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The 1/4” Square Drive Thread

Dave455

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A little while back, I started the 1/2” square drive thread, as I didn’t think the tools always get the consideration they deserve.

It had occurred to me, that 1/4” square drive sees a lot more use, and the uses are often quite demanding, so here’s a thread to share experiences.

I’ll start out by listing the factors that I find important, especially with regard to 1/4“ drive.

1) Accurate sizing. If you’re undoing a 15/16 nut, a bit of slop in the socket is neither here nor there. But that’s not so in 1/4” drive. If you have, say, a 5.5mm nut, maybe even made of brass, you only need to deform it by a tiny amount for a socket to slip. Good accurate fit is therefore essential.

2) Good steel and heat treatment. You have to retain the good fit mentioned above. Tools from decent manufacturers will be of good steel and suitably hardened. I have come across some that are not though. Many Taiwanese tools from the 1980’s were quite poor in this regard.

3) Decent finish. Your tools need to stay rust free, and do so despite getting the odd knock. Decent chrome shouldn’t be a problem, but I have found otherwise decent tools that have had issues. Some (by no means all) Japanese tools from the 1980’s tend to flake chrome in a way that better ones don’t.

4) Strength. This is more important than ever before as we push the limits of what 1/4 drive is capable of. Most good manufacturers offer tools that are strong enough, but I have encountered some that are not.

5) Good fit of the parts. This is the area where some, otherwise decent, manufacturers seem to struggle. It’s not that hard to get right.

Firstly, you need to have some sort of detent in the socket for the ball to lock into. It can either be a simple drilled hole, forming an interior detent, or a machined detent. Either way, it does need to be right. Some manufacturers drill a hole in the socket, but make it far too big, allowing the socket to move.

Here’s a manufacturer that get’s it right - this KoKen socket has a correctly drilled locking hole, and a machined detent. Both are perfect and either can be used.
IMG_2169.jpeg

Secondly, parts such as extensions need to be matched to the sockets they are to be used with. Better ones will have a positive lip that the socket is retained rigidly to. This Hazet shows how it should be done.
IMG_2170.jpeg

The resultant socket and extension pairing are incredibly rigid.
IMG_2171.jpeg

This Wurth Zebra extension shows how not to do it. The shape of the extension almost prohibits a decent fit, unless the sockets match exactly, which they do not. These Wurth tools wobble, and don’t lock at all rigidly.
IMG_2172.jpeg

The shape probably allows relatively easy mixing of parts from different manufacturers, but that's never ideal. Note the different finishes on these different parts - bith Wurth branded.
IMG_2173.jpeg

Anyway, on to the tools. Over the next few days I’ll post some tools that I have found meet all the requirements above, and generally stood the test of time. I might post a few that don’t…!

Feel free to post 1/4” drive tools that have worked for you too.
 
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Dave455

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Here are some 1/4 drive tools I’ve had for many years.

My Dad bought me this “Draper” (British importer / distributor) branded set, made in Japan in the 1970’s. Wish I knew the maker.

He bought it solely on the basis that the tools felt decent. He was right - I’ve used it for at least four decades.

The “bi square” sockets are invaluable for adjusting drum brakes.
IMG_2174.jpeg

When I needed metric sockets I went out and bought Britool (British manufacturer long gone - but very decent).
IMG_2176.jpeg

These are lovely and I have used them a lot. These Britool tools were slightly more hefty, for their overall size, than those from other makers. Note the thickness of the extension.

Unfortunately, for those with OCD, a lot of my 1/4” drive just evolved naturally - a mix of tools from different makers - but all are good quality and all work well together.
IMG_2175.jpeg
 

four.cycle

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This Wurth Zebra extension shows how not to do it.
Well.... if they're doing it all wrong, so has most every American tool manufacturer since year one.
I don't think you'll find any extensions with that "shoulder" on them among American makers' products until you get up to 3/8" or 1/2" drive. (I could well be mistaken.)
You did know we do have a 57-page thread of 1/4" drive Socket Sets, right? :unsure:
 
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Dave455

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Well.... if they're doing it all wrong, so has most every American tool manufacturer since year one.
I don't think you'll find any extensions with that "shoulder" on them among American makers' products until you get up to 3/8" or 1/2" drive. (I could well be mistaken.)
You did know we do have a 57-page thread of 1/4" drive Socket Sets, right? :unsure:
The difference with the American tools, is firstly that the shoulder angle is much steeper. Here, a Snap On.
IMG_2177.jpeg

Secondly, the male shoulder angle connects to a matching recess, making a more solid connection.
IMG_2178.jpeg

Having said that, the Hazet, KoKen, and even the old Britool lock together more securely than some American tools.

The Wurth are about the worst that I have encountered for rigidity.

With regard to the other thread, yes totally aware of that and enjoy reading it. But it’s essentially for vintage sets, whereas here I’m more concerned with current tools.

I shouldn’t have kicked it off with vintage ones, but the reader might as well start where I did.
 
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Dave455

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When I first bought metric sockets, I still had the (incorrect) mindset that 1/4” drive only really needed to be used on fasteners that were smaller than the sizes my 3/8” drive tools extended down to.

This is of course, totally wrong, and as I acquired more modern vehicles, I soon found this out. I needed some bigger sizes in 1/4” drive, and with Britool by then effectively gone, I opted for Stahlwille.

That turned out to be a good decision. Stahlwille may not be well known in the U.S. but they make a very comprehensive range of tools, and they do 1/4” drive very well.

They score quite highly on all the points I listed. The rigidity isn’t quite as good as some, but it’s acceptable. Here’s most of what I ended up with.
IMG_2179.jpeg

I really like the finish. It’s a genuine satin chrome, and it’s very durable. You can use these tools without any concerns about damaging the polish!

Owning tools in other drive sizes from Stahlwille, it’s obvious that they take more care with the finish in 1/4” drive.
IMG_2182.jpeg

Other things I like are the overall smooth shape of the parts - no corners to get caught up or cause injury - although this feature is not as noticeable as on the bigger drive sizes.

I also like the option of the all metal handles on the ratchets. There is a comfort grip option, but I prefer these.

Things I don’t like are that the fine tooth “N” series ratchets have plastic backplates. This is unacceptable I feel.

There is also a very limited range of (basically one) long handle ratchet. It’s not as long as some, it’s only available with a comfort grip, and there is no extra long option at all.

Having said all that, I use these tools extensively. If you think they are clean, you’re right. I‘m quite fastidious about cleaning tools after use, especially in 1/4” drive. The only tool I don’t use much is the spinner handle. It’s a hard (ish ) handle but I never really liked the shape or feel.
 
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whateg01

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A little movement in the joint between the socket and the extension makes no difference in how the tool actually works. It might trigger some peoples OCD, but OCD doesn't turn bolts, tools do.
Sometimes that little bit of slop is the difference between getting a socket so the way on a fastener and having to try another tool.
 

four.cycle

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^ I've never experienced a situation where the socket "wobbling" at the end of the extension (minimal as it may have been) posing any kind of impediment.

I just pulled out my little 1/4" "user" kit, which contains no fewer than five extensions - one Craftsman, and four Indestro of various lengths.
There is a bit of "wiggle" on all on all of them, but again, I've never found that to be a problem - the detent balls in the extensions hold the sockets securely.

and...

whateg01 said:
Sometimes that little bit of slop is the difference between getting a socket so the way on a fastener and having to try another tool.

^ THIS. And I know I've run into this one assembling mowers - sometimes that "wibble-wobble" action is what allows me to get the socket down on the head of a bolt that's down in a hole... sometimes it's not always a straight shot.

Funny you brought this up... of all the tools I have here, I think I've only seen that "shoulder" action on maybe two or three 1/2" drive extensions, and they were older specimens - the newer ones by the same makers don't have that feature. (Thorsen and Indestro)
 
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Dave455

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A few years back I was working away from base, and was asked to take on an extra task. I needed SAE tools but didn’t have any with me, so was allowed to make free with the company credit card.

As things turned out, the MAC truck was first on the scene and had all I needed. I bought these 1/4 drive tools, and only ended up using about two sizes, but I decided I quite like them.
IMG_2198.jpeg

I like the sets - comprehensive, and no skips. The overall quality, and particularly the fit, are very good. I like the metal socket trays, and I like the extensions (particularly the knurling).
IMG_2199.jpeg

I love the chroming. I know folks here rate the finish on Nepros tools highly, but MAC chrome is pretty decent too, and probably (controversially) better than most non Nepros Japanese tools.

I also love the spinner handle - so much so that I bought another for my everyday box. Sadly, I think these are discontinued now.

The only downside is that Mac were not able to match the handle styles on the ratchet, and the hinge handle. I assume the latter are bought in.

One thing for the U.K. readers - these MAC ratchets are very similar in size, shape, and style to the old (pre James Neill) Britool ratchets. If you have a worn one and no repair kit, these make a great substitute!
 

f121

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Things I don’t like are that the fine tooth “N” series ratchets have plastic backplates. This is unacceptable I feel.

How have you found the durability of these? I’ve heard bad reports on Stahlwille 1/4” durability, used professionally they needed warranty every 1-2 months. Swapped out to SO and the failures stopped.
 
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Dave455

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How have you found the durability of these? I’ve heard bad reports on Stahlwille 1/4” durability, used professionally they needed warranty every 1-2 months. Swapped out to SO and the failures stopped.
In honesty, when I first acquired the Stahlwille I had the older style ratchet with the coarse teeth, and the metal backplate. I had a fair amount of use out of that tool and it seemed to be fine.

Here’s the bit ratchet of the same style.
IMG_2200.jpegIMG_2201.jpeg

I have not had the “N” series ratchet’s that long, and for a variety of reasons (mainly having so many alternatives) have not used them so much, so only time will tell.

I do know of a few folks in the aviation world who have been “issued” Stahlwille ratchet’s, and they generally don’t like them.
 
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Dave455

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^ love the knurling at the top end of the extension.
Yes, that knurling at the top end really works in 1/4” drive. Mac (and KoKen now) both do this very well.

Note how the female end of the Mac extensions are actually slightly oversized, compared to say the Stahlwille, so you also have enough to grip.
 

YesIHaveAHammer

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Firstly, you need to have some sort of detent in the socket for the ball to lock into. It can either be a simple drilled hole, forming an interior detent, or a machined detent
My Stahlwille extensions have detents on 3 sides and a hole on the other. What would be the reasoning for that?

Some manufacturers drill a hole in the socket, but make it far too big, allowing the socket to move.
My Stahlwille extensions are a looser fit when the ball is in the hole, rather than one of the detents.

The detent in the Wera 8784 bit adaptor is too big; it's loose on everything I have. Maybe it's ok on Wera males.
 

mattstevens

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My Stahlwille extensions have detents on 3 sides and a hole on the other. What would be the reasoning for that?
For use with tools that use a locking pin instead of a retention ball. One example is the Stahlwille 3117 1/4 hex to square adapter, this uses a pin to more securely retain the socket when using with a power tool.
 

YesIHaveAHammer

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For use with tools that use a locking pin instead of a retention ball. One example is the Stahlwille 3117 1/4 hex to square adapter, this uses a pin to more securely retain the socket when using with a power tool.
Thanks, I was aware of their QuickRelease range. Is it required to line both parts up and use the hole, or only if you want maximum security?
 
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Dave455

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My Stahlwille extensions have detents on 3 sides and a hole on the other. What would be the reasoning for that?


My Stahlwille extensions are a looser fit when the ball is in the hole, rather than one of the detents.

The detent in the Wera 8784 bit adaptor is too big; it's loose on everything I have. Maybe it's ok on Wera males.
Yes, all my Stahlwille extensions and sockets have both the hole and the detents.

The reason for the hole depends on the tools. Some of the older British sockets use the hole as a way to form a sort of detent. The hole tends to be smaller.

The modern ones tend to use it so that the socket can be locked on, but I only really see this done with industrial tools. I assume that’s the case here.

On my Stahlwille extensions and sockets, there isn’t really much difference if I use the hole or the detent. In either case there is a bit more slop than I would like, but it is acceptable.

The Wera sockets seem to duplicate the hole / detent of the Stahlwille, and used on Stahlwille extensions the slop is comparable.

Used with a Wera extension the combination is much more rigid, which suggests that the locking ball protrudes slightly more from the Wera extension.

For some reason, the Wera 8784 bit adaptor has a bigger hole than the sockets. It is very loose on the Stahlwille extensions, and loose even on the Wera. If I align the locking ball with the detent side however, it is much more positive, and perfectly acceptable.

This is actually one of my favourite bit holders, as it holds the bits so rigidly.
 
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Dave455

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Thanks, I was aware of their QuickRelease range. Is it required to line both parts up and use the hole, or only if you want maximum security?
The locking pin style, and the quick release, are totally different.

The quick release tools use a regular ball detent that is locked in the extended position till you push the button. It csn be used with the hole or any detent.

The tools that use the locking pin, such as the 3117 adaptor mentioned by mattstevens need to be used with sockets that have the hole.
IMG_2210.jpeg
 
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Higgins

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This is amazing topic and timely subject.
At 78 in my final garage. Two large tool boxes with tools acquired across 50 yrs.

To make things worse I traveled internationally with my tools installing equipment.

So now I have to sort all this stuff and put some sanity in the project. To make matters worse, the two large tool boxes turned overs several times during moves so you can imagine the mess I have on my hands…

Now I’m looking for socket organizers to start sorting things out !! 🤞
 
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Dave455

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This is amazing topic and timely subject.
At 78 in my final garage. Two large tool boxes with tools acquired across 50 yrs.

To make things worse I traveled internationally with my tools installing equipment.

So now I have to sort all this stuff and put some sanity in the project. To make matters worse, the two large tool boxes turned overs several times during moves so you can imagine the mess I have on my hands…

Now I’m looking for socket organizers to start sorting things out !! 🤞
Suspect that was supposed to be in the “toolbox organisers” thread - but no matter - we share your frustration.

I hope I will never have to move, but if I do every tool gets removed from it’s box, crated, and replaced on arrival.

The reason is that I can imagine the mess you are having to cope with…! Probably some damage too?

My Grandfather, despite possessing a lot of tools, never stored anything in a box that wasn’t portable, even if two men were needed. I think he’d had to move too much around over the years, to do anything different!

My experiences, both industrially and privately, have always been that time spent on organisation is seldom wasted.
 
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Dave455

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I said at the start, that I might post a few tools that never quite lived up to expectations, so here’s the first. Apologies to German readers, but it’s Gedore.

I ordered these tools unseen, because I just needed a few BA sizes for my road box. At the time I could get superb pricing on Gedore and Stahlwille, but the latter didn’t offer BA.
IMG_2216.jpeg
At first glance all is fine, but..

The interior of the sockets isn’t great.

Some have a detent to retain the socket, some just a hole (it’s random - not size related ). The detent isn’t positive. The drilled hole is awful, offers little positive retention, and unlike the Stahlwille there is no other retention option.
IMG_2218.jpeg

The fit of the parts isn’t great.
IMG_2220.jpeg

The finish isn’t uniform. Although hard to see in the picture, these sockets are very different.
IMG_2217.jpeg
And overall, the tools just have a flimsy feel.

Compare the Gedore (bottom) with some Britool (top). The diameter of each Gedore piece is considerably less, and coupled with the relatively sloppy fits, results in a poor feel.
IMG_2221.jpeg

Now, I know some folks will think I’m being unduly harsh, and point out how good their 1/2” drive set has been, or that the tools are “adequate”, but those are precisely my points.

All manufacturers have areas in which they are strong, and some in which they are weak, and Gedore simply doesn’t do 1/4” drive that well. The tools may be “adequate“, but this is GJ, we want better than adequate, and there are others that do it better.
 
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Dave455

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For those in the U.S. (or elsewhere) wondering what on earth BA is, it’s essentially the British Equivalent of the Unified “numbered” series (i.e. the smaller sizes).

The significance is, that when the U.K. adopted Unified (SAE) sizes in the 1950’s, we never adopted the numbered series. So… most classic British vehicles from the late 50’s onwards will have larger bolts in SAE, and smaller ones in BA - thus BA are quite common.

The British aerospace industry did adopt the Unified numbered series, but not universally, so you will find aircraft with instruments secured by UNC screws, and engine components fitted with BA ones!

A further significance of the BA / Whitworth split, was that for decades it defined how British made socket sets were composed. 3/8” drive sets typically consisted of Whitworth sizes, 1/4” drive entirely BA, and there was very little overlap. This continued when sets were made in SAE or even metric sizes.

American made sets however, generally had a much better overlap of sizes, with 1/4” drive sets typically including sockets up to maybe 9/16. This generally was to be preferred, and was essential in some industries (such as aviation).
 
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four.cycle

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American made sets however, generally had a much better overlap of sizes, with 1/4” drive sets typically including sockets up to maybe 9/16.
^ Not until really late on the 9/16", Dave. Earliest 1/4" drive sets only went up to 3/8". Years went by before they went up to 7/16". Then more years went by until they added 1/2". The inclusion of 9/16" was within the last 15-20 years (or less) if I am not mistaken.
Unfortunately, there's no way to establish a definitive timeline, because different (American) manufacturers made those changes gradually, and not all at the same time.

(In that respect, I am clueless as to what British manufacturers were doing as far as size offerings over the years.)
 

HannibalLecter

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I said at the start, that I might post a few tools that never quite lived up to expectations, so here’s the first. Apologies to German readers, but it’s Gedore.

I ordered these tools unseen, because I just needed a few BA sizes for my road box. At the time I could get superb pricing on Gedore and Stahlwille, but the latter didn’t offer BA.
IMG_2216.jpeg
At first glance all is fine, but..

The interior of the sockets isn’t great.

Some have a detent to retain the socket, some just a hole (it’s random - not size related ). The detent isn’t positive. The drilled hole is awful, offers little positive retention, and unlike the Stahlwille there is no other retention option.
IMG_2218.jpeg

The fit of the parts isn’t great.
IMG_2220.jpeg

The finish isn’t uniform. Although hard to see in the picture, these sockets are very different.
IMG_2217.jpeg
And overall, the tools just have a flimsy feel.

Compare the Gedore (bottom) with some Britool (top). The diameter of each Gedore piece is considerably less, and coupled with the relatively sloppy fits, results in a poor feel.
IMG_2221.jpeg

Now, I know some folks will think I’m being unduly harsh, and point out how good their 1/2” drive set has been, or that the tools are “adequate”, but those are precisely my points.

All manufacturers have areas in which they are strong, and some in which they are weak, and Gedore simply doesn’t do 1/4” drive that well. The tools may be “adequate“, but this is GJ, we want better than adequate, and there are others that do it better.
I wouldn't touch gedore even with a pole. Uneven finish, monkey grinding marks on wrenches, out of center broaching, their ratchets are agricultural at best, the ratcheting wrenches have an enormous ring. The only thing that interests me is the dremometer torque wrenches but they are unobtainable
 
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YesIHaveAHammer

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Stuff I'm aware of that seems a bit niche, some especially in this drive size.

Breaker bar
Usually 3-4cm longer than the ratchets. The sliding T-handles are so thin in 1/4" to be quite uncomfortable, so maybe nice to have. Or crack it free then use it inline as a screwdriver to spin out. Or get to things at an awkward angle.
1756596078160.png

Speed handle
1756596326324.png

Flexible spinner handle
Makes sense if you need flexible nut driving in multiple sizes but not enough to have a set of one size ones.
1756596361702.png
 
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Dave455

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I wouldn't touch gedore even with a pole. Uneven finish, monkey grinding marks on wrenches, out of center broaching, their ratchets are agricultural at best, the ratcheting wrenches have an enormous ring. The only thing that interests me is the dremometer torque wrenches but they are unobtainable
I have to say that my views on Gedore have ended up the same way.

I encountered some dog rough wrenches years back, and avoided anything Gedore for a while, but then thought I’d risk the 1/4” drive.

The Gedore apologists will often say that the tools “get the job done” or point out that they are issued by the German army. I’ve come to the conclusion that’s exactly what Gedore are - the minimum quality to get a job done - something you would get “issued” rather than what you would buy yourself.

Back in the 1970’s Gedore socket sets were sold through Argos - a British discount chain. I can remember hearing a car enthusiast neighbour threatening his kids that if they didn’t work hard at school they’d only ever own Gedore tools! Terrifying!
 
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Dave455

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Breaker bar
Usually 3-4cm longer than the ratchets. The sliding T-handles are so thin in 1/4" to be quite uncomfortable, so maybe nice to have. Or crack it free then use it inline as a screwdriver to spin out. Or get to things at an awkward angle.
1756596078160.png

Speed handle
1756596326324.png

The Stahlwille Breaker bars are nicely proportioned and sensibly designed. In fact, I find that in all the drive sizes, not just 1/4”.

The only thing I don’t like is that they are only available with the comfort grip. With 1/4” drive in particular, I often find that I’m close to whatever I’m working on (inside engine compartments etc) so for automotive work I like tools with metal handles that don’t get damaged if they get bashed, and I can easily wipe off dirt, grease, or brake fluid.

The 1/4” speeder was obviously designed for the aerospace world, and is a superb design, as well as being I think unique.

For those who haven’t seen these, the “pad” is removable, allowing you to use it as a conventional handled speeder, or click the pad in to lean on it (vital for screwdriving). And all steel as well. And locking…
 

richfinn

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I have to say that my views on Gedore have ended up the same way.

I encountered some dog rough wrenches years back, and avoided anything Gedore for a while, but then thought I’d risk the 1/4” drive.

The Gedore apologists will often say that the tools “get the job done” or point out that they are issued by the German army. I’ve come to the conclusion that’s exactly what Gedore are - the minimum quality to get a job done - something you would get “issued” rather than what you would buy yourself.

Back in the 1970’s Gedore socket sets were sold through Argos - a British discount chain. I can remember hearing a car enthusiast neighbour threatening his kids that if they didn’t work hard at school they’d only ever own Gedore tools! Terrifying!

I suspect Gedore are the German equivalent of Draper tools, I've had some decent Draper stuff (made by Knipex) but most of the modern stuff is generic rubbish.
 

HannibalLecter

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I suspect Gedore are the German equivalent of Draper tools, I've had some decent Draper stuff (made by Knipex) but most of the modern stuff is generic rubbish.
I am not familiar with Drapers prices, however Gedore is pretty expensive on top of the lack in quality. The only sizes id maybe consider from Gedore would be the 3/4 drive
 

Etchase

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I really like Gedore. I appreciate there devotion to function. Some like every remnant of the forging process polished away. I don’t see the purpose. They are premium tools in function, and used very successfully in aerospace and other demanding applications. They have grown to be 50% bigger than their brethren Stahlwille and Hazet. Good stuff. Successful in world wide markets.
 

HannibalLecter

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I really like Gedore. I appreciate there devotion to function. Some like every remnant of the forging process polished away. I don’t see the purpose. They are premium tools in function, and used very successfully in aerospace and other demanding applications. They have grown to be 50% bigger than their brethren Stahlwille and Hazet. Good stuff. Successful in world wide markets.
Nope, they are far from premium tools in function and have unforgivable blemishes, as off center broaching. For tractors and tanks maybe ok, I doubt any company issues them on aerospace applications. What's the devotion to function? Other tool companies aren't devoted to function? Gedore doesn't hold a candle to stahlwille and hazet
 

bwringer

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Indianapolis
Wobble extensions are one of the most ridiculously useful accessories ever invented.

Many of these are made so that they have a shoulder or taper, and if you push the socket on a bit further, it locks into a second position tight against the shoulder to become essentially a straight extension. Very handy sometimes.


Question: on the locking pin style, how do you release the pin? Do you have to poke it with something? I've never encountered these before. Are they mainly an industrial use thing?
 
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Dave455

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 19, 2013
Messages
5,826
Location
Sussex, England
I suspect Gedore are the German equivalent of Draper tools, I've had some decent Draper stuff (made by Knipex) but most of the modern stuff is generic rubbish.
Gedore are slightly different to Draper in that Gedore are a manufacturer. Draper are purely an importer.

Having said that, most companies who manufacture part of their range, usually do it quite well. With Gedore it’s sometimes the opposite way round, and the rebranded tools can actually be better (though not always - depends on the source).

Gedore own Habero, who make excellent German pattern hammers, and also the gold painted punches and chisels you sometimes see. Both are excellent quality.
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Gedore have also recently purchased Torqueleader, the British torque wrench manufacturer. Historically, Torqueleader products were about the highest quality you could get (certainly the torque screwdrivers), and I’m not sure how I feel about Gedore buying them.
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