vintage saw restoration

[Private Lugnutz]

^ Rgr/Ack.

4.c,

I have a few pertinent references to share. I will split them up in several posts.

Here are some pages from the 1939 Federal Standard Stock Catalog Section IV (Specifications) binders it was my good fortune to find at the flea market many, many years ago. No doubt you have seen me reference and share them from time to time as needed. Note that while the 'Saws' specs (GGG-S-61) are dated 1934, they had not yet been re-written/superseded or amended in June 1939, the effective date of the catalog contained in the binders. (Other specs contain green amendment sheets.) In short, these are the 1939 Fed Specs for butchers' saws.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

This 1956 publication indicates that the Fed Spec was updated sometime between 1939 and 1956 to GGG-S-61a and again as GGG-F-665.



Those updates is where you will likely find the differences between your saw and the 1939 specs, especially the handle. From experience - including collecting and researching the adjustable hacksaws in the GMTK, which are directly relevant, my hunch is the GGG-S-61a specs were probably published late war (1945) or immediate postwar.

Hacksaws with wooden handles are specified in early and mid WWII manuals....

,

...but by mid 1945 they were composite.



I think your butcher saw could be late war or postwar.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Lastly, Atkins had a number of wartime contracts. One of them (highlighted) was with the QMC. You'll note that it's value ($67,000) was very close to the minimum threshold ($50,000) for inclusion in the WPB's record keeping. They could have had others that did not meet the threshold for them to track. This one is probably too early for a composite handle, anyway.



This State of Indiana record...



...indicates a history of selling butchers saws to the QMC in very small contracts.

That exhausts what I know and my interest, but if you really wanted to narrow the production down, I would look in late 40's and 50's documents. That's when I think they made your saw for the QMC.

 

[four.cycle]

and the composite handle. Is that Bakelite or hard rubberoid

It's wood, believe it or not. From the Original photo it looks black - there was so much black gick stuck to it I had to wash it with hot water, trisodium-phosphate, and Dawn dishwashing liquid to cut the crud off it.

(Who is "Joe" in the photo titles?)

Joe is the genteman who owns the shed from which this piece was rescued - four miles from the Pacific Ocean. When it's restored, it will be returned.

Are you having another 'do as you say, not as you do' moment?

Well... you need to understand that I'm looking at a much broader range of subjects here than you - so of course there will always be stuff that will slip past me. That's inevitable.

So... the saws are measured by length of blade? The blade length is 14-5/8" (ten teeth per inch)

What's really puzzling is that there doesn't seem to be any way to remove the blade from the frame at the front end - it appears to be a rivet there - and the back end of the blade is secured to that threaded piece by means of a pin that's been driven through and ground off flush.

Better light, not resized:

 

[Oregon Dave]

It's wood, believe it or not. From the Original photo it looks black - there was so much black gick stuck to it I had to wash it with hot water, trisodium-phosphate, and Dawn dishwashing liquid to cut the crud off it.

Joe is the genteman who owns the shed from which this piece was rescued - four miles from the Pacific Ocean. When it's restored, it will be returned.

Well... you need to understand that I'm looking at a much broader range of subjects here than you - so of course there will always be stuff that will slip past me. That's inevitable.

So... the saws are measured by length of blade? The blade length is 14-5/8" (ten teeth per inch)

What's really puzzling is that there doesn't seem to be any way to remove the blade from the frame at the front end - it appears to be a rivet there - and the back end of the blade is secured to that threaded piece by means of a pin that's been driven through and ground off flush.

Better light, not resized:

That black gick was most likely dried blood.

I'm sure you know the front blade rivet is peened over like those on shovel handles; do you want to remove it?

"When it's restored, it will be returned." says a lot to me of the worth of your essence; will mean a lot to Joe.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Well... you need to understand that I'm looking at a much broader range of subjects here than you -

Oh, trust me, I know! Hence, why I was trying to remind you of the Sticky. We have joked in the past about how you diligently direct people to it and the LIST, but often absent-mindedly forget to check it first yourself sometimes. The whole point of the Sticky to show us the threads, like this one, that are there, somewhere, but inactive. I'm simply gently helpfully chiding you to take a look and you might see other threads that might interest you that you also haven't seen before.

... the saws are measured by length of blade? The blade length is 14-5/8" (ten teeth per inch)

Length, width, PPI, and thickness, as shown in the table.

What's really puzzling is that there doesn't seem to be any way to remove the blade from the frame at the front end...

As described in E-8 and shown in Figure 8. (There are hacksaws that are non-adjustable/permanently attached, too.)

 

[four.cycle]

you diligently direct people to it and the LIST, but often absent-mindedly forget to check it first yourself sometimes. The whole point of the Sticky to show us the threads, like this one, that are there, somewhere, but inactive. I'm simply gently helpfully chiding you to take a look and you might see other threads that might interest you that you also haven't seen before.

I am amazed some times when I am up at 3:00 am and come across something and then after spinning my wheels searching all over for information, find a long-forgotten thread here from 2011. (Just happened to me a few nights ago.)(And guess whose thread it was?)

 

[four.cycle]

E-8 and shown in Figure 8.

I am hoping that's in this thread.
Okay... found that.
Yes, the handle is secured to the frame with three nickel-plated fasteners. I was amazed at how shiny they were when they came out of the evaporust.

I'm just stuck on this issue of the blade not coming off the frame without grinding or digging out a punch and a hammer.
No way can I take that blade down to Superior Saw ON the frame - I either get it off the frame, or this is as far as this project goes.

 

[four.cycle]

I'm sure you know the front blade rivet is peened over like those on shovel handles; do you want to remove it?

I need to get the blade off the frame in order to be able to take it down to the local saw shop and have it sharpened.

"When it's restored, it will be returned." says a lot to me of the worth of your essence; will mean a lot to Joe.

I've reworked and returned several of Joe's tools over the last few years. A couple below:

 

[Oregon Dave]

I need to get the blade off the frame in order to be able to take it down to the local saw shop and have it sharpened.

I've reworked and returned several of Joe's tools over the last few years. A couple below:

I have the same affinity; gives me a sense of something to find an abused vintage tool of quality - put it back in it's 'working clothes' and use it or find a place it will be appreciated.

The rivet is easy to take out; the delicacy of the restoration may effect how you do it.

To minimize damage:
Use and let soak the rivet with a rust remover; my go to is Kearney's Rust Cutter, Cat No. 19229-1. Can be hard to find; is for corroded power pole hardware; find a lineman, (my Dad was) he'll have it. Find a flex tube for the nozzle if you can; a tiny amount works.
File the peened end down flush with the surface & drive the rivet out with a drift punch; blade will drop out and adjustment bolt will follow; replace with new rivet when ready.

The process on a shovel, removes some base metal - who cares on a shovel - with your knowledge, suspect you can minimize or eliminate that.

Absolutely Fantastic Project; Enjoy !!!

 

[RTM]

I need to get the blade off the frame in order to be able to take it down to the local saw shop and have it sharpened.

I have one or two, and have seen more, butcher saws where there were stamped along the lines of

Not for sale: Property of Dave's saws

My understanding, from talking to others older and wiser than myself, is that the butcher leased /rented the saw from someone, who sharpened it on a regular schedule. Seen some with an 1/4" cutting section on 3/4" blade end, with an irregular transition. Well sharpened over the years. The rivet might be to keep Dave in business, so Mr Butcher can't just swap the blade. Might be Dave could sharpen it on the frame, or could quickly knock the rivet out.

My current butcher is younger than I am, may not help to ask him

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Okay... found that.
Yes, the handle is secured to the frame with three nickel-plated fasteners...[ ]...I'm just stuck on this issue of the blade not coming off the frame without grinding or digging out a punch and a hammer.

I pointed you back to the description and figure in the 1939 Fed Specs to show you that there is nothing odd about it being pinned in the front. (EDIT: I haven't been able to find a QMC ref showing or describing one with a pistol grip, though.)

 

[LesserSon]

Alternative to filing the peened end of the rivet is to drill into it with a bit somewhat larger in diameter. Be careful to center it, and not let it walk. Do a pilot hole if you don’t have a sharp brad-tipped larger bit. When the face of the drill reaches the plane of the hole in the frame, the peened edges of the rivet will ride up the drill bit like a collar. Don’t drill any deeper, or you’ll widen the hole. Stop and punch the rivet out.

To my aesthetics, I’d rather risk a slight bevel to the edge of the hole, which will probably be covered by the next rivet peening, than risk visible parallel abrasions from filing, because the peening can be depressed below the surface of the frame.

 

[four.cycle]

ahhh... okay... I've done that before to break stuff apart... tricky operation if you're working with a round-headed rivet. Piece of cake on a cheapie Taiwan piece assembled with aluminum pop-rivets. Sounds like a better approach.
Waiting for a reply from Superior Saw to see whether they can sharpen the blade ON the frame. (I'm thinking doubtful, but I had to ask.)

I don't think Dave had anything to do with this one - it doesn't appear to have ever been tinkered with, and it's a long, long, long ways to any butcher shops up there. They usually just dress out the animals on the side of the road - this time of year there are elk and deer carcasses everywhere up there.

But.... even if I can drill the rivet out, I've still got that threaded piece at the back end that's pinned to the blade, and the pin has been ground off flush. (Difficult to make out the detail in the shots above. Full-sun photos below.)

 

[four.cycle]

with a pistol grip,

^ I was avoiding the use of that term because I didn't want to speculate - saws are definitely not an area of my expertise, gentlemen.
That part of it - the "pistol grip" - is what makes it different from every other "butcher saw" or "kitchen saw" I was able to find in any of the Atkins catalogs I downloaded from ITCL last night.

The hand grip and the fact it's riveted and pinned together causes me to wonder if perhaps this was some odd special-order item that was never intended to be serviced? Or is that too far a stretch?

 

[Oregon Dave]

ahhh... okay... I've done that before to break stuff apart... tricky operation if you're working with a round-headed rivet. Piece of cake on a cheapie Taiwan piece assembled with aluminum pop-rivets. Sounds like a better approach.
Waiting for a reply from Superior Saw to see whether they can sharpen the blade ON the frame. (I'm thinking doubtful, but I had to ask.)

I don't think Dave had anything to do with this one - it doesn't appear to have ever been tinkered with, and it's a long, long, long ways to any butcher shops up there. They usually just dress out the animals on the side of the road - this time of year there are elk and deer carcasses everywhere up there.

But.... even if I can drill the rivet out, I've still got that threaded piece at the back end that's pinned to the blade, and the pin has been ground off flush. (Difficult to make out the detail in the shots above. Full-sun photos below.)

Same process, but your saw sharpener guy should be able hold the blade with the back pin in tack; if you haven't checked already, he may be able to sharped the blade left in the frame.

P.S. Not carcasses everywhere; but been a few times coming out of the mountains with elk we quartered and packed to the rig - drove out to find a gut pile and a burned out warming fire within sight of the hard-stand road.

 

[LesserSon]

I don’t believe that split receiver is tapped. I think there is a missing wingnut. Once you get the rivet off the front end of the saw, give the threaded bolt a tap to break it free from rust and dried blood/fat, then pull the blade forward to extract the bolt from the receiver.
I think the pinned blade will be easier to remove from the bolt when the bolt is out of the frame.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

I was avoiding the use of that term because I didn't want to speculate - saws are definitely not an area of my expertise, gentlemen.
That part of it - the "pistol grip" - is what makes it different from every other "butcher saw" or "kitchen saw" I was able to find in any of the Atkins catalogs I downloaded from ITCL last night.

Well, it's not a true "pistol grip," the technical nomenclature used by many mfgrs and the federal government, which are usually not on the frame itself, but extended from the frame, but I didn't know what else to call it.

Did you see their de-horning saw? It's similar. And even more similar to the handles on the two-man beef saw. I'm not saying they're the same, just that the QMC saw is not out of Atkins' milieu.

 

[LesserSon]

Disston dehorning saw
Atkins dehorning saw

 

[Private Lugnutz]

...the fact it's riveted and pinned together causes me to wonder if perhaps this was some odd special-order item...

I'm still not sure why you keep finding this odd. The butcher saw in the 1939 Fed Spec is constructed the exact saw way. And Atkins had some butcher saws that were pinned or riveted at the front with some kind of wingnut or lever at the back. Unless I am mistaken.

 

[LesserSon]

I also think it possible that a regular D-handle could have broken, and a clever fellow with a rasp trimmed the remaining part into a pistol grip.

 

[LesserSon]

Here are six butcher saws. ALL are pinned/riveted at the front end.
Four are also riveted at the rear end.

Two have a tensioning bolt with a nut.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

^ Yeah, you beat me to it, LS. I just went to take photos of my Jennings (< 'Hacksaw' thread) for 4.c. It's pinned. The blade will swing when disconnected at the back, but it's not made to detach at the front.

 

[LesserSon]

And butcher saw blades were not precious - some weren’t even resharpened - just toss it and cut a new length off the 50’ roll.

 

[Oregon Dave]

^ I was avoiding the use of that term because I didn't want to speculate - saws are definitely not an area of my expertise, gentlemen.
That part of it - the "pistol grip" - is what makes it different from every other "butcher saw" or "kitchen saw" I was able to find in any of the Atkins catalogs I downloaded from ITCL last night.

The hand grip and the fact it's riveted and pinned together causes me to wonder if perhaps this was some odd special-order item that was never intended to be serviced? Or is that too far a stretch?

Anyway; when you get this project finished - am anxious to see the photos I know you will post.

Don't feel the rivets are difficult to remove, you'll find it easier than I think you imagine.

Is the back pin possibly a tapered pin?

 

[four.cycle]

^ Well... okay then! I thought it was some kind of oddball... I didn't realize they were all fashioned the same way.
Drilling the rivet out isn't a big issue, but driving that pin out from the back end of the blade might be an issue.
Hopefully they'll get back to me in the morning. If they can re-work it with that widget still attached at the tail end, that will solve that problem.

 

[Oregon Dave]

^ Well... okay then! I thought it was some kind of oddball... I didn't realize they were all fashioned the same way.
Drilling the rivet out isn't a big issue, but driving that pin out from the back end of the blade might be an issue.
Hopefully they'll get back to me in the morning. If they can re-work it with that widget still attached at the tail end, that will solve that problem.

As a sharpening option have you seen this:

Meat Saw Replacement Blades - 1"

lemproducts.com

Has 1" blades in three lengths.

I would bet that rear pin is tapered; same rust remover deal if corroded/stuck - should drift out.

 

[LesserSon]

Since I’ve dug out my butcher saws, I guess I’ll make two more restoration points.

This short-framed saw was among my grandmother’s kitchen gear. The blade is held by two peened pins. When I went to refinish it, I discovered the frame was broken under the handle, at the top screw hole. (I refinished the wood handle anyway.)

Reconstructing the crime, I think someone attempted to replace an original blade with one maybe an inch shorter, by bending the frame from a 90° angle to something more acute, and the steel tore. I’ve considered welding and grinding the break, but really, the angle of the wood handle as-is, is unergonomic.
A more ambitious repair would be to remove the current blade, restore the angle to 90°, and then weld and grind. NOT worth the effort, IMO, even for Grandma’s saw. She probably picked it up cheap at a flea market, anyway.

 

[LesserSon]

The highest-quality (and largest) of my butcher saws is this Simonds No261. It deserves a restoration.
I used my “careful” method to scrape off the rust (hematite) around the stamp with an old flat screwdriver (softer steel than modern ones), then brushed it by hand at four different angles with a stainless steel wire brush, leaving as much magnetite on the surface as possible.
IMO, this is the ideal, least destructive method of rust removal, and leaves a naturally passivated surface, not chemically different from what intentional blueing accomplishes.
I have read that boiling prior to scraping converts the hematite to magnetite, leaving a more evenly darkened surface. But boiling does not make loose hematite (or magnatite) stick to the unpassivated steel, so I don’t feel it worth the effort to boil something as cumbersome as a saw. The light spots will darken over time anyway.

 

[ranger08]

I have this 26 inch 7 tpi spear and Jackson saw no 24, it looks like it is a bit of a hybrid, nice spear and Jackson no 24 etch, notch back, however the medallion says "warranted" only with an eagle suggesting (USA), two of the screws are spilt nuts, two are domed, any idea of age, etch on the blade suggests 1880 onwards, split nuts suggest slightly earlier, and the medallion suggests handle is not original although holes line up, any thoughts

 

[RTM]

, any thoughts

If you treat it as a Disston, it is definitely a mutt. Looking just at your medallion, the sunken, larger diameter puts it at early. 1887 or so. Look at the medallion link from below

I think the saw handle is a #7 or #8, from the quick glance chart.

More awake eyes can do better, lots of subtleties in the medallion markings that the WS won’t have, but the size, amount it is sunk vs rimmed, and fasteners can be you guide.

Disstonian Institute.com -- Online Reference of Disston Saws

disston saws identifying and dating handsaws

www.disstonianinstitute.com

If you pull the handle off, you might find two sets of holes hidden. I have in the past.

 

[four.cycle]

Union Hardware Co., Torrington, Connecticut No. 10 hack saw

This one was a bit rough (top- last photo) so it got a bath in the evaporust for about a week, and then a going-over with brass brush and WD-40. Handle was kind of a mess so I cleaned it off and put some BLO on it. Original wing nut is missing, previous owner replaced it with a square nut.

 

[LesserSon]

I have this 26 inch 7 tpi spear and Jackson saw no 24, it looks like it is a bit of a hybrid, nice spear and Jackson no 24 etch, notch back, however the medallion says "warranted" only with an eagle suggesting (USA), two of the screws are spilt nuts, two are domed, any idea of age, etch on the blade suggests 1880 onwards, split nuts suggest slightly earlier, and the medallion suggests handle is not original although holes line up, any thoughts

Here is a Disston No7, two S&Js, and two other early saws for comparison.
Every part of your saw - except the medallion - looks S&J enough to me. I’m not sure whether the lambs tongue that shows on my two varied, died out in S&J designs, or is just not as pronounced on yours. But if genetic testing of a wood sample was worth the cost, I would still wager your saw handle would turn out to be European beech, not American beech. IDK why, but my two S&J saws’ totes are mirror images of each other. I mean, the medalion and screws are mounted from the opposite sides. Maybe the light-colored one is a replacement. If so, it’s a good copy
A Disston No7 looks similar because it is the closest to the traditional English pattern; Henry Disston was born in England and the No7 was the first pattern he made in the USA, later developing other designs.
The bottom two saws are also English pattern, though at least one was made in Philadelphia. I think I researched both, but don’t recall what I found.

 

[ranger08]

Here is a Disston No7, two S&Js, and two other early saws for comparison.
Every part of your saw - except the medallion - looks S&J enough to me. I’m not sure whether the lambs tongue that shows on my two varied, died out in S&J designs, or is just not as pronounced on yours. But if genetic testing of a wood sample was worth the cost, I would still wager your saw handle would turn out to be European beech, not American beech. IDK why, but my two S&J saws’ totes are mirror images of each other. I mean, the medalion and screws are mounted from the opposite sides. Maybe the light-colored one is a replacement. If so, it’s a good copy
A Disston No7 looks similar because it is the closest to the traditional English pattern; Henry Disston was born in England and the No7 was the first pattern he made in the USA, later developing other designs.
The bottom two saws are also English pattern, though at least one was made in Philadelphia. I think I researched both, but don’t recall what I found.

Nice saws, yes I reckon it’s an SJ handle, why a warranted eagle medallion I’ve no idea,

 

[LesserSon]

I tried editing my last post to accommodate RTM’s assessment about the tote. (It didn’t save right.)
Mainly, totes being hand-made, comparing examples from the production of a single maker would be nearly as variable as comparing that of two or more makers. So maybe it is a Disston tote, but it can’t be proven by the pattern - the No7 looks the way it does because of its English origins.

 

[four.cycle]

I may have committed a mortal sin in the saw collecting world. I picked up the tote from an old Atkins that's been sitting on the dry sink in the kitchen for a month or so, and noticed tiny little piles of very fine sawdust where it had been sitting.
As I really don't have time to deal with something that will require time, I opened up a gallon of oil-based stain and dropped it in.
I figure that should be a toxic enough environment to kill what ever it is that was eating that thing.

It's going to be very dark. It was the first one I grabbed.

 

[LesserSon]

Well, it IS your saw - your color choice. It may take a long time for the volatiles to evaporate - hopefully you’ve got an outdoor location where that can happen.

 

[ranger08]

Here is a Disston No7, two S&Js, and two other early saws for comparison.
Every part of your saw - except the medallion - looks S&J enough to me. I’m not sure whether the lambs tongue that shows on my two varied, died out in S&J designs, or is just not as pronounced on yours. But if genetic testing of a wood sample was worth the cost, I would still wager your saw handle would turn out to be European beech, not American beech. IDK why, but my two S&J saws’ totes are mirror images of each other. I mean, the medalion and screws are mounted from the opposite sides. Maybe the light-colored one is a replacement. If so, it’s a good copy
A Disston No7 looks similar because it is the closest to the traditional English pattern; Henry Disston was born in England and the No7 was the first pattern he made in the USA, later developing other designs.
The bottom two saws are also English pattern, though at least one was made in Philadelphia. I think I researched both, but don’t recall what I found.

I don’t suppose you could measure the diameter of the SJ medallion for me, something tells me they are the same

 

[LesserSon]

Yeah, as I was posting, I thought of that…
both look to be 31/32”

 

[four.cycle]

Sure... I'll just hang it from a hook out in the garage. Not a problem.
What did that? Little weevils? Teeny-tiny little holes all over the thing. I had assumed they were long gone.