trying to decide on bolts and nuts

[BurtEggley]

Background: have a Husqvarna front tine tiller I bought used over the winter. They were leaving the state and the guy I bought it from said it only had a couple hours on it in their rocky soil up the hill, but the tines are not really that worn so i don't think it has seen a lot of use. Looks pretty new, circa 2020-2021 but probably It replaces a 30 year old Craftsman that I sold a couple years ago, same basic design, probably MTD. Many of the parts are the same, although not as sturdy as the ones made 30 years ago. Never thought I would use one again when I sold the Craftsman but the garden was getting too compacted so I shopped for a used one. The garden is too small, about 200 sq ft, for a rear tine unit. Anyway the design, tines, transmission etc are the same other than the frame is slightly different, and engine is a Kohler instead of a Tecumseh. Works well although reverse is really fast and takes some getting used to because as it come back, as one backs up the reverse lever is hard to let go of. Would be easy to trip, fail to let go, and have it go over a person. The Sears had a knob one pulled which worked better. Sears was a 26", this is 24". Anyway, back to the question. Many of the bolts on this thing are loose, and they don't feel like grade 5, although they are supposed to be grade 5 according to the parts description. Feel, look and wear more like grade 3. The bolt heads don't have the three slashes either. While using it yesterday I noticed the engine seemed to be torqueing to one side and sure enough two of the engine mounting bolts had vibrated loose. The remaining two were also loose. So I used what I had on hand, fixed it, and it is Ok for now but I really need to replace the fasteners that are loosening. So any thoughts whether yellow zinc grade 8 would be overkill or anyone have opinions if standard zinc grade 5 would be adequate. Stainless would be too soft, and the unit gets stored in a dry shed when not in use.

 

[BillK]

If you are going to purchase bolts the difference in price between Grade 5 and Grade 8 is so small that I would use the grade 8 ones.

 

[NUTTSGT]

I stock Grade 5 in the garage and some (few) Grade 8 hardware. 5 is what I would have reached for.

 

[Stuart in MN]

Are there lock washers or some other way to keep the fasteners tight? Are you torquing them down adequately? Maybe all you need are replacement washers or nylock nuts or a little bit of Locktite on the threads.
Unless you have bolts that have actually broken or snapped, I don't see any reason for replacing them. Grade 8 (or the metric equivalent, if the tiller has metric fasteners) aren't necessary.

 

[gtae07]

Unless you have bolts that have actually broken or snapped, I don't see any reason for replacing them. Grade 8 (or the metric equivalent, if the tiller has metric fasteners) aren't necessary.

True, though for a few bucks it might be nice to have good fresh hardware that you know is torqued right and isn't corroded.

 

[T444e]

If you are going to purchase bolts the difference in price between Grade 5 and Grade 8 is so small that I would use the grade 8 ones.

I'm the opposite, i typically use grade 2 hardware, maybe grade 5 if I'm concerned about strength and grade 8 only when necessary. I prefer grade 2 in threaded holes as they are easier to drill out.

OP, I'd follow the manufacturer's recommendation of grade 5 and use medium strength (blue) Loctite.

 

[NUTTSGT]

True, though for a few bucks it might be nice to have good fresh hardware that you know is torqued right and isn't corroded.

That's one reason I like to keep a stock of fasteners on hand. When in doubt, throw it out.

I'm the opposite, i typically use grade 2 hardware, maybe grade 5 if I'm concerned about strength and grade 8 only when necessary. I prefer grade 2 in threaded holes as they are easier to drill out.

OP, I'd follow the manufacturer's recommendation of grade 5 and use medium strength (blue) Loctite.

I completely understand the reason for Grade 2. However, when I noticed some grade 2 stuff from TSC, start to bend and stretch.... precursor to breaking in tightening up, I made the decision to start stocking Grade 5 in my garage.

 

[Junkdrawer Dog]

Can't you just clean up the old bolts and use some medium strength (blue) threadlocker?

 

[BurtEggley]

in answer to the questions. Some of the ones in there now feel soft and the threads are easily stretched, rounded and pulled The ones that were missing appear to have had locking nuts, based on the two that were still there but loose. Anyone who has owned a tiller knows how much it vibrates and shakes. I usually use blue loctite in many applications. These were all installed either by the last owner or the factory. I just figured rather than replace one at a time as it failed, I'd do them all. Bolts and nuts aren't that much. Retail was about $600 on the tiller and I only paid $250 plus the gas to go get it, about $20. All the used ones around here are either beat to death or as much as a new one. We are pretty much forced to us electric / battery these days on small engine driven things like this new, or drive 150 miles to another state where ICE ones are sold. I looked again last night for kicks and there were a bunch of $500 tillers people were trying to sell for around $800 used and beat up. I think that I will go with the grade 5 but it is not that much more for the yellow zinc coated grade 8, so I waffle on the decision. I have read each suggestion and thank you for taking the time to make it.

I am thinking that the grade 5 bolts probably have better stretch qualities than the 8 for the soft steel frame and aluminum parts that are pulled together by them. Meaning that I don't want perfect bolts but a cracked frame at the washers down the line. Next to find who has what I need. Usually I get from McMaster Carr but they want min packs of 25 to 50. I am kind of burned out on the quality of the "couple here and there" ones I get from the local Ace. We have one Ace about 1/2 hour away that has a hardware room with really good quality and selection, but I hate the drive towards downtown - besides, a dozen bolts at 74 cents each is the same as 25 online at McMaster Carr. Most all my hardware is metric, and the few stainless I have are too soft. I learned that when I rebuilt a couple 100 hp Mercury outboards years ago and used stainless instead of zinc coated factory stuff. Too much of the stainless snapped below torque specs, so I only use them in limited situations. All that said, the replacements from Husqvarna are listed as grade 5 but it is possible that they just used grade 2 when they were packaged for sale. The thread is definitely 5/16-18 but some had a really tiny what looks like 10,7 marked on the heads, and I thought that made them metric, but they are 100% for sure 5/16-18. I don't have a clue what the tiny "looks like" 10,7 on the heads mean, other than maybe someone in China thought they could confuse someone. Really shiny and really soft. Could be 107 (no dot or comma), which I have never seen on a bolt head. Usually 5.8, 8.8, 10.9 and 12.9 are metric classes. SAE is normally none, three or eight hash marks.

 

[finn]

Just go to TSC and buy the hardware of your choice. The hardware in the bins is sold by the pound, and there’s probably a dollar or two per pound difference between grade 5 and grade 8.. I typically buy grade 8 and use it for everything, although grade 5 is more than adequate for most things.

I avoid grade 2 like the plague. Inevitability if you buy grade 2, you’ll need a grade 8 and all you have on hand is grade 2, so it’s off to town for a twenty mile round trip.

One thing to consider though is that bolted joints work by elongation during tightening. A grade 5 bolt or grade 8 bolt has a higher tensile strength than a grade two, so it’s not going to stretch as much. That means that the higher strength bolts effectively have a higher propensity to lose clamp load if the joint relaxes. Not a great explanation but I hope you get the idea.

I think all heavy equipment and automotive manufacturers abandoned lock washers decades ago. They don’t work. Use a thread locking compound like Loctite, or use a torque wrench.

I suspect that a lot of these homeowner yard products are finish assembled by a high school kid at the dealer or hardware store.

Husqvarna tillers are made by the Husqvarna group in Orangeburg, South Carolina.

MTD was sold to Stanley Black and Decker, and is a totally different company. I think their main plant is in Tennessee.

 

[T444e]

I completely understand the reason for Grade 2. However, when I noticed some grade 2 stuff from TSC, start to bend and stretch.... precursor to breaking in tightening up, I made the decision to start stocking Grade 5 in my garage.

I know what you mean, but I typically oversize the fastener to begin with. I really hate using 1/4 or 5/16 bolts, I typically use 3/8 and up.

 

[whateg01]

...

I suspect that a lot of these homeowner yard products are finish assembled by a high school kid at the dealer or hardware store.

In fact, some stores like Lowe's contract assembly out to a third party. My son works for one such company. He's pretty meticulous with his work. Probably too meticulous, tbh. Time is money. Some of the stuff he has to fix when he comes in that was done the day before is absolutely comical.

Other stores do have employees assembling stuff. I watched a couple young ladies at the local grocery store trying to put together a BBQ grill. I felt bad for them. They clearly were not mechanically inclined and were struggling. They were enthusiastically trying though.

 

[BurtEggley]

Q. Does TSC mix and match per pound - meaning can I get six or these, eight of these etc., toss in a bag and get billed for the total weight? Also what quality do they sell?


Finn commented in part -

Husqvarna tillers are made by the Husqvarna group in Orangeburg, South Carolina.

MTD was sold to Stanley Black and Decker, and is a totally different company. I think their main plant is in Tennessee.

info: Yes, I think the assembly and packaging is inferior these days. Maybe 30 - 40 years ago they were selling something to an individual - today they sell to markets (classes of individuals). The Sears Craftsman unit I bought in 1993 or so is a match more or less to the Husqvarna as to the drive train and pulleys. Even the shroud, standoff and acorn nut on the shroud is a complete match. AYP, MTD, Craftsman, Poulan and Husqvarna all appear to be built on the same frame and transmission plus pulley system. The handles and cable are different between years. I know that many of the misc part numbers cross over too. Photo examples below. These photos are from online and are models over 30 years. They all are sturdy units but the main difference is in either the engine, or the way the handle attaches. Some have Briggs and Stratton, some have Tecumseh, and some have Kohler engines. When I was looking, I found one like new Craftsman unit, like mine had been, for sale but it was in Oklahoma and we are in California. We didn't have any vacations planned this year involving a drive east or I would have bought the one in Oklahoma and brought it home. There was also a clean one in Texas but nothing within 600 miles of here. The Husqvarna was only an hour away up in the Sierra Foothills. Other than the bolts it has been fine. Was hard starting initially even with new gasoline, but running it the other day seems to have cleaned out whatever varnish had built up in the carb, and it starts first pull each time now. The bolt issue seems par for the course actually since many things are made inferior to how they were 30 - 50 years ago in general.

You can tell I miss the old Craftsman one. The soil here has a lot of clay and over about 15 years I wore the tines way down. I found a spot in the Central Valley that was a blacksmith shop where they had been repairing coulters, discs, plows, and other implements for a very long time. Took the tines to them, and they welded back (hard facing), sort of gold in color but it took carbide to sharpen it, and even with that it was almost so hard that a carbide burr would not cut it. But the tines worked great and never wore anymore. These tines are in too good of condition to do that but maybe I will take them to the shop if they are still around and see if they can improve them.

 

[yatg]

Q. Does TSC mix and match per pound - meaning can I get six or these, eight of these etc., toss in a bag and get billed for the total weight? Also what quality do they sell?

within the same grade.
bought some grade 5 bolts couple weeks ago, 6.49/lb

 

[BurtEggley]

within the same grade.
bought some grade 5 bolts couple weeks ago, 6.49/lb

sounds like TSC is the solution then. I'll get a list together and go over to see what they have.

 

[usa#1]

If you have a Rural King in your area, they have an extensive selections of bolts in grade 5 and grade 8 as well as metric 8.8 and 10.9 at much better prices than TSC. They are sold by the pound and you can mix and match within the same grade.

 

[BurtEggley]

no Rural King. But sounds like a fun store. There was a chain here sort of like that when I first moved back to Northern/Central California but they closed up. I think I still have a 35 year old yellow rain coat from there that I use sometimes to do yard work in winter. Has held up really well. I miss that era in the USA.

 

[Dodgeboy2020]

I'll add one thought, maybe not applicable in this case tho given you mentioned they were speced out as coarse thread, but I have had equipment over the years that have had issues with fasteners not staying tight that I would switch to fine thread of the same grade and that along with some blue or red lock tite seemed to resolve the issue of losening up in use.

 

[finn]

Q. Does TSC mix and match per pound - meaning can I get six or these, eight of these etc., toss in a bag and get billed for the total weight? Also what quality do they sell?


Finn commented in part -


info: Yes, I think the assembly and packaging is inferior these days. Maybe 30 - 40 years ago they were selling something to an individual - today they sell to markets (classes of individuals). The Sears Craftsman unit I bought in 1993 or so is a match more or less to the Husqvarna as to the drive train and pulleys. Even the shroud, standoff and acorn nut on the shroud is a complete match. AYP, MTD, Craftsman, Poulan and Husqvarna all appear to be built on the same frame and transmission plus pulley system. The handles and cable are different between years. I know that many of the misc part numbers cross over too. Photo examples below. These photos are from online and are models over 30 years. They all are sturdy units but the main difference is in either the engine, or the way the handle attaches. Some have Briggs and Stratton, some have Tecumseh, and some have Kohler engines. When I was looking, I found one like new Craftsman unit, like mine had been, for sale but it was in Oklahoma and we are in California. We didn't have any vacations planned this year involving a drive east or I would have bought the one in Oklahoma and brought it home. There was also a clean one in Texas but nothing within 600 miles of here. The Husqvarna was only an hour away up in the Sierra Foothills. Other than the bolts it has been fine. Was hard starting initially even with new gasoline, but running it the other day seems to have cleaned out whatever varnish had built up in the carb, and it starts first pull each time now. The bolt issue seems par for the course actually since many things are made inferior to how they were 30 - 50 years ago in general.

You can tell I miss the old Craftsman one. The soil here has a lot of clay and over about 15 years I wore the tines way down. I found a spot in the Central Valley that was a blacksmith shop where they had been repairing coulters, discs, plows, and other implements for a very long time. Took the tines to them, and they welded back (hard facing), sort of gold in color but it took carbide to sharpen it, and even with that it was almost so hard that a carbide burr would not cut it. But the tines worked great and never wore anymore. These tines are in too good of condition to do that but maybe I will take them to the shop if they are still around and see if they can improve them.

My Aerens rider is essentially a Husqvarna with different decals.

Since SBD bought the Craftsman name, and then bought the rest of MTD, I think they moved all Craftsman branded powered lawn and garden production in house.

Simultaneously Husqvarna announced they were getting out of the lower end private label end of that market. Don’t know what that means though.

 

[csp]

Graded bolts from the farm supply stores are **** IMO. I had a 1/2" bolt that broke on my receiver hitch that I replaced with one (grade 8, which is what the OEM bolts were) that came from a local farm store. Probably the same Chinese supplier that they all use. Two weeks later I heard it pop when it broke. I had another with me at the time and within a week that one broke. Note, there was a trailer that weighed under 7k attached the entire time that these were breaking. I finally went to my property that has a stock of Lawson bolt bins and used one of those. That was eight years ago and it's still holding strong.

 

[andyvh1959]

I recall years ago when I worked in engineering at Pierce Mfg (Class 8 fire trucks) we got a batch of Grade 5 and 8 hardware from some off-shore supplier, that was, well, ****. Not near the strength of US sourced hardware. Not sure if that is a common issue these days. When it matters, I buy Gr 5 or Gr 8 hardware at the local fastener specialists in Green Bay versus HD, Fleet Farm, ACE, etc. For that tiller project, quality Gr5 is plenty strong enough, applied properly and torqued.

Before I left Pierce in 1994 I bought a five gallon pail of various hardware, "floor sweepings" that I have been scavenging from since then. I may actually have to replenish my stock when I get into my 56 Dodge project.

 

[Steve_P]

I typically buy fasteners at McMaster Carr on the rare occasion I need something, but when I need something right now, I go to Ace Hardware which has an awesome selection. I also have a TSC local; I need to check out their fastener selection next time I go.

 

[nadogail]

Counterfeiting Fasteners is a real issue, for that reason i don't automatically trust fasteners from unverified sources.

 

[BurtEggley]

I'll add one thought, maybe not applicable in this case tho given you mentioned they were speced out as coarse thread, but I have had equipment over the years that have had issues with fasteners not staying tight that I would switch to fine thread of the same grade and that along with some blue or red lock tite seemed to resolve the issue of losening up in use.

thanks

 

[theoldwizard1]

On snowblowers, I replace the fasteners that hold the outer plastic covers with stainless so that they look nice.

Any others are just grade 5.