James J. Ryan Tool Works

[d42jeep]

The lowest screwdrIver in the picture has markings that match the two above it and looks to be 9-1/2” long.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

The lowest screwdrIver in the picture has markings that match the two above it and looks to be 9-1/2” long.

And? I have zero doubt that's a GGG-S-121 Type V Class B compliant screwdriver, Don. (Just as I have zero doubt that YOUR screwdriver, with a different marking, is also a GGG-S-121 Type V Class B compliant screwdriver!) When is the question. All the markings being applied with a heavy consistent stamp on the two HD's and the EHD shows they were made around the same time, but it doesn't indicate when that was. It could be the 50's or 60s. In fact, they look just like the postwar Federal drivers to me. These drivers were in production virtually unchanged well into the 90's.

Let me re-emphasize that I would love nothing more than to validate these Ryan EHD's. They would be a great driver to look out for! But I cannot willfully ignore a 1937 Fed Spec list spelling out that Ryan was not making them on top of Ryan's own 40's catalog not including them. We need something that refutes that.

 

[d42jeep]

The Plomb Ell wasn’t included in any catalog. That doesn’t mean that Plomb wasn’t making them for the military? Did I miss Irwin being included on the ‘37 list? Apparently most of the screwdrivers below may be GMTK correct but the Ryan couldn’t be because it doesn’t appear in a Ryan catalog until 1958? Whatever.
It just doesn’t make sense to me that Ryan, whose entire business was screwdrivers and punches, wouldn’t supply all the specification matching screwdrivers to the ORD during WW2. They wouldn’t have necessarily included them in any catalog.
-Don

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Oh, there are more than a few anomalies, with other hand tools, too, but I am not concerned about the other mfgrs on this topic, which may very well have added tools to their lines between 1937 and the war and have been validated by their catalogs and other documents. That doesn't undermine the very peculiar consistency of this 1937 Fed Spec list and Ryan's 40's catalog both indicating they weren't making them yet. That is way too consistent to be a coincidence or a mistake or an omission. In no other similar circumstances have we ever so baldly conveniently dismissed that kind of evidence. In all other similar circumstances it would be considered invalidating or at least questionable until alleviated somehow.

EDIT: But this really is getting ad hominem and ad nauseam now. I will post what's in the '40 and '47 ads, if it's relevant to helping date them, and if Google Books releases them, and move on.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

I will post what's in the '40 and '47 ads, if it's relevant to helping date them, and if Google Books releases them, and move on.

Well, the Google Books team finally got back to me. They could only accommodate one of my four unlock requests. Fortunately, it was a pretty good one.

I present the Hardware Retailer, dated July 1943.



This is a directory style publication, listing hardware from A to Z, by name, and then listing sources underneath that. It has very few ads and pictures, and those that are included are inserted in and around the listings, which the mfgrs must have paid extra for. Anyway, the J.J. Ryan Tool Works is listed prolifically under multiple tools.

The Screwdrivers section starts on page 613 and continues to page 614, listing them by type. Ryan is listed under Screwdrivers, General; Screwdrivers, Phillips, Plastic Handle; Screwdrivers, Phillips, Wood Handle; Screwdrivers, Regular, Plastic Handle; and Screwdrivers, Regular, Wood Handle.

They inserted little ads in the General, Plastic Handle, and Wood Handle sections.

The ad insert in the General section summarizes their entire line.



Note how Ryan's little ad explicitly distinguishes their "Machinists'" screwdrivers from their "Perfect Handle" screwdrivers. Note how that's perfectly consistent with J.J. Ryan Tool Works Catalog No. 23, dated to the 1940's on IA/ITCL, which does not include any machinists' screwdrivers in the "Perfect Handle" section, only here, with a hard rubberoid hand, called "Heavy Duty", which is also consistent with the parenthetical phrase in the 1943 Hardware Retailer ad above...



For complete context, note further that the J.J. Ryan Tool Works catalog No. 26, dated 1958, still includes the Heavy Duty Machinists' screwdrivers they historically offered, but now also offers an Extra Heavy Duty Machinist screwdriver as well.



For comprehensiveness, I conducted a painstaking inventory, comparing the July 1943 Hardware Retailer to the ca. 1940's J.J. Ryan Catalog No. 23 to see if anything else may have been omitted. No. They are perfectly consistent. J.J. Ryan Tool Works is listed in the directory under every category of tool they offered in Catalog No. 23, and vice versa. Tangentially, this reference also helps confirm @Mark Stansbury 's rationale for dating Catalog No. 23.

In my opinion, the 1937 Treasury Dept Circular, the July 1943 Hardware Retailer, and the No. 23 catalog that IA/ITCL dates to the ca. 1940's are all very consistent in indicating that J.J. Ryan was apparently not making an ORD Dept spec Type V, Machinists, Extra heavy duty screwdriver, until sometime after July 1943 and before 1958. Stressing again, in my opinion, one of these documents not including it could be a mistake. Two inadvertently omitting it would be very questionable. All three inadvertently omitting it is highly implausible.

It is possible that Ryan started making them very late war. Hopefully we'll find more references.

Anyone who wants to explore inside this reference can find it here.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Well, it's officially a collection now!

I found the middle one at the flea this morning, as first reported on the Garage Sale thread. Of course the scales aren't the same shade after all this time, and I noticed that two are marked, simply, RYAN'S, and the smallest is J.J. RYAN TOOL WORKS, so not the same era. But we're ignoring those minor distinctions for now!

 

[MisterEd]

J.J. Ryan FrankenHammer
SigO found this last week and we agreed it had to be salvaged so that someday someone can restore it. Except for the Scales it’s functional. And then there’s the question, “But why??”

 

[RTM]

And then there’s the question, “But why??”

Used to know an old millwright who made Perfect Handle style tools where none existed before.

Ratchet handles, and a few others, maybe Phillips Screwdrivers.

Why?
Because he could.
To give future generations of tool collectors fits.
Why not?

Experienced welder, cleaned them up like new.

Links aren’t opening, but here is an email he wrote

OldTools Archive

swingleydev.com

I had to drag out my welding machine this morning to weld the hammer heads to the Perfect Handle handles.

While I was doing that, I remembered that Bob Brophy had made a couple of PH tools that I had not yet made. Well, I cured that problem. I am now the owner of 2 PH hammers, a tack puller, a Phillips screwdriver, a scratch awl, and a 6" adjustable wrench.

I also showed the welds on the hammer heads for those who might want to duplicate this. I put up new pictures.

http://homepage.mac.com/oldmillrat/PhotoAlbum92.html

I now claim the title of owner of the most counterfeit Perfect Handle tools. I eagerly await someone showing us more of these.

 

[MisterEd]

Why?
Because he could.
To give future generations of tool collectors fits.
Why not?

Indeed! That's one reason for getting it. The other part of the question is "Why'd someone need such a short hammer?" On what and where was the hammer used?

One son of the previous owner and likely welder said his father worked on everything. He had a quonset hut garage in his back yard large enough to hold a big rig with room to spare. The SigO would've gotten the 4 foot long pipe wrench he had if she could have found one more reason than "why not?"

Appreciate the observation and we hope we find someone, someday, with the ability and interest to restore the hammer to it's previous . . . glory? Usefulness?

 

[Private Lugnutz]

"Why'd someone need such a short hammer?"

They come in handy from time to time. Have you ever choked up on a hammer handle? Or sawed one off? Some blows are better when they're short and compact, especially with a heavier head in close quarters.

Another reason could've been to fit in a small carry toolbox or tool bag that fit everything else (pliers, wrenches, etc,) except the hammer. In the 30's and 40's Vlchek made and sold a line of ballpein hammers that they called "Tool Kit Pattern". They were all several inches shorter in OAL than their regular counterpart hammers with the same weight heads. Their regular 1-lber had a 14" handle, for example. Conversely, their Tool Kit Pattern 1-lber had a 10" handle!

That's a neat hammer. SigO always finds the best stuff!