Above 1200 Sq/FT BoostingAZ's Garage & Woodshop
- Thread starter Boostingaz
- Start date
Wokspaces above 1200 squarefeet.
OP
Boostingaz
Well-known member
@fouckhest
All great questions and gives me a really good place to start. Those are some questions I never would have thought of but make perfect sense on making a discison to join.
How would security on something like this be dealt with. We have to stay HIPPA compliant as we have medical records and personal information on our machines due to our line of work. Also just need some sort security details to quote in general as that comes up in new client meetings as we manage and have access to pretty much all personal info and financial accounts access.
All great questions and gives me a really good place to start. Those are some questions I never would have thought of but make perfect sense on making a discison to join.
How would security on something like this be dealt with. We have to stay HIPPA compliant as we have medical records and personal information on our machines due to our line of work. Also just need some sort security details to quote in general as that comes up in new client meetings as we manage and have access to pretty much all personal info and financial accounts access.
The nice thing about fiber is you can't "tap" it in line. So no concern from that standpoint, I expect you would manage how you do now through some sort of encryption.
This now turns into a discussion that I would tap in @cccoltsicehockey
OP
Boostingaz
Well-known member
If you have connectivity or hardware issues....
It won't be a phone call, it would be my nikes and my door knocking hand taking a stroll down the street
cccoltsicehockey
Well-known member
Lot's to take in and digest here but I went back and read the entire conversation from the start.
@fouckhest is correct, you can't just really tap a fiber line and sniff it as easily as you could sat a cat6 line. That said I would have some additional security concerns here.
One way is that he could be leasing fiber lines like @fouckhest mentions in various sizes and essentially just patching them through to you. In that capacity, your security is basically just as secure as if you had bought through Frontier directly. He would likely just be calling in to them to make sure you lines are hot and your modem is authenticated. Although, from my knowlegde of Frontier in Florida at least, they don't care what device you hook up to your fiber line or didn't as of 3 years ago when I set up a system on their fiber network for my mom.
The other possible way is he is leasing lines, but they are larger connections. Say maybe a couple 2gb or 5gb speed lines. Then he is bringing them in on a WAN switch and then distributing them out to these other homes. To do this though he would need to have a small building or something where he is running this equipment. This would open up the security risks of both the locations of the major networking equipment, both physically and how well it is secured digitally.
I have actually read about several instances of the second design being implemented in really small communities or almost off the grid communities where one or two larger lines are brought in and them the new small town or community essentially builds out it's own ISP to redistribute just among that small group of people. Usually, no more than 50-200 homes.
Personally, I am a huge advocate for fiber and getting off of anything else these days. Cellular is probably second best though and it it meets your current needs might not be worth the hassle. His prices seem really fair for a fiber service as long as you can get some solid answers to start with for the questions @fouckhest brought up. Depending on how in-depth of responses he gives you to those you might even be able to figure out which scenario I mentioned above he might have implemented. It is possibly he is also doing it some other way, but in my experience, those two options are the most likely.
If you're comfortable with the scenario/way he's putting the fiber in...I would absolutely go with it as fiber to the home (FTTH) is awesome. Speed is far better, especially upload speed, the latency or lag is improved and overall it should be a far more consistent, reliable experience. Synchronous speeds where upload and download are the same vs the traditional upload being capped around 10 to 20% of download makes a far more enjoyable experience just in normal browsing.
With the apparent lack of easements and probably no documentation on where "stuff" is underground it may make down the road work more fun when someone else comes in and doesn't like the underground junction vaults where they are, future 811 locate doesn't mark the lines and a future contractor hits something that's not supposed to there etc.
But in general....if you can get fiber I would do it. Almost everything in the house stays the same, the fiber terminates into a different router, then from that a normal CAT 5/6 cable feeds everything downstream.
With the apparent lack of easements and probably no documentation on where "stuff" is underground it may make down the road work more fun when someone else comes in and doesn't like the underground junction vaults where they are, future 811 locate doesn't mark the lines and a future contractor hits something that's not supposed to there etc.
But in general....if you can get fiber I would do it. Almost everything in the house stays the same, the fiber terminates into a different router, then from that a normal CAT 5/6 cable feeds everything downstream.
This part is really concerning. His complete disregard for property rights, easements, etc. just seems like a HUGE red flag. I know you're kind of rural but I can easily see him being forced to yank all that stuff out at any time. In fact, if it were my property, it would be gone already.
The easement doesn't give just anyone the right to plant whatever they want on that area.
The encroachments should not be taken lightly. In my mind, he's shown himself to be a schmuck already.
OP
Boostingaz
Well-known member
Yea I'm not super happy about the line that's in the field. My thoughts are if a planter or tiller just, accidentally, happens to hit it......oops 🫣.
That or should I speak up now and tell him it's on my property and I'm not real thrilled that he did it without permission.
The box he put in for our house is right next to our mailbox. The utility easement is 16.5 feet from the center of the road. It's a 33 foot easement that runs smack dap down the road because all the property lines go to the center of the street. On our box he's damn near dead nuts 16.5 feet, maybe even a little outside that. The other line I've been referring to and posted a picture of, (orange) conduit that's still sticking out of the ground is clearly without a doubt on my property. I'm really surprised it already hasn't been hit with the bush hog. My neighbor kindly mows a few passes down that side for me to keep things separated from the property next door.
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B, I’d stay clear of it. You can certainly cover your security concerns with a VPN/firewall solution. But we’ve talked about what it is you do and reliability is everything for you. This guys disregard for easements and what appears to be a real sloppy installation would freak me out. The chances of someone or a municipality coming in and damaging a run upstream of you has potential. Then what happens?, who is going to repair it and how long might that argument take.
I’d stick it out with either a cell or satellite solution from a reliable provider.
I’d stick it out with either a cell or satellite solution from a reliable provider.
OP
Boostingaz
Well-known member
That's my thought as well. I'm happy and have been happy with our TMobile 5g service. It's plenty fast for what we use it for and very very rarely, like count on one hand, goes down or has issues. I think I'll just stick with what works. I'm in a price lock at $50 bucks, so changing only saves me $1 as he's at $49. But that's for his 100 speed, mine tests out at 170-175 right now and still 97 on the upload side so it's really not that different.
I just want to deal with the property rights situation now rather than later.
I’d still think you should ask the questions and see if you can get some details, it might help with the bigger picture
Depending on what/how he has done, what he has, and if he is advertising as “private” just because he is an independently owned ISP, he may have been given/granted right for the conduit, just like an ATT/frontier, etc….
All things that a couple pointed technically focused on questions may get him to open up
Depending on what/how he has done, what he has, and if he is advertising as “private” just because he is an independently owned ISP, he may have been given/granted right for the conduit, just like an ATT/frontier, etc….
All things that a couple pointed technically focused on questions may get him to open up
OP
Boostingaz
Well-known member
Most definitely will still ask some questions to get more details and answers and I'll post what I learn so as not to leave you with a cliffhanger
I'm no expert but I would doubt he has rights to use the easement. I'd want to clarify that with the city/county/whatever and, if he's not legal, get that stuff off your property. This really sounds shady as all get out.
It won't be a phone call, it would be my nikes and my door knocking hand taking a stroll down the street
shade
Well-known member
I'm in CyberSec for a Healthcare fortune 30...
Even if the dude is legit and doing it the right way you have no recourse. Where's you're legal agreement with him?
Second you mentioned you deal with PHI data.
You get popped from a security event due to homie in the hoods internet, legal action against you could be immediate and severe.
Even if the dude is legit and doing it the right way you have no recourse. Where's you're legal agreement with him?
Second you mentioned you deal with PHI data.
You get popped from a security event due to homie in the hoods internet, legal action against you could be immediate and severe.
PugetDude
ALLIANCE MEMBER
OP
Boostingaz
Well-known member
My parents are in town from AZ. They are staying with us for the next week or so before moving houses to stay with my GMA for a few days before heading back. Tonight we had a bonfire, chili and cornbread dinner, s'more desert night. All the kids are finally in bed and I am enjoying a little alone time by the fire.
gearhead1960
ALLIANCE MEMBER
The local yokel FTTH is concerning on a number of levels. I would require him to relocate and remove the runs out of your property and into the easement. Leaving the conduit runs on your property gives him tacit permission to continue to violate your property and possibly install more facility. If he is truly in your property, he should be paying you for the right to cross or be on your property. You might want to consult a real estate lawyer. I would also check with the local ruling governmental authority (municipal or state) to see if he actually has permit(s) to be installing this in their Right-of-Way. While Fiber is great, and I should know, I'm on one of the 1st systems installed in the country, reliability and security would be my major concern for a fly-by-night operator.
OP
Boostingaz
Well-known member
I took my morning walk with the kiddos and local yokel left his spool trailer out by an open hole 
.
This is the main line going in.
. This is the main line going in.
SilverJimmy
Well-known member
Is 10 year old Fiber state of the art?!
OP
Boostingaz
Well-known member
I don't think it's ever changed, it's just "plastic", but that was the first thing that crossed my mind as well. Hoping one of our fiber gurus here will chime in on that
SilverJimmy
Well-known member
Here in your old Hood they have been installing fiber all along the I-40 corridor. Huge reels of blue cable probably 2” in diameter or maybe even bigger. Hard to tell for sure since the speed limit got upped to 95! 
gearhead1960
ALLIANCE MEMBER
Fiber is actually glass strands, the sheath is plastic. Age probably doesn’t matter as the glass does not age. Is it getting direct buried or is it getting put into conduit?
OP
Boostingaz
Well-known member
It's all in conduit. It's only direct bury on the final run from the box to the house if you want the service.
Correct, that will be a pure silica glass core, then on top of that you will have acrylate coating that steps it up to the manageable diameters.
Also, there will likely be very little difference in performance for a "trunk/backbone" cable like that, while glass has gotten better in the past 10yrs, most of the advancements are in diameter reduction to all for more fibers to be packaged in the same/similar diameter cables. Kinda funny seeing that it has a "time warner cable" marking on it, he definitely purchased that from someone's closeout warehouse. The other good thing is that it is manufactured by Corning, they are basically the gold standard in the industry when it comes to single mode fiber (which is what that is, designated by SME in that print string).
OP
Boostingaz
Well-known member
Knowing really nothing about it this might be a dumb question but does it still have a metal or trace wire in it so that 811 can locate it all later or once everything is buried and closed up it's a blind man's guess ?
Ohhh isn't that just lovely - exposed fiber. This guy just keeps impressing me more and more. B, you make sure you're kids understand not to touch or play with those. The likelihood of getting a strand broke off in you is slim, but it can happen.I took my morning walk with the kiddos and local yokel left his spool trailer out by an open hole
This is the main line going in.
They should have shaded about 6" of dirt above the cable, then laid in traceable caution tape like this.
OP
Boostingaz
Well-known member
Yea, parked trailer, exposed wire, open man hole. Real peach of a neighbor
. All in someones front yard.PugetDude
ALLIANCE MEMBER
Better sign up quick before he flees the scene of the crime.Yea, parked trailer, exposed wire, open man hole. Real peach of a neighbor
OP
Boostingaz
Well-known member
They should have shaded about 6" of dirt above the cable, then laid in traceable caution tape like this.
It was all directional boring, there were never any open trenches.
That cable, I would say no. Fiber cables typically will not have a trace wire in them, but they actually can limit the length of the cable overall, and adds cost. I would think/expect that trace wires may be part of the conduit system but that I just a speculation on my part, the outside plant (OSP) world isn't my focus, I deal more with data center customers. While those type of cables are still used as feeder/backbone in campuses, the fiber counts grow exponentially. To Sterling's comment about 2" diameter cable, that quickly became a new norm, when I started in this industry in 2008ish, a "high fiber count cable" in the OSP, was 576f, today, that has grown to 3,456f and there are cables that even contain 6,912f
gearhead1960
ALLIANCE MEMBER
Coming from the SUE (Subsurface Utility Engineering) Industry, I've seen everything from no trace wire to different options. At one point when the fiber industry was new, there was nothing conductive put in. Early users like AT&T would put a tone on the line that their proprietary equipment could pick up. Typical line locators that use EM technology could not designate those lines. We would have to have AT&T come out and mark the lines. Moving forward, at one point either trace wire/tape was started to be required for installations. Some manufacturers would use a metallic sheaf over the fiber, but not sure the consistency or viability of that practice. Current practice that I've seen is when the conduit is bored, a rope is usually blown into the system and then a trace wire is pulled back through so that the conduit run (not the fiber) can be traced. Our local yokel, being the quality installer, is probably forgoing the trace wire due to the cost/expense to put it in. Besides, he is telling himself he'll remembers where he put it in if he has to find it later.... . Lastly, he likely has no plan he is going by to install the facility nor is as-building the install, so that once he decides it's time to sell to a larger system, they won't have a clue where it is, and at a later date have to replace it due the prohibitive cost to maintain something you don't have a clue where it is....passing on the cost to the end user.
. Lastly, he likely has no plan he is going by to install the facility nor is as-building the install, so that once he decides it's time to sell to a larger system, they won't have a clue where it is, and at a later date have to replace it due the prohibitive cost to maintain something you don't have a clue where it is....passing on the cost to the end user.gearhead1960
ALLIANCE MEMBER
As far as 811, he has to locate his own system, if he chooses to join the system. The 811 system is only a notification service provided by the state. As a member is gives you certain protections. In my state, membership is not a requirement. However, you then leave yourself open to damages you cannot make a claim for. Again, as a 811 participant you have to provide your own locates or contract this service out to someone.
west_perf
Well-known member
The picture in your backyard of the firepit is absolutely beautiful. Someday I'll have a view like that as well.
OP
Boostingaz
Well-known member
A simple request, very pleasant interaction a few days ago and the crew showed up this morning with a mini ex and moved the line that was in the hay field. They moved the box that was on my property that was actually set to feed the lot next door over onto that physical lot. So as of now I no longer have any lines or anything on my property expect for one small irrigation sized box out by my mailbox, which would be my future hook up if I ever wanted service. It is fed from the other side of the road so besides that box which is in the easement, I no longer have any part of this on my private property.
west_perf
Well-known member
I came back again today for inspiration once again. Happy to see all your projects and open space. I was a couple states over and south from you last month and put in an offer off the cuff on a house I just happened to drive by, mostly unplanned, and the short version is I missed it by a couple thousand $$ but the seed has been planted. I am doing this come hell or high water I'm going to wake up where the green grass grows and watch my corn pop up in rows. The wife took it better than I thought she would but again it's not real until the day I finally get possession of something. It might end up being cheap, or very costly if it involves some other things we won't mention, but either way it's going to be worth it.
Regarding our discussion last year about TYM/LS tractors I ended up buying a 5-series JD for just a couple thousand over the LS M4 deal I had worked out. Very happy with the purchase thus far.
Regarding our discussion last year about TYM/LS tractors I ended up buying a 5-series JD for just a couple thousand over the LS M4 deal I had worked out. Very happy with the purchase thus far.
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Boostingaz
Well-known member
Having done basically the same thing, I say go for it. Life's too short to not every once in a while take a risk towards a better quality of life. Going into it I was pretty nervous not gonna lie, but we have been here a little over a year now and I can tell you first hand how much lower my stress levels are, how I try and live more in the moment than always planning for that next moment.
We see and hang out with family often, have made some great friends, and the kids have much more "freedom" than was ever possible living in Phoenix, even in rural Phoenix. I'm not one bit concerned here about the kids going on a bike ride, or playing outside without a parent hawk eye. They have become more independent and confident and even stand up for themselves in public when they know an adult is out of line or wrong. It has been rewarding seeing them grow into their own little humans lol.
My wife and I have been doing a lot more things together since we have not been so selfishly focused on work and our security. I know everyone's situation is different and some people can't just decide not to work or not work as much but either way, even working our life is slower.
What state or states are you looking in ?
west_perf
Well-known member
Extreme SE Missouri, NE Arkansas, or NW Tennessee. It must be flat. The only hill I want to see would be a watermelon mound in the garden. That will put me 4-hours drive from my parents and family, with a number of acquaintances within 30 minutes.
I already own a nice rural piece of land in FL that we could build on which would put the wife 3-hours away from her family when we're down this way. She's having trouble getting her mind around it, but when pushed we will see what happens. As you mentioned life is too short.....
....to deal with suburban nonsense. I have a very nice house, much like your place in AZ. The lots are all 2-ish acres, one side of my lot is bordered by a very dense housing development. It hasn't been a problem minus a situation or two but I won't miss it never driving by it again. The day I arrived home from looking at those houses I woke up at 2 AM because the neighbors flood lights came on and shined through my hallway and I said "I'm done". The real kicker is that in 6-7 years I will pay as much for mortgage/insurance/Taxes that would pay in full a house I'm looking at, of course it's a smaller house but bigger lots and barns. Think about that, and I say that knowing full well the monthly outlay on my 3500/sqft house is less than 1-bedroom apartment rent just down the road. It would enable a significantly earlier retirement, among other things.
Anyways don't want to slide your thread, but while my wife says we're living someone else's dream, I believe you're living mine. Keep it up buddy!
I already own a nice rural piece of land in FL that we could build on which would put the wife 3-hours away from her family when we're down this way. She's having trouble getting her mind around it, but when pushed we will see what happens. As you mentioned life is too short.....
....to deal with suburban nonsense. I have a very nice house, much like your place in AZ. The lots are all 2-ish acres, one side of my lot is bordered by a very dense housing development. It hasn't been a problem minus a situation or two but I won't miss it never driving by it again. The day I arrived home from looking at those houses I woke up at 2 AM because the neighbors flood lights came on and shined through my hallway and I said "I'm done". The real kicker is that in 6-7 years I will pay as much for mortgage/insurance/Taxes that would pay in full a house I'm looking at, of course it's a smaller house but bigger lots and barns. Think about that, and I say that knowing full well the monthly outlay on my 3500/sqft house is less than 1-bedroom apartment rent just down the road. It would enable a significantly earlier retirement, among other things.
Anyways don't want to slide your thread, but while my wife says we're living someone else's dream, I believe you're living mine. Keep it up buddy!