Lights flickering on another circuit.
- Thread starter Jsf721
- Start date
What's the history of the previous problem? What was "fixed"?
Pics of outside needed. How weathered is the meter pan and service entrance conductors?
Inspection? If yes, need an outside disco or metermain. What year was this service put in/upgraded? May need to upgrade grounding electrodes/bonding.
The fix may not be a new panel, but this one needs some attention at a minimum anyway.
How high is the centerline of the main cb above the floor in this pic?
I would put a 200amp 40 space, 60circuit panel. Clean up that birds nest. That leaves you with 16 circuits open.
Probably replace 1/2 the cbs. Some are old Murrays. Many look recently installed.
A sub-panel could remove some of this congestion. Not sure how practical now that may be.
Need to define the full scope of work before anyone could provide any $$. And of course, if not from LI, any costs you receive on GJ are mostly useless.
Pics of outside needed. How weathered is the meter pan and service entrance conductors?
Inspection? If yes, need an outside disco or metermain. What year was this service put in/upgraded? May need to upgrade grounding electrodes/bonding.
The fix may not be a new panel, but this one needs some attention at a minimum anyway.
How high is the centerline of the main cb above the floor in this pic?
I would put a 200amp 40 space, 60circuit panel. Clean up that birds nest. That leaves you with 16 circuits open.
Probably replace 1/2 the cbs. Some are old Murrays. Many look recently installed.
A sub-panel could remove some of this congestion. Not sure how practical now that may be.
Need to define the full scope of work before anyone could provide any $$. And of course, if not from LI, any costs you receive on GJ are mostly useless.
The Bean
Well-known member
Aww... i was just about to put in a bid. 
️
️Thanks Very much. The outside meter box was replaced after hurricane sandy so about 2012. I got a new meter cabinet, and new piping up to the customer side of the turnbuckles.
What's the best brand of panel?
Not sure what the disco is or the metermain.
THe sparky said the buss bar in my panel was the issue both times. Previously the issue was similar but worse. Mt lights were pulsing as was the exhaust fan in the bathroom. This time is was lights flickering in the kitchen. First time you could hear a buzzing in the panel and see arcing. This time there was no noise but he said it was just not as bad but the same issue. He installed a split breaker above and it solved the issue.
After the first fix he said if it happens again I suggest a new panel.
Do you think that is wrong?
sparky 1971
Well-known member
Without seeing everything and knowing what is required by the AHJ, nobody is going to be able to tell you much. There is one place I can think of where in about a miles drive I can go through four jurisdictions, city, county, state, and another city and depending on where and which side of the road you are on, the job could go from $2000.00 for a panel swap up to $15000.00 for a service update if you are lucky enough to have a single story house with an unfinished basement. If not, the price will only go up.
Why would you pay an electrician to come in and tidy up you existing panel to turn around and pay him to rip it all out and re-install in a new panel?
Clean up how ? What exactly?
Clean up the birds nest how? thanks
There is so much work involved to clean this up that a new and larger panel might as well be part of it and would make it easier. Best chance of a nice clean job when finished.
- Many cables enter w/o connectors.
- Many cables aren't stripped of jacket after entering panel.....not a code issue, but makes conductor routing a PIA.
- Could put the new main cb on the bottom to eliminate 3 large conductors filling the gutters.
- I would raise the new longer panel up several inches to gain cable/conductor length to aid in routing the conductors neatly inside the panel. The newer panel may also have a greater length to effectively accomplish this.
I would use a Siemens panel with copper buss. Inspect which existing cbs could be re-used and others discarded/replaced. Re-using old could be perfectly fine but, if any were damaged at the buss connection, you would be subjecting the new panel's buss to the same condition you have now.
Would this work be inspected? (Determines if any newer NEC requirements have to get done.)
No but I did see arcing the first time.
I was planning on using a licensed electrician and since replacing existing I did not plan on getting it inspected.There is so much work involved to clean this up that a new and larger panel might as well be part of it and would make it easier. Best chance of a nice clean job when finished.
- Many cables enter w/o connectors.
- Many cables aren't stripped of jacket after entering panel.....not a code issue, but makes conductor routing a PIA.
- Could put the new main cb on the bottom to eliminate 3 large conductors filling the gutters.
- I would raise the new longer panel up several inches to gain cable/conductor length to aid in routing the conductors neatly inside the panel. The newer panel may also have a greater length to effectively accomplish this.
I would use a Siemens panel with copper buss. Inspect which existing cbs could be re-used and others discarded/replaced. Re-using old could be perfectly fine but, if any were damaged at the buss connection, you would be subjecting the new panel's buss to the same condition you have now.
Would this work be inspected? (Determines if any newer NEC requirements have to get done.)
I will have the work done to the current code.
rlitman
Well-known member
Ok, so you have a bypass meter pan (current requirements for some time). Is there a disconnect or breaker outside by the meter?
mm0822 has the best plan of action. As for re-using breakers, the more I think about it, the less I like the idea. You have multiple bus positions that are failing, which means both your bus AND the breakers clamped onto it are corroding. And with the way that residential breakers hold onto the bus bars, there's just no good way to repair corrosion. The best the manufacturer will recommend is to replace parts and be careful not to wipe off the tiny dab of grease placed on the new breakers at the factory, because it's the magic that keeps things working.
Is your panel on an exterior unconditioned garage wall? Does it pick up condensation? I'm wondering if there's something about it's environment that's harsher than a typical panel's that led to its premature failure (since it isn't antique). If it were me replacing it, I'd stick a corrosion inhibitor in there before it's closed up.
Technically, a like for like replacement is a repair and shouldn't require an inspection. (I had an inspector tell this was wrong b/c it is a main panel. BS, I say! Only had it inspected b/c it was part of a house sale.)
Going to a larger space panel is trivial, IMO. However, the new panel won't have an inspection sticker on it. (That's how my customer's repair got flagged.) Not a big deal for now.
Replacing all of the cbs is the easiest way to establish a new baseline......leaves no doubts. Since they are all standard cbs (no electronic versions), cost is trivial.
JohnX14
Well-known member
Depends on your jurisdiction. If you replace a duplex receptacle or single pole switch or even a circuit breaker in MA, a permit is required. I have a friend who is an electrician and the State board is fining him $500 for replacing a circuit breaker without a permit....I don't really agree with this, but it's what we have....
Why replace a panel for no reason? Once they start digging past that mess of wires They'll be able to see what condition the panel is actually in and either continue cleaning it up or say yeah this is junk it needs to be replaced.
Have a look at some of the other panel pictures people have posted in the forum. You don't have cables with their jackets on them going that far in, there's a bunch of marettes in there, wires that are way too long and should be cut back rather then bent back and forth to take up the length. If there are any circuits in there that are no longer used the wires should be pulled out etc.
Whatever the local requirements are, you need to live by or take on risk.
A permit required to replace a cb would easily triple the cost of a simple repair.
What great way to loose jobs. You know the next guy called won't pull a permit.
And how did the permit policia find out?
Guessing it has an aluminum buss. They get corroded. Here we could replace that panel without adding an exterior disconnect.
Seeing that rat's nest would make me question every single connection in the panel. It screams of years of DIY.
Seeing that rat's nest would make me question every single connection in the panel. It screams of years of DIY.
And everything else in the house.
I have been living here since 1991 and I have never had anyone but a licensed electrician work on the box or any electric in my home.
Give them a kick in the ****.
Don't call any of them back........that's a trunk-slammer special they've been delivering!
reader2580
Well-known member
How much does an electrical permit cost in NJ? Here in Minnesota the minimum permit cost is $81 which would probably be the only cost for a permit to change a breaker. I don't know of any electrician that would change a breaker for a third of $81.
3x 81.....not 81/3.
Im talking about the extra time to fill it, drop it off, pay, schedule inspection.....vs just git it done and be done.
sparky 1971
Well-known member
Licenses don't mean much other than in most cases, a test was passed. I would ask to see that license. There are plenty of people with a drivers license that can't drive, this is no different.
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sparky 1971
Well-known member
In town, we are supposed to get a permit for everything. Where the state has jurisdiction we are supposed to get a permit for anything that requires getting in the panel, but I doubt that would included changing a breaker. The only time I get a permit is when the POCO is involved and they won't turn the power on without an inspection and release. Permits and inspections are a pain in the ****
In Nj a new service has to be up to today standards. New panel will need afci breakers for every circuit. Outside needs a disconnect either with the meter pan or separately.
Cost is approximately $3000 to 3500.
Best panel In my experience is square D QO
Not homeline sold inbig box stores
Cost is approximately $3000 to 3500.
Best panel In my experience is square D QO
Not homeline sold inbig box stores
If I get the homeline at a supply house is it OK?
What if I get the QO at a box store?
rlitman
Well-known member
The source doesn't matter, but what I'm reading online, QO has tin plated copper bus bars (tin plated aluminum neutral and ground bars), while Homeline uses tin plated aluminum bus bars. I wouldn't touch bare unplated copper or bare aluminum bus bars. Bare copper is easy to spot. Recognizing tin plating on aluminum is anything but easy.
A new service sure with surge suppressor and gfci recept near panel, too.
AFCIs not required on an upgrade if branch circuits not altered.
Glad I'm not the only one!
How much work have you had done? If they're who created that mess.. yikes.
sparky 1971
Well-known member
We have one city with a rouge AHJ that requires AFCI's for panel changes. I've never changed a panel there, so have no idea if it's an actual ordinance or some prickstick that doesn't know any better, but I've heard it from two people, one of which is a real electrical inspector from another jurisdiction that lives in the city in question. He found out first hand when he swapped out his own panel.
Why a gfci receptacle near the panel ? I saw this somewhere and now you mention it. Whats the reason ?
Lower level (slab is lowest) House was rewired after hurricane sandy. Had 4’ of water in the house. Previous renovated kitchen required significant power upgrades. That’s it.
So this is what I should show the guy? Pic Found on line Looks like a ton of work to get from where I am to here. Other than it looks GJ pretty as long as it’s safe and functional to I need to burn $ to pretty up my panel ? 
You dont/won't have a new service as in new construction, current codes, no grand-fathering of previous (lesser) requirements.
You will have a repair and at best, it will meet prior code requirements but not today's code.
Recept is part of recent code changes.