J H Williams vintage hand tools

[Oldtuleguy]

I have a couple with raised numbers like that but 7 series. Maybe a misprint?

 

[misterbill]

FWIW, I measured with a micrometer and I got .637" x .766" milled openings. That's 5/8" x 3/4" unless you're willing to consider that it might be 41/64" x 49/64".

 

[Oldtuleguy]

My 729 is 5/8 and 3/4, so 131 is kinda off the wall. Got some Brooklyn stuff two digits with a letter.

 

[Oregon Dave]

My 729 is 5/8 and 3/4, so 131 is kinda off the wall. Got some Brooklyn stuff two digits with a letter.

Don't have Williams; for those that do, how often do you see the forged/raised number oriented transversely on the stem and a 1 in that font style?

 

[Oldtuleguy]

Personally not often

 

[Private Lugnutz]

...two digits with a letter.

33C is a Williams model number for a DOE engineers wrench with milled openings of 1" x 15/16". Just like your previous 723, as well as the 729, which are Williams model numbers for DOE engineers wrenches with milled openings of 3/8" x 7/16" and 5/8" and 3/4", respectively. In the early days, the model number for their DOE engineers wrenches were two digit numbers between 21 and 65. There is no...

7 series

...of wrenches, as you mentioned earlier. The "7" is a prefix that was used to add DOE engineers wrenches to the lineup later, after all the other numbers were used. Same as the "C" in "33C", which is one of several suffixes used to add wrenches to the lineup later.

If you look at any part of any DOE engineers wrench list from a catalog in the 1940's, you can see how this system evolved over time...



These numbers are not peculiar to Williams and, frankly, not peculiar at all. Williams model numbers were adopted by all of industry and became Industry Standard Numbers, used by other mfgrs in their catalogs. B&S, Williams' oldest and fiercest competitor, was the last to give in and use them. By the 1930's they were commonly found on all vintage DOE engineers wrenches and in every mfgrs' catalogs.

how often do you see the forged/raised number oriented transversely on the stem and a 1 in that font style?

There is nothing odd about the style of the forged-in number ("131") or its placement across the beam of the shank on the flip side of the wrench under the major jaw. It's very common. As is the flattened and partially obscured number ("30"?) and its placement across the beam of the shank on the top side of the wrench under the major jaw. This is where and how Williams commonly forged-in model numbers. Later they would start stamping them on jaws and also on the shank and later still they turned those in line with the beam of the shank.

Bill knows all of this, which is secondary to the prime issue he first pointed out, to which I also alluded several times.

That is that "131" is not a Williams number/ISN for a DOE engineers' wrench.

"731" is, as I already mentioned. But a "731" wrench has 3/4" x 13/16" milled openings.

 

[Oregon Dave]

I have a couple with raised numbers like that but 7 series. Maybe a misprint?

Hello, thanks for posting this photo; the oval logo is different from the two listed on AA, which they note as a pair at.

J.H. Williams, The SuperCompany

An article on the J.H Williams Company and its tools.

alloy-artifacts.org

For clarity is the:
Top Line - WILLIAMS
Center symbol - empty square
Bottom Line - DROP FORGED

Thank-You

 

[Oldtuleguy]

It's a w in the square just hard to read. I pick them up here and there and keep them on this toolboard. It's fun to see all the variations.

 

[Oregon Dave]

It's a w in the square just hard to read. I pick them up here and there and keep them on this toolboard. It's fun to see all the variations.

Thanks for the reply; the wrench in the left photo has another face marking I can’t find in AA’s file. Seems they would have more comprehensive data; don’t know if you can contact them, they should be very interested in your two wrenches.

I say two because the wrench in your post #1681 has a different face marking; sure looks like the center symbol is a square on that one.
When you get the time, if you could verify the text lines also please.

I & I’m sure many others appreciate what you share here; time & effort & knowledge - Thanks Kindly

 

[Oldtuleguy]

Im Just having fun !

 

[Private Lugnutz]

There are numerous examples of wrenches with just the "< W >" and "U.S.A." markings on this thread. Some kind of contract production, probably military. I once had a whole GMTK-spec set, posted on the DOE thread here. Put it in a GMTK I sold long time ago.

The other marking is compressed because it's a very small wrench face. I'd be surprised if AA didn't comment on it somewhere. Common knowledge among Williams collectors.

 

[Mintgrun]

There are numerous examples of wrenches with just the "< W >" and "U.S.A." markings on this thread.

I'll add one more example, found last week. (Although this one also has a V forged onto the other side).


It sure looks a lot like this CHROMIUM VANADIUM wrench.

 

[Mintgrun]

This hefty S wrench is wearing the mark of the Beast!


Number 666 B.



It was brown when I fownd it, which is probably why they'd tossed it in the scrap bin.
Or, maybe it was for religious reasons. Hard tellin', not knowin'.

 

[Oldtuleguy]

Yikes! That's spooky. Alot of church goers might toss that one

 

[Private Lugnutz]

I'll add one more example, found last week. (Although this one also has a V forged onto the other side).

Lending credence to the contract or economy line use. The meaning of the "V" has never been definitively resolved, but it is often seen on tools that can be dated to wartime.

It was brown when I fownd it.

That was before the molt. Next come the red scales and fangs.

 

[Leviton]

Found an old Atlantic Service Company Hook-Eye meat saw. After cleaning, the diamond W logo appeared. Seems to indicate that at least part of this saw was made by J. H. Williams. Both companies started in Brooklyn so it seems reasonable.

This saw greatly improved the efficiency of the meat packing industry by introducing easily removable and replaceable blades that could be sharpened outside the butcher’s shop. (See company history link below.)






Size:
23.7" overall length with a 17” blade.

Markings:
“ ''Hook-Eye Trade Mark'' A.S.Co.owners-Never Sold"

"0RF" - "Pat.-38" - "Pat. June 35" - "(W-diamond)"

"Hook-Eye ®"(on each side of handle)

Patents:
The June 11, 1935 patent is US2,004,700 to C.A. Laemmel for "Method of forming eyelets on meat saws and the like" and refers to the blade connection closest to the handle.

The March 01, 1938 patent (US2,109,625) to A. O. Schaefer is for "Saw blade attachment" and is also related to the connection closest to the handle but has to do with the cam and spring loaded function.



Atlantic Service Company started in Brooklyn but is now headquartered in the UK - their website has a good writeup on the company history.
The words "Hook-Eye" were adopted to designate a removable saw blade fastened to the frame by means of a hook on one end and an eye on the other.

 

[Leviton]

Here are all my third party Williams wrenches. I've posted them individually on this thread before if you want to search for more details, but never before as a group shot. From the top to the bottom are Automatic Screw Machine Company (most similar to your Foster find in terms of type of customer), Globe Slicers (easily the coolest in my collection, Globe was thee most prolific supplier of meat slicers to butchers and delis in NYC), Kelly Press (printing outfit), and Dexter (also lithography, printing, etc).

The Atlantic Service Company saw is another Williams link to the meat industry in NYC which ties in with Lugz' previously mentioned connection with Globe (in post #1,306).

 

[3baygarage]

Wow, that's a pretty cool find. It looks incredibly nice too.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Found an old Atlantic Service Company Hook-Eye meat saw

Abso-f#$%ing-lutely gorgeous.

The Atlantic Service Company saw is another Williams link to the meat industry in NYC which ties in with Lugz' previously mentioned connection with Globe (in post #1,306).

Very cool observation.

 

[Tom "Python" Aycock]

From the catalog.

Hey, thanks for posting this. I just found a ST-70 yesterday and looking at it more closely today, was puzzled on how this worked (originally thought it was a random cool socket). Mystery solved with this post but now I obviously have to find the other 17 tools! I'm guessing the beveled opening slides onto that handle (stem)? If ya get a chance to show a picture of this piece attached as illustrated, thanks.

 

[HOF]

Outside the box are not part of the set. I just keep them in the same box.

 

[HOF]

I really didn't think about this when I bought it, but I guess I have to keep this WSB-1 3/8" Socket Set sealed. I'm guessing this set is from the 80s. The box reads TRW.

 

[HOF]

The cover.

 

[HOF]

The box it came with.

 

[four.cycle]

.

^ Yes. 1980s TRW owned Williams for a bit. NO clue on exact time frame. They also bought Columbia Tap & Die about the same time.
The 1980s was a non-stop **** of corporate mergers/takeovers/acquisitions.

 

[3baygarage]

Cool ad.

Well, I went out today and found one of those fancy 3/8 box sets. Missing 7 pieces but I do have them when I get around to looking.

Edit: few extra pcs were in there.

 

[MAD]

I came upon this brochure today while going through some old files. While late 1990s doesn't fit everyone's definition of "vintage", this 1st generation Kobalt paper seemed like it may fit with the J.H. Williams history info.

 

[Cruzan80]

By the 90's, Williams was a lower division of Snap-On (like Blue-Point). My general understanding is that JH Williams pre-dates the sale, as SnapOn dropped the JH part (only Williams).

Not saying the paer isn't interesting, just slightly off-target.

 

[mreisner]

My aunt used to work at Williams in Buffalo. My dad introduced her to his brother ,one thing led to another and they were married for over 50 years

 

[MAD]

By the 90's, Williams was a lower division of Snap-On (like Blue-Point). My general understanding is that JH Williams pre-dates the sale, as SnapOn dropped the JH part (only Williams).

Not saying the paer isn't interesting, just slightly off-target.

It was still J.H. Williams at the time of that brochure (it's on there) and up until 2011. https://www.garagejournal.com/forum...roup-is-now-snap-on-industrial-brands.111761/

Anyway, just posting it here since it seemed like it related at least tangentially to Williams history. A moderator is free to move or delete the post if it is too "off target"

 

[Private Lugnutz]

My aunt used to work at Williams in Buffalo. He introduced her to his brother one thing led to another and they were married for over 50 years

Cool anecdote. I am assuming the "he" pronoun refers to your father. What years did she work there? And if they were vintage, when is the next time you can rummage through the house for Williams factory ephemera, memorabilia, and paraphernalia?

 

[mreisner]

Cool anecdote. I am assuming the "he" pronoun refers to your father. What years did she work there? And if they were vintage, when is the next time you can rummage through the house for Williams factory ephemera, memorabilia, and paraphernalia?

Would have been early 50's. Yes, my Dad, corrected that. Only thing we have is some wrenches that Dad bought years ago from them. He passed 3 years ago otherwise I would ask him for more information.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Would have been early 50's.

That's passed my personal collecting niche, but I'm objective enough to recognize that it was a very interesting time for Williams. They must have thought their late 40's postwar production - which, except for dropping the "FORGED < W >" from the scroll marking, was not that different than their wartime production - was getting stale. They changed the look of their main logo, introduced what would eventually become their most popular and well-known (Johnson patent) dual-pawl progressive RHFT ratchet, the double-groove style sockets, as well as the distinctive "ribbed" style of end wrenches. And all that came just before the United-Greenfield acquisition in 1959. It was all downhill in conglomeration and relegation from there, in my opinion.

He passed 3 years ago

Sorry to hear that. I lost mine, a WWII vet, 28 years ago. Not a day goes by...

 

[mreisner]

That's passed my personal collecting niche, but I'm objective enough to recognize that it was a very interesting time for Williams. They must have thought their late 40's postwar production - which, except for dropping the "FORGED < W >" from the scroll marking, was not that different than their wartime production - was getting stale. They changed the look of their main logo, introduced what would eventually become their most popular and well-known (Johnson patent) dual-pawl progressive RHFT ratchet, the double-groove style sockets, as well as the distinctive "ribbed" style of end wrenches. And all that came just before the United-Greenfield acquisition in 1959. It was all downhill in conglomeration and relegation from there, in my opinion.

Sorry to hear that. I lost mine, a WWII vet, 28 years ago. Not a day goes by...

. Thanks 93 and still had all his faculties, the body just wore out. Able to be at home until the very end, moved his bed downstairs, the last few months couldn't make it up the stairs so we moved upstairs downstairs. Mom was an absolute angel taking care of him. At night they get Whispering sweet nothings to each other which since they both had their hearing aids out weren't exactly whispering. I was upstairs and had to remind them that I could hear them and didn't want to! Luckily I only live half a mile away so I was there quite a bit.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

^ That's funny, and sweet. My mom is 94. Dad would be 99.

 

[mreisner]

^ That's funny, and sweet. My mom is 94. Dad would be 99.

Dad was 17 years older than mom, and I'm not the reason they got married I came along 2 years later.

 

[cody1325]

I came upon this brochure today while going through some old files. While late 1990s doesn't fit everyone's definition of "vintage", this 1st generation Kobalt paper seemed like it may fit with the J.H. Williams history info.

That ad was just what I needed. I was curious what a Williams made Kobalt ratchet (and wrench) looked like, and it's a lot different than the Danaher/Western Forge (which Cripe has had dozens of lately) or modern imported stuff.

I've got a 1/4 and 3/8 on my eBay watchlist. Anyone here have a photo of one of the ratchets so I can compare to be sure these are the Williams-made ones?

 

[MAD]

That ad was just what I needed. I was curious what a Williams made Kobalt ratchet (and wrench) looked like, and it's a lot different than the Danaher/Western Forge (which Cripe has had dozens of lately) or modern imported stuff.

I've got a 1/4 and 3/8 on my eBay watchlist. Anyone here have a photo of one of the ratchets so I can compare to be sure these are the Williams-made ones?

i don't have a ratchet but I lifted a picture from an old thread and an ebay listing.

 

[Snaparxon]

This was interesting, did they not test Snap on against Snap on's own Williams product?

I always thought they looked and felt awkward. Who knew a complete set of wrenches would be so valuable decades later.

 

[MAD]

Here are some pictures of a nice 9/32" drive M-51 SUPERRATCHET I picked up in a junk store a bunch of years ago for the true vintage fans.