We keep blowing fuses

[sparky 1971]

I was involved in the electrical trade since 1968 and the "known" Romex wire was no different than today.
EG : 10-2 has white and black insulated wires and a ground AND 10-3 has white, black and red insulated wires and a ground wire

HOWEVER! This is what a 12-4 romex cable looks like so there is a real thing.…….. I have seen this used on a few jobs.

I've seen plenty of 14/3, 12/3, 10/3, and 8/3 with no ground, some of it installed as recently as the '80s. My house has a 1988 addition on it and 14/3 no ground is used for the travellers.

 

[sparky 1971]

^^^ I'm out of edits^^^. The three wire (without ground) was new enough to have a jacket similar to what NM has today only black or white, it would have black, red, and white TW wire in it and a metric ton of paper wrapped around everything. I had some 8/3 given to me about a month ago but I took it in with the scrap.

 

[sparky 1971]

I was involved in the electrical trade since 1968 and the "known" Romex wire was no different than today.
EG : 10-2 has white and black insulated wires and a ground AND 10-3 has white, black and red insulated wires and a ground wire, on and on!

HOWEVER! This is what a 12-4 romex cable looks like so there is a real thing. I have seen this used on a few jobs…….. ONLY the insulated wires are counted and NOT the ground.

I know what 12/4 is, I've seen it but never used it but I have run a bunch of 12/4 MC cable. What I was referring to with four conductor was two hots, neutral, and ground.

 

[Bert_]

Was before my time but there was a period when both were available. You could buy romex with or without ground.

The 3 wire range and dryer circuits were only allowed to originate from a service panel.

 

[sparky 1971]

Was before my time but there was a period when both were available. You could buy romex with or without ground.

The 3 wire range and dryer circuits were only allowed to originate from a service panel.

And there wasn't a reason to buy it with a ground for a range or dryer prior to the adoption of the 1996 NEC. That actually makes sense, that's why the w/ground was added. I always remember using it with a ground before the 96, but we shoved the ground to the back of the box.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

When I see a white wire it goes to the neutral bus……. Green or Bare goes to the ground bus.

except in a main with combined neutral/ground bar?

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Again in case you didnt understand this
If a NEMA 10-30 receptacle is fed with 10-2w/ground it does not meet the requirements of 120/240.

yup because it was wired incorrectly however the appliance will still function, running neutral current over the bare ground.

 

[dave*99]

a 3 wire dryer plug is not 120/240
you are using the ground conductor as a neutral.
Is the existing ground conductor full size and insulated?

and I can guess that 99% of the dryers before they made 4 wire were wired with 10/2 with ground
hence no insulated 3rd wire

because its valid.
Many dryers and ranges were using grounding conductors as current carrying conductors,hence the requirement for 4 wire systems

Again in case you didnt understand this
If a NEMA 10-30 receptacle is fed with 10-2w/ground it does not meet the requirements of 120/240.

So you do understand 10/2 WG is improper for a 10-30 receptacle, but think 99% of them were wired that way?
But a 3 wire dryer plug (not a receptacle but a plug) is not 120/240?

 

[PCustoms]

Didn't someone just get a temp ban for arguing about this ?

 

[Chuckster in NJ]

except in a main with combined neutral/ground bar?

He was talking about a SUB PANEL in post #76………………. Please keep up!

 

[mm08822]

He was talking about a SUB PANEL in post #76………………. Please keep up!

Post 76 didn't keep up with post 33.

 

[mm08822]

Didn't someone just get a temp ban for arguing about this ?

If anything, it should be a new thread about 3 vs 4 wire connection.

Leave the guy alone who simply re-purposed an abandoned 30A fuse pullout and used it for a properly sized temp circuit.

 

[sparky 1971]

Didn't someone just get a temp ban for arguing about this ?

It's amazing how some people will dig their heels in and argue about how wrong they think they aren't.

 

[Chuckster in NJ]

It's amazing how some people will dig their heels in and argue about how wrong they think they aren't.

I dealt with people like this every day for 30 years as a code official.……… The best ones are the ones that read the code book and try to convince you that they are right and code is wrong.

 

[sparky 1971]

And, if you were to look at the back of a flush mount 10-30R, you would see that the slot from the neutral does not have strap bonding it the the yoke. Therefore, it's not a ground. Fortunately for you, I can't find a picture of the back of one online and I don't have one in my stock.

I just went through the archives out in the shop and I actually found one.

Again in case you didnt understand this
If a NEMA 10-30 receptacle is fed with 10-2w/ground it does not meet the requirements of 120/240.

Here you go. Why would one want to connect a ground wire to a terminal that is clearly marked WHITE ?

Also, do you see that there is no strap from the terminal to the yoke?

 

[sparky 1971]

I left a picture out. Here's the box which clearly states what is in it. I'm gonna be hearing crickets from the critics about this.

 

[sparky 1971]

I dealt with people like this every day for 30 years as a code official.……… The best ones are the ones that read the code book and try to convince you that they are right and code is wrong.

I am looking forward to hearing about how the device and box are both marked wrong in the above photos. The damned fools at P&S don't even know what they are making.

 

[mm08822]

Including the mold is wrong and so is the screw color......

 

[sparky 1971]

Including the mold is wrong and so is the screw color......

It identifies as white.

 

[mm08822]

It identifies as white.

Call P&S white away.

 

[sparky 1971]

Call P&S white away.

As buried as it was, I've probably had it since I moved in 2016 so I doubt I'm going to use it. I think I'll return it to the supply house as defective.

 

[sparky 1971]

Including the mold is wrong and so is the screw color......

I found another. This is not the same one I posted earlier, but modified. To use a paint pen to color it in would be dishonest, hackish, and downright treasonous. I would never try to fool anyone in such a treacherous way.

 

[dave*99]

Since we are now on the topic of dryers with combined neutral & ground, how does this work/affect when on a sub panel where the ground & neutral are isolated?

If you are asking how a 3 wire connection on a dryer 10-30 receptacle would be connected to a sub panel, I think those dryer receptacles had to be wired to the main panel. The experts will confirm or correct this please.

 

[sparky 1971]

If you are asking how a 3 wire connection on a dryer 10-30 receptacle would be connected to a sub panel, I think those dryer receptacles had to be wired to the main panel. The experts will confirm or correct this please.

Correct if it was SE cable but I'm sure plenty o' dryers and ranges were connected to sub panels, probably by the same guys that used 10/2 with ground and still argue to this day that it was the right way to do it... I may have done it, but I was young enough when no ground was present for dryer circuits that I would have just been doing what I was told.

 

[mm08822]

NEC 70 versions over the years haven't changed much regarding Grounding of Frames of Electric Ranges and Electric Clothes Dryers.......
1968 version 250-60
1971 version 250-60
1993 version 250-60
1996 version 250.60 added the 3-wire only applies to existing ckts in use. New wiring requires 4 wire.
2023 version 250.140 includes the grandfathered 3-wire clause.

I'm thinking a lot of "that's the way you do it" teaching got passed down through a few generations.
Now seeing the code, it seems like blasphemy.

1968



1996


2023

 

[mm08822]

I found another. This is not the same one I posted earlier, but modified. To use a paint pen to color it in would be dishonest, hackish, and downright treasonous. I would never try to fool anyone in such a treacherous way.

Loose your green paint pen in TX?

 

[mm08822]

If you are asking how a 3 wire connection on a dryer 10-30 receptacle would be connected to a sub panel, I think those dryer receptacles had to be wired to the main panel. The experts will confirm or correct this please.

Already mentioned as such in post 33 and now in post 105.

 

[sparky 1971]

Loose your green paint pen in TX?

I don't know what you mean? I have never owned a paint pen. I found that as is, NOS, in my shop.

 

[mm08822]

I don't know what you mean? I have never owned a paint pen. I found that as is, NOS, in my shop.

T'was a joke......converting an gec to an egc.

 

[sparky 1971]

T'was a joke......converting an gec to an egc.

The guilt is killing me so I have to come clean. I did have a green paint pen in TX and I did lose it when I moved away. It's what I used to convert 10-30R's into 6-30R's and 10-50's into 6-50's. How did you know? I've been hiding that for 27 years.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

It identifies as white.

no no. it identifies as copper color (as in bare ground)... sorry i just had to

 

[wyliesdiesels]

If you are asking how a 3 wire connection on a dryer 10-30 receptacle would be connected to a sub panel, I think those dryer receptacles had to be wired to the main panel. The experts will confirm or correct this please.

it was confirmed in previous posts.

 

[theoldwizard1]

as far as know, the 3 wire for driers was a US thing ,

Very common in the US until they changed the code (70s ?).

I do remember as a kid our stoves & driers were hard wired , there was no plug & receptacles . I think it started to come in in the very early 70's

What did they use from the wall to the appliance ? Flexible conduit with stranded wire inside ?

 

[The Cobbler]

What did they use from the wall to the appliance ? Flexible conduit with stranded wire inside ?

Our stove when I was a kid was BX from the panel to the stove. never had a drier until about 1980 and it had a plug

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Very common in the US until they changed the code (70s ?).

What did they use from the wall to the appliance ? Flexible conduit with stranded wire inside ?

the code changed in '96 as has already been said numerous times in this thread