theoldwizard1
Well-known member
Anyone using 16/2 NM-B and 10A breakers ? Lighting circuits ?
Question for Sparkies
- Thread starter theoldwizard1
- Start date
eejack
Well-known member
Never, but I have only been doing electric for 40 years ( mostly in the US but some overseas facilities work ).
Nope.
2023 NEC 210.23A permits 10A ckts but table 210.24 requires #14 Copper for the 10A ckt. So what's the point at this time?
I further see it as an upcoming restriction to add something simple to a close by ckt only to find out it's #16. It's just as much work to run 14-2/3, so why bother?
2023 NEC 210.23A permits 10A ckts but table 210.24 requires #14 Copper for the 10A ckt. So what's the point at this time?
I further see it as an upcoming restriction to add something simple to a close by ckt only to find out it's #16. It's just as much work to run 14-2/3, so why bother?
Chuckster in NJ
Well-known member
My big question is: WHY would you even think of doing something so stoopid to save a few bucks? 
TIP! Do it right the first time or don’t do it at all.
TIP! Do it right the first time or don’t do it at all.
micromind
Well-known member
I think the code needs to be revised to allow 16/2 NM cable. No reason not to use it for hardwired dedicated loads plus with copper prices these days it'd save $$$.
These days, 10 amp is ample for led lighting circuits . and there will always be stupid people that overload a circuit and have the attitude " It works just fine"
We ain;t going backwards in lighting where we will be using more current.
We ain;t going backwards in lighting where we will be using more current.
Dagny
Well-known member
Two things I don't need in my truck, another size wire and 2 more refrigerants.
Cruzan80
Well-known member
Isn't that three things?
eejack
Well-known member
It really isn't a lot in savings, plus having to find 10A breakers ( and stock them ).
The good part is joey homeowner will buy the cheaper wire and burn down their house with some regularity ( because we all know people are stupid, cheap and arrogant ), which will in turn increase all of our homeowner's insurance, making up for the couple of cents saved in using wee little wire.
All of the burning houses will cause local AHJs to more strictly examine installations, causing more failed inspections, causing more people to avoid getting permits, causing more fires, raising homeowners insurance even more.
Why yes, I do have stock in some insurance companies...
Why does the 16/2 exist then?
micromind
Well-known member
I've used it on fire alarm power circuits.
Assuming the post I quoted is correct, then how is it compliant on a fire alarm circuit?
Shiftless
Well-known member
If my figures are correct the weight difference in the actual copper content of the wires between 14ga. and 16ga. is about half a pound per 100 feet. Since the cable has 3 conductors, that would result in a raw material cost savings of whatever 1.5 pounds of copper costs the manufacturer for each 100 foot roll.
A few electricians I know don't bother with 14 gauge anymore even.
Just easier to run 12 gauge as it's not much more money and less to stock and keep track of.
OP
theoldwizard1
Well-known member
If they use 16/2 with a 15A breaker !
OP
theoldwizard1
Well-known member
Is that an exception in NEC ?
eejack
Well-known member
Because they likely already have those in their panels ( or going to add 'just one more thing' to a circuit ).
I'm not an auto mechanic, to me, oil is oil. To joey homeowner, wire is wire - especially given the advice they are getting from your typical big box store drone.
alfredeneuman
Well-known member
I've heard (somewhere) that 14/2 copper clad aluminum that is approved for 10A breakers, to be used only on lighting circuits.
micromind
Well-known member
760.27 Only copper conductors shall be permitted to be used for fire alarm systems. Size 18 AWG and 16AWG conductors shall be permitted to be used.
micromind
Well-known member
Why stop there.....put a 30 on it, that way it won't trip anymore.......
So 16/2 on a 10A is OK for an alarm but not a light?
micromind
Well-known member
According to code; yes.
Imho, the better use for 10A breakers is when you have to de-rate your #14 for distance.
Going back to my apprenticeship training, the rationale for #14 minimum was supposedly due to mechanical strain of installation. Too easy to damage/break smaller conductors. Remembering we had #16 bond in #14 NM cable back in the day, but no longer.
Going back to my apprenticeship training, the rationale for #14 minimum was supposedly due to mechanical strain of installation. Too easy to damage/break smaller conductors. Remembering we had #16 bond in #14 NM cable back in the day, but no longer.
Chapter 7 is special equipment and yes it details ampacity and ocp values for #18 and #16 CU for fire alarms, this is not the scope of your original post, so it is noise to you. Read the articles in chapter 2 that I already posted for your intended purpose.
What NEC version are you referring to? It's not even referenced as edited or deleted in NEC 2023. 760.43 in 2023 NEC states equivalent verbiage.
Fire alarms are part of specialized equipment found in chapter 7 of NEC and these subsequent chapters can override requirements in chapter 2 & 3. Just like chapter 4 for motor circuit conductor ampacity.
nadogail
Well-known member
The results of being cheap when buying materials can be very Expensive to correct.
especially when the labor is the same effort.
micromind
Well-known member
2005.
Yes it's old but I do mostly industrial and that part hasn't changed much.
The only thing I do with fire alarms is run pipe and pull wire according to the drawings. Here in Nevada, only a licensed fire alarm contractor can connect devices but anyone can run pipe and wire.
American Locomotive
Well-known member
Who said anyone was "angry"?
It's just that with modern LED lighting, it's unnecessary to run 12 or 14 gauge wiring for lighting circuits. A single 8a 16awg circuit could provide 950w continous power. I think my entire house has maybe 300w worth of lights? So it's wasteful to use 14 or 12 when a single 16g circuit at 8a could light three homes.
The NEC has all kinds of dubious "exceptions". Welder circuits are allowed to pair a 50a outlet and breaker with 12 gauge wire as long as you label the outlet "welder only". Ignoring that modern inverter welders have very high duty cycles and that when the sticker falls off in 5 years, someone could plug in whatever they want.
Don't forget about the motor sizing rule that will let you put a 40A breaker on a 12awg wire going to a motor, on the assumption the motor's overload will protect the wire. Just hope there are never any partial shorts somewhere or no one accidentally changes out the motor for something bigger.
Aaron_W
Well-known member
That only works until some knucklehead replaces the LEDs with incandescent bulbs because 'Murica!
alfredeneuman
Well-known member
The 80% rule for continuous loads still is valid, which would pretty much eliminate the use of incandescent loads exceeding 8A.
Oldwizard was.
It's rare to see ONLY lighting circuits in houses around here, at least in normal sized houses with 125 amp service.
Typically there's a circuit for each room, or sometimes a couple rooms.
Like my old house, built in 2009, the master bed and bath was 1 circuit, the ither 2 bedrooms a circuit, living room a circuit, etc. Lights and outlets.
Kitchen had 2 for the outlets, the light was on the dining area circuit.
The only lighting circuit at my old house was the garage, and it also had the door opener.
The other 2 houses I lived in and this current the garage lighting was on the same as the outlets. This place, at least all the outlets aren't the same circuit.
Doing 20 amp isn't that much more $$, maybe $500 for an average house, and future proofs things a bit.
Like how about that spare bedroom becomes a little gym and I've got a window A/C, treadmill, fan, TV, lights on, plus bedroom has lights on, TV, ceiling fan?
Or it's used as a home office/spare space and have computer, a 1500 watt under desk heater to knock a chill down, lights, maybe a deep freeze in the corner.
The NEC often digs deep into "what ifs", my examples aren't all that crazy.
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sparky 1971
Well-known member
Do you think that is going to stop anyone? The only thing that will keep someone from overloading the circuit is the breaker tripping.
That applies to 16/2 @10A as much as it does 14/2@15A and 12/2@20A...
sparky 1971
Well-known member
It applies to all wires sizes and types. Do you think people actually take the 80% of continuous load into consideration when adding/changing things? They don't. Look at my reply, then what I was replying to, then look at what that was a reply to.
I was agreeing with you/adding to your point. They argument was irrelevant as people will be dumb with anything that can be plugged/wired in, not just 16/2
sparky 1971
Well-known member
I've seen a lot of 20 amp 120 circuits humming along at 20+ amps 24/7. Eventually the breaker fails; the solution is usually to put in a new breaker since nobody want's to spend the money to do it right and "It's been like that for years".
alfredeneuman
Well-known member
I agree but like any circuit without knowing the load the only signal you'll get is a tripped breaker