Taking bets on the cause of the problem…

[Oggy]

I hit the button for the overhead door into the garage this evening and it opened up no problem.

I hit the light switch and one led (T8 style, direct wired, in the middle of the garage), and one fixture of T8 fluorescent bulbs lit up. Confused, I shut them back off and flipped the switch again, same thing. I went to the breaker box, flipped it off and back on, now nothing works. No pops, hums, sparks, or anything else out of the ordinary beyond the lights not coming on.

The breaker box is a sub panel, feeds only the garage. There’s 4 breakers right now, one for the lights, one for the GDO, and two for receptacles. Receptacles work (atleast one set - I have a pool pump running), the gdo is ok. The receptacles have a gfci, but I’ve never seen one for the lights.

Power comes out of the panel, into the switch and feeds the first light fixture right over the garage door, from there, about 9 other fixtures are fed, each with 4 bulbs, all but 3 fixtures were converted to LED from fluorescent in April with the ballasts removed at that time.

Is it the switch? (I’ll start here tomorrow)

Is it my wiring? (Write up here: https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/threads/swap-out-ballast-for-led.545394/)

Is it something else?

What gets me is that the first time I flipped the switch a few of them lit up. What could allow fixtures in the middle to light up when they’re daisy chained but not the rest?

 

[Codyboy]

Bad connection.
What do I win?
Lol

 

[sparky 1971]

If one switch turns everything on and two fixtures did come on, it's not the switch even if nothing works now. It's a bad connection. Draw a map of the fixtures, showing the order in which the wiring goes through them starting at the switch. If there's a junction with wires going different directions to the fixtures, the problem is probably there.

 

[The Cobbler]

I'm guessing that the light that lit is the main line to the row of lights and there's a bad connection at that point .It just so happened to come on and then arced when you switched off & on and now it is caput .

edit @sparky 1971 was typing while I was. he has probably explained it better

 

[mm08822]

Bad connection.
What do I win?
Lol

Repair order. Start packing.

 

[Oggy]

If one switch turns everything on and two fixtures did come on, it's not the switch even if nothing works now. It's a bad connection. Draw a map of the fixtures, showing the order in which the wiring goes through them starting at the switch. If there's a junction with wires going different directions to the fixtures, the problem is probably there.

This makes sense. I couldn’t dig too deep last night, I didn’t want to be on a ladder at 9pm… I did follow the line from the switch to the first fixture, and it’s the one over the garage door, most like to be impacted by vibration, and every other light daisy chains off of it, one way or another. It’s possible something came loose in that fixture, I’ll start there when I get home.

 

[Chuckster in NJ]

Call a pro!……. If that doesn’t work call an exorcist.

Seriously, you have a loose connection and I highly suggest that you don’t ignore this issue.

 

[Codyboy]

Repair order. Start packing.

If it's anything like hurricane or ice storm trips we'd take at the POCO to help another POCO sign me up. 16 hours double x per day for 2 weeks pays for some good toys.
But you can keep the ice storm ****, never went on one of those. I don't like the cold that much.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

bad bulbs? where do i collect my money?

 

[Oggy]

Update: I opened the fixture that feeds every one after it, and the wires feeding the follow on fixtures were never touched. Also, all connections are still secure in the Wago connectors.(installed by an electrician 10+ years ago before I bought the place)

So, I can be reasonably certain it wasn’t my led conversion.



Three wires here…



3 at each of these. Everything else in that fixture feeds the tombstones, and being that all the lights are having problems, I’m not running that for troubleshooting yet.

I did try the lights again, and I was mistaken, the only lights trying to come on, were the fluorescent, with good ballasts.

Next up is to check the line voltage coming in. But I need to run for a new multimeter as mine is mia… (full disclosure, I’m not looking very hard for it, I want a new one anyway)

For those who said this is urgent, and to hire an electrician, I have one coming Monday to put in a new line for my pool pump, and the breaker is off until I find the problem.

 

[PCustoms]

I did try the lights again, and I was mistaken, the only lights trying to come on, were the fluorescent, with good ballasts.

I'd say you've got bad bulbs or bad ballast

 

[Codyboy]

This makes sense. I couldn’t dig too deep last night, I didn’t want to be on a ladder at 9pm… I did follow the line from the switch to the first fixture, and it’s the one over the garage door, most like to be impacted by vibration, and every other light daisy chains off of it, one way or another. It’s possible something came loose in that fixture, I’ll start there when I get home.

Just reread this post.
Is it possible the lights are powered by the GDO outlet and the light switch is on a switch leg that goes back to the lights?

Or the GDO light circuit is powering the lights with a switch leg (light switch) in line.

ETA
Also if not this then why even mention the GDO in the first sentence in the OP?

 

[Oggy]

Just reread this post.
Is it possible the lights are powered by the GDO outlet and the light switch is on a switch leg that goes back to the lights?

Or the GDO light circuit is powering the lights with a switch leg (light switch) in line.

ETA
Also if not this then why even mention the GDO in the first sentence in the OP?

GDO is on a different circuit for sure. It was mentioned only because it introduces vibration to something that would otherwise be completely stationary.

 

[Oggy]

New multimeter came with a new outlet tester with a voltmeter on it… interesting results…

Panel for reference (off is the lights):


South receptacles:


Looks good.

North receptacles:


Looks a little low…

The panel:


And the other leg:

Hmm one leg looks a little low.

From here I’m going to the source…



Already removed the panel cover, right side is the house, left side is the garage…

Right side (house):




Left side (garage):





It appears the voltage drop happens in the line from the main panel at the meter to the sub panel in the garage (a little tug test makes it appear the line is still tight).

When the yard was being leveled the operator did “find” the electrical conduit, but a check at that time of the panel didn’t indicate anything had come come loose, everything has worked until now, and that was early May, which makes it difficult to say that’s the root cause.

 

[PCustoms]

When the yard was being leveled the operator did “find” the electrical conduit, but a check at that time of the panel didn’t indicate anything had come come loose, everything has worked until now, and that was early May, which makes it difficult to say that’s the root cause.

Is it in conduit end to end?

I'd say pull it out, but I bet that's not going to work...

 

[Oggy]

It is in conduit end to end, and the excavator never kinked or broke the conduit, so that is a possible solution. I’m going to work from home on Monday and let the electrician know what I found. It’s possible I missed something at the garage that he would see.

 

[PCustoms]

It is in conduit end to end, and the excavator never kinked or broke the conduit, so that is a possible solution. I’m going to work from home on Monday and let the electrician know what I found. It’s possible I missed something at the garage that he would see.

There's some tests that can be run, but it sounds like you're more comfortable calling in a pro.

 

[Oggy]

There's some tests that can be run, but it sounds like you're more comfortable calling in a pro.

If I knew what to check (and have the tools to), I’d be willing to look further.

The comfort calling a pro comes from me already having one scheduled to run a line for the new pool.

I enjoy troubleshooting, and have pinpointed mechanical issues the chemical engineers at work overlooked. I’m at a point now where I’ve reached my knowledge limits though.

 

[PCustoms]

If I knew what to check (and have the tools to), I’d be willing to look further.

The comfort calling a pro comes from me already having one scheduled to run a line for the new pool.

I enjoy troubleshooting, and have pinpointed mechanical issues the chemical engineers at work overlooked. I’m at a point now where I’ve reached my knowledge limits though.

Well the first thing I would do would be to kill the main panel for a few minutes, pull the breaker that feeds the shop and check the buss (as long as you've killed the panel!!). That is likely fine, so From there I'd check the connection at that breaker.

If I still haven't found anything I'd power up the main, keep the shop breaker off and go check the shop end to ensure everything is good

Again, for safety, do all this on a dead panel.

Somewhere that leg has a problem. Hopefully it's not underground

 

[TRWham]

I am biased to look for a goofy neutral when voltage is not as expected.

 

[PCustoms]

I am biased to look for a goofy neutral when voltage is not as expected.

Wouldn't that drive the other leg high?

 

[TRWham]

Wouldn't that drive the other leg high?

Not if it's the branch neutral. What I mean is we tend to check connections on the line, but perhaps not the neutral. The current must get there and back, so the voltage drop could be on either side.

 

[dave*99]

Photos 4 and 5 in post 14 appear to show 90V L1-N and 120V L2-N in the garage subpanel.

 

[PCustoms]

Photos 4 and 5 in post 14 appear to show 90V L1-N and 120V L2-N in the garage subpanel.

And?

 

[Codyboy]

Is that another set of wires into the conduit? Looks like a set that's tie wrapped that goes up farther in the panel. Or is that the just the neutral and ground wire for the garage feed?
The reason being if there is another set and it goes elsewhere then the conduit in the ground would have to be open.

To the other findings is that 90 volts with or without any load?
An open in that conductor is very likely . If you apply a load to it I'd bet it will drop to mostly 0. Which would definitely be an open.

The excavator may or may not have damaged the conduit and cable in another place than the place he told you about.
Or could be a coincidence.

 

[Codyboy]

Wouldn't that drive the other leg high?

Yes it would. But OP didn't provide any Line to Line readings. But I doubt he's getting 105, 105, 210 at the garage. So if a neutral issue it could be showing that 90 + 120 = 210.

But that's very doubtful. I think its an open in that leg.

 

[Chuckster in NJ]

Wouldn't that drive the other leg high?

TRUE! Crazy high voltages would be present…….. Not 120 volts PLUS the voltage would vary on the loads going on and off.
At the 90 and 120 volt readings I suspect a high resistance connection…….. Loose bug/lug, failing wire, or maybe a transformer going bad.

 

[Codyboy]

TRUE! Crazy high voltages would be present…….. Not 120 volts PLUS the voltage would vary on the loads going on and off.
At the 90 and 120 volt readings I suspect a high resistance connection…….. Loose bug/lug, failing wire, or maybe a transformer going bad.

You bring up a good point . Not sure exactly where the probe was placed when OP took those readings. If they are on the breaker lug or the wire itself.
I always will check it on both because sometimes it is right there at the lug to wire connection. Lug appears tight but is actually froze up because it was never properly tightened and the heat then eventual arc that occurs creates an insulation between the wire and lug.

 

[Chuckster in NJ]

Another "thing" that I never do while troubleshooting THE FIRST TIME (on 120/240 systems) is to check voltages with a digital meter, I always use my dependable WIGGY.…… Once I determine the presence of voltage with the wiggy solenoid "pulling in" I will proceed to use a digital meter to check the readings if I have a problem.

BTW! Call me "old" but I am still a fan of my Simpson 260 multimeter for reading voltage.

 

[dave*99]

BTW! Call me "old"

You are old. I couldn't leave you hanging on that one.
BTW there are modern DMMs with a low Z position to avoid those false readings you are thinking of.

 

[TRWham]

Photos 4 and 5 in post 14 appear to show 90V L1-N and 120V L2-N in the garage subpanel.

I did not originally see that photo of 90 V in the panel. Given that, and the 90 V on the receptacle, it seems the issue is in that line from the main to the sub and everything on L1 in the sub should be seeing 90 V.

 

[PCustoms]

Is that another set of wires into the conduit? Looks like a set that's tie wrapped that goes up farther in the panel. Or is that the just the neutral and ground wire for the garage feed?
The reason being if there is another set and it goes elsewhere then the conduit in the ground would have to be open.

Good question. Looking at that pic again, what is on the wire, circled in blue?

 

[Codyboy]

Good question. Looking at that pic again, what is on the wire, circled in blue?

Green tape or green wire nut?
cant realy tell.

 

[Oggy]

Well the first thing I would do would be to kill the main panel for a few minutes, pull the breaker that feeds the shop and check the buss (as long as you've killed the panel!!). That is likely fine, so From there I'd check the connection at that breaker.

If I still haven't found anything I'd power up the main, keep the shop breaker off and go check the shop end to ensure everything is good

Again, for safety, do all this on a dead panel.

Somewhere that leg has a problem. Hopefully it's not underground

Unfortunately I’m not going to be able to pull this off at the moment, I’ll see what I can do later this weekend.

You bring up a good point . Not sure exactly where the probe was placed when OP took those readings. If they are on the breaker lug or the wire itself.
I always will check it on both because sometimes it is right there at the lug to wire connection. Lug appears tight but is actually froze up because it was never properly tightened and the heat then eventual arc that occurs creates an insulation between the wire and lug.

I can’t get to the wires themselves easily, so I’m probing the lug itself.

Yes it would. But OP didn't provide any Line to Line readings. But I doubt he's getting 105, 105, 210 at the garage. So if a neutral issue it could be showing that 90 + 120 = 210.

But that's very doubtful. I think its an open in that leg.

Line to line I’m getting 217 (low side is reading 99v right now)

Is that another set of wires into the conduit? Looks like a set that's tie wrapped that goes up farther in the panel. Or is that the just the neutral and ground wire for the garage feed?
The reason being if there is another set and it goes elsewhere then the conduit in the ground would have to be open.

To the other findings is that 90 volts with or without any load?
An open in that conductor is very likely . If you apply a load to it I'd bet it will drop to mostly 0. Which would definitely be an open.

The excavator may or may not have damaged the conduit and cable in another place than the place he told you about.
Or could be a coincidence.

90 volts is with mo load, I turned both breakers off.

Also, I get 90volts to the ground.

You did catch the extra cable in the panel though. I hadn’t seen or noticed that before, and it made me look a little harder at the garage panel:



I noticed that there are 4 circuits in the garage, and only bare wires on the ground bar.

I also noticed this guy hiding here:

Although he doesn’t provide any voltage to the ground or neutral, he does show voltage when crossed with the two hot legs.

 

[PCustoms]

Unfortunately I’m not going to be able to pull this off at the moment, I’ll see what I can do later this weekend.



I can’t get to the wires themselves easily, so I’m probing the lug itself.




Line to line I’m getting 217 (low side is reading 99v right now)



90 volts is with mo load, I turned both breakers off.

Also, I get 90volts to the ground.

You did catch the extra cable in the panel though. I hadn’t seen or noticed that before, and it made me look a little harder at the garage panel:



I noticed that there are 4 circuits in the garage, and only bare wires on the ground bar.

I also noticed this guy hiding here:

Although he doesn’t provide any voltage to the ground or neutral, he does show voltage when crossed with the two hot legs.

Who wired the panel, and when?

Did excavator have access to the panel?

Sure looks like they reefed on the conduit, stretched the feed into the garage main breaker and cutoff the ground.

Look at the conduit next to the cutoff wire...

 

[Codyboy]

You have no neutral to the subpanel.
Excavator damaged more than he said he did.

Yeah thay neutral was pulled tight enough it burned (friction) into the conduit and broke.

 

[PCustoms]

You have no neutral to the subpanel.

Sure about that?

 

[Codyboy]

Sure about that?

Well no not 100% sure but it looks that way.
Since I'm not there actually looking at it.

It looks like the ground wire was taped white to be the new neutral since the actual neutral was pulled in two and sucked down the conduit..

No idea how that ground is terminated in the main panel.

But I think there is more going on with 217 L to L.
I may have not been too far off with the 105, 105, 210 post earlier.

Buy troubleshooting over the internet kind of ***** without good pics of the whole panel . Both panels.

You can see that neutral lug has scarring where the neutral was pulled tighter than ****'s hat band and broke. Not sure why the conduit is rubbed on the right side though when the lug is on the left.

Need more pics.

 

[PCustoms]

Well no not 100% sure but it looks that way.
Since I'm not there actually looking at it.

It looks like the ground wire was taped white to be the new neutral since the actual neutral was pulled in two and sucked down the conduit..

No idea how that ground is terminated in the main panel.

But I think there is more going on with 217 L to L.
I may have not been too far off with the 105, 105, 210 post earlier.

Buy troubleshooting over the internet kind of ***** without good pics of the whole panel . Both panels.

You can see that neutral lug has scarring where the neutral was pulled tighter than ****'s hat band and broke. Not sure why the conduit is rubbed on the right side though when the lug is on the left.

Need more pics.

I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure you're way off. The wire taped white and landed on the neutral lug is and likely always was the neutral.

His panel has no ground, the broken wire is clearly smaller then the neutra and is taped green on the other end. The reason the conduit is rubbed is from where the ground yanked out of the ground lug.

I'd question the integrity of all terminals on each end at this point. That 100A in the sub may be damaged from the strain.

 

[Oggy]

Who wired the panel, and when?

Did excavator have access to the panel?

Sure looks like they reefed on the conduit, stretched the feed into the garage main breaker and cutoff the ground.

Look at the conduit next to the cutoff wire...

Panel was wired when the previous owner had the garage put in, before I bought the house in 2016. They have their sticker in the panel in the house but I’m not sure if they’re still in business.

The excavator operator only had access with my wife there, he checked the two hot legs and the neutral, probably never saw the last wire in the conduit. He’s not someone whose integrity I would immediately question, it would be an honest mistake.

Situation *****, it’s not a short run, and I know the electrician wasn’t planning on this, so we’ll see how it goes Monday…