed that Super Duty like his coach? He probably wouldn't even recognize it!

 

[Finallygotit]

Well said sir. Well said.

I'm pretty sure Mike doesn't even know how to "just let it slide" when doing any repair work.

Oh I think he does, like when a client tells him not to do a repair. I can just see the cringe look on his face.

 

[zanyad]

@zmotorsports If you were close to me, I would be on your waiting list, no matter how much you wanted to charge me or the wait time!

me too!

 

[zmotorsports]

Thank you all for the kind words and more importantly, the shared vision of many things that I feel are important and the role(s) we each play in society.

Lack of pride and quality of workmanship is something that has always bothered me, but I think it is safe to say overall it has gotten much worse over the past few years.

We each have a choice to make when we approach various tasks, that choice is to half-*** our way through something or to do it to the best of our ability and look at each task as a way to learn and become better at whatever that task is. Natural progression should be as we complete various tasks and challenge ourselves to improve, we should be putting forth more effort and refining our skills over time. I simply think some people "choose" not to put forth that kind of effort.

In my opinion, Mike's shop and work ethic is something they should aspire to.

In my opinion again, pride in workmanship, in any trade, seems to be a lost art. At least that's what I have seen with the work I have hired out around here. I always seem to have to follow up on what others have done to clean up their work and fu-bars.

I have found the same Dan, and it is frustrating as hell. I remember when I had our coach painted and how overall I was pleased with the job the shop did, however, upon arriving home I discovered there were a lot of little details that I was less than impressed with. I found I had to redo about half of the LED lights because they wired them backwards and the other half weren't sealed against the body properly, so I had to not only rewire lights, but also removed caulking and redo quite a bit.

When I had my shop built, I had to stay right on top of the contractor and although he thought I was being **** and "picky", I felt like if I hadn't been so overbearing during the construction process, I don't think I would have ended up with the final product that I did.

 

[zmotorsports]

@zmotorsports If you were close to me, I would be on your waiting list, no matter how much you wanted to charge me or the wait time!

I appreciate the vote of confidence Mark.

Well said sir. Well said.

I'm pretty sure Mike doesn't even know how to "just let it slide" when doing any repair work.

Oh I think he does, like when a client tells him not to do a repair. I can just see the cringe look on his face.

I'm not gonna lie, I don't like to see things get pushed off, but I do understand financial choices and what makes sense to do now vs. what can potentially wait. I think I do a good job of at least giving people the facts they need to make those choices.

I have also learned over the years that although in my head I want to make things perfect, that really isn't practical or even possible many times. Even my own vehicles aren't perfect, regardless of what you guys think.

 

[zmotorsports]

On the topic of records Mike, how do you account for the towed miles on your Jeep? Looking at the maintenance book I have for mine, and the recommended intervals for things like differentials and transfer case, I feel that I should start to account for those. The drivetrain isn't under a load per se when flat towing, but stuff is certainly spinning.

Sorry Keith, I overlooked this.

I don't really have a definitive answer on how I plan maintenance on some parts of the Jeep. I look at it like this; the only parts moving when flat towing are from the transfer case's output shafts down to the tires. In reality the tires really don't wear that much being towed because they are not being powered. They are just along for the ride, so wear is very minimal. I have found that I kind of roughly track those miles in my head and plan accordingly on when to rotate tires. I also found that if I rotate tires in between each 4k mile LOF service, that they wear better being a more aggressive tire. If we have a trip coming up that is going to be more than a couple hundred miles and it is near the 2k mile mark since the last LOF service, then I will rotate before we leave and it gives me an opportunity to put hands and eyes on the chassis. If I figure we will be closer to 2k when we return then I'll wait. If I am nearing the 3500 mile range or so, I will prematurely perform a standard LOF service AND rotate tires, it just kind of depends on the trip and how far it will be to get there and how many miles I think we'll put on the Jeep during the trip. The flat towing really doesn't influence the engine or transmission services and I use normal routine preventive maintenance work to inspect various components to look for wear or any signs of parts needing to be replaced.


As for fluids in the transfer case and axles, they pretty much get replaced prematurely anyways, so even with the unaccounted-for exact mileage the fluids are fresher than they need to be much of the time. I think due to the off-road stresses I put on various components, that servicing things slightly before the required maintenance calls for is more than covering me on the mileage from flat-towing it the 5k-6k each year. That's more of a SWAG though.

 

[zmotorsports]

I don't think there is "too much" insight, sometimes, maybe too much opinion, but you've been there and done that! I can certainly see both side that you spoke about, but like you did state, at the end of the day/night you want to lay your head down and rest well.

I certainly fall victim all too often of displacing time in my shop because I enjoy getting together with my buddies and helping them work on cars. I am fortunate enough to have a nice shop with a lift and tools, after many years of struggle its nice to work in a comfortable environment. Which in many ways is very similar to charging too much vs. too little, because I am only shorting myself the available time to work on my own projects, but working from home and my interactions are limited to via computer, I value that comradery.

Always do and continue to appreciate your wisdom!

I apologize for inputting too much opinion Mike. I know I am very opinionated, especially about certain things, and maybe I come across a bit too abrasive in sharing those opinions. I will work on reeling that back a bit.

 

[fouckhest]

I apologize for inputting too much opinion Mike. I know I am very opinionated, especially about certain things, and maybe I come across a bit too abrasive in sharing those opinions. I will work on reeling that back a bit.

Mike, my apologies, that comment was NOT directed at you in any way, sorry, I should have disclosed that, I think YOUR opinions are valuable! I was speaking more around personal experiences with locals (and keyboard warriors abroad) that may or may not, "talk out of both sides of their mouth"

Please, no reeling at this point!

 

[zmotorsports]

Mike, my apologies, that comment was NOT directed at you in any way, sorry, I should have disclosed that, I think YOUR opinions are valuable! I was speaking more around personal experiences with locals (and keyboard warriors abroad) that may or may not, "talk out of both sides of their mouth"

Please, no reeling at this point!

Thanks Mike, but I do know I have a tendency to go off on a tangent at times. I would hope that even though I may come across as opinionated, that I can show the evidence of what drives those opinions. I am NOT always right, even though in my mind I am. Life experiences teach us things and when that is reinforced repeatedly those opinions are often times confirmed and strengthened. However, I need to realize that we all may have different experiences teaching us different things.

 

[PugetDude]

@zmotorsports If you were close to me, I would be on your waiting list, no matter how much you wanted to charge me or the wait time!

Book an appointment then show up in a Cybertruck...

 

[zmotorsports]

Book an appointment then show up in a Cybertruck...

That would be a long drive for nothing. Although, I wouldn't mind ripping one apart, just to see if I could put it back together again. Someone would have to be the guinea pig.

 

[olsenmotorsports]

This is great insight thank you. I’m a half administration () from the exit to my own home shop and have often struggled with “what I am going to charge”. Thank you for the inspiration.

 

[zmotorsports]

This is great insight thank you. I’m a half administration () from the exit to my own home shop and have often struggled with “what I am going to charge”. Thank you for the inspiration.

Thank you. I am very flattered coming from you. I think if anyone has this figured out it would be you. I have enjoyed following along on your thread and have gained a lot of insight and perspective to things pertaining to automotive business on a much larger scale than I ever had.

 

[mercracing]

Mike, you don’t know me from anyone, but I love reading your threads. Regardless of topic weather it is vehicles, tools, home/building, relationships, etc I enjoy your perspective. It is extremely refreshing to follow along about how things should be done. Also, add me to the list of people who wish you lived closer as I would gladly pay to have you work on our Jeep.

 

[bugnut]

Mike, you don’t know me from anyone, but I love reading your threads. Regardless of topic weather it is vehicles, tools, home/building, relationships, etc I enjoy your perspective. It is extremely refreshing to follow along about how things should be done. Also, add me to the list of people who wish you lived closer as I would gladly pay to have you work on our Jeep.

What he said

 

[zmotorsports]

Mike, you don’t know me from anyone, but I love reading your threads. Regardless of topic weather it is vehicles, tools, home/building, relationships, etc I enjoy your perspective. It is extremely refreshing to follow along about how things should be done. Also, add me to the list of people who wish you lived closer as I would gladly pay to have you work on our Jeep.

What he said

Thanks guys. I appreciate the kind words. Sometimes my perspective on things isn't always appreciated so I'm glad you find it refreshing.

 

[zmotorsports]

I was able to finish up the Super Duty last night and get it returned to the owner. He arrived just as I was returning from the test drive.

Upon arriving home, I filled the transmission with fluid and then moved on to the nasty batteries.

Cleaned the top, then checked the water.


Then began cleaning the terminals.


After reconnecting the terminals I applied some NOCO battery terminal protector.


One down, one to go.


Not a pretty sight when I pop the hood and see things like this.


Sprayed some foam cleaner/degreaser and let it soak for a minute or so.


Then filled my squire bottle with distilled water.


And topped this battery off with water.


Battery #2 terminals cleaned, reconnected and covered in NOCO protective gel.




That wraps up the work on the 2007 Super Duty.

I went over the work order and invoice with the owner and he seemed pleased with the results so hopefully another satisfied client.

Thanks for following along.