What bulbs? T5, T8, T12?

[cobrar97]

I have a garage that's 24'x20' with a 9' ceiling.

Assuming T12s out not the thing now-days...do I want T5 or T8? And do I want to high-output version of them?
I do automotive detailing. I use halogen portable lights for my work, but I need the garage well lit in general.

 

[mike944]

I vote T5.....but you'll pay for them. I picked up a bunch of 4-lamp T5 fixtures recently for nothing. I mounted only 2 of them in a single-car garage (8 bulbs), and holy F. are they bright!! Seriously, its like daylight in there. (I think T5 only comes in H.O. version)

Although, bang-for-the-buck, T8's are probably better. You'll need a lot more of them, but they're probably cheaper overall.

 

[cobrar97]

Seems like T5 is the latest and greatest, but it doesn't seem like maybe people use them. Wonder why?
I was looking at some T5 fixtures that cover the bulb, shoot the light to the top of the fixture, and then ramp the light back down. I would think this would help with the intense bulb but still provide the awsome light.

HERE IT IS

 

[Falcon67]

I used T8s with 6500K bulbs in my shop.

 

[mike944]

Seems like T5 is the latest and greatest, but it doesn't seem like maybe people use them. Wonder why?......

I think not too many people use them, because you can't just walk down to your local big-box store and buy either the fixtures, or the bulbs. They just aren't easily available.

That, and also they're expensive, because most, if not all of the fixtures currently available are commercial-quality, and expensive. I think that eventually they will catch on, and somebody will start making cheap (and crappy) consumer versions, and start selling them in big-box stores, and once they become easy to get and cheap, I think they'll catch on.

By the way, i found out there are both regular, and HO versions of T5. mine are H.O.

 

[StarWolve]

I'm new here, but will post pictures and an introduction later this week once I find what box my camera is packed in...

I have a similar question. I just moved into a house that has a 2 car garage (I'll get accurate dimensions tonight) and it is very poorly lit - only 2 older CFL's and the garage door opener light. I want to put in T8's, but I'm concerned about the ceiling height. The ceiling is about 16' overhead. My (tenative) plan was to go with 4 2-bulb T-8's with 6500 bulbs, and if that wasn't enough light over the work area (I will be working my my motorcycles in one side until I can afford a new detached workshop) I will have to hang a better lighting solution over that area only.

I hope I've described it well enough for some recommendations, if not, I'll start a new thread tonight with pictures to get some better ideas.

 

[StarWolve]

I took some measurements of the new Garage. It is 24' x 24', and has a 13.5' ceiling.

The "1 Watt per Sq Ft" rule gives me 576 Watts. Most of the T-8 lights I'm finding are 32 Watt bulbs. So the goal would be 18 bulbs. I'm thinking that 16 will suffice. With the 13.5' ceilings, will 4 4-bulb T-8 Flourescents work?

Also - any recommendation on a brand? I usually shop at Lowes, since they give 10% discount to military at my local store. I'm still looking at well over $200 if I go this route.

I was thinking about 4 of these:
http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?acti...Id=163723-337-8TSS-232-120V-EB81-U&lpage=none

Any help comments would be appreciated, I'm taking the day off from work tomorrow to do this project, since my father is in town and will be able to help me out.

 

[cobrar97]

What is important, depending on what you do in the garage, is footcandles. Any type of light with have the highest amount of footcandles closest to the fixture and them decrease as you get further away. By overlapping light-spreads, you help equalize everything.

BUT...in my opinion, you will get a more even footcandle average if you use 2-bulb fixtures and spread them out versus using 4-bulb units. This is unless you are working directly under the 4-bulb units only and don't want overall lighting.

For example, in my 24'x22', I'll be using 9 2-bulb fixtures. I'll be using T-5 high-output bulbs. This will give me an average of 68 footcandles in the garage. I will have up 74 footcandles in the areas directly under the light, which are evenly spaced.

They say a work area (workbench) should have no less than 50 footcandles. Detail work should be around 75. Extreme detail should be around 100.

There are programs available that you input the bulbs you're using, the garage size with ceiling height, and the working plane. It then spaces the fixtures and gives you the footcandle information for the entire area and also for specific areas.

lithonia.com is a good place to look at products.

 

[StarWolve]

2 of the 2 bulb units are just a few dollars more than the 4 bulb unit. I could get 8 of the 2 bulb units, and distribute them more evenly. It would mean a lot more work for installation, but would probably be worth it in the long run.

I'm not going to be doing extreme detail work, but I would like to be able to see when I'm doing normal maintenance tasks on the bikes and the cars. With the current lighting, I can barely read the controls on the water softener and furnace (in the rear of the garage - not ideal, but it will work for now) when the overhead door is shut. I still plan on adding some auxilary lighting around the workshop area if needed, mainly in the form of under cabinet lighting.

Any links to some type of lighting planning program? I'd love to try a few different layouts prior to starting this project.

 

[StarWolve]

I think I may have found a decent free lighting planning tool:
http://www.dial.de/CMS/English/Articles/DIALux/Download/Download_d_e_fr_it_es_cn.html

I'm going to give it a shot, and see what I can come up with.

 

[rsanter]

currently the most cost effective (to buy and operate) are the T8 HO fixtures and bulbs

bob

 

[logical]

I took some measurements of the new Garage. It is 24' x 24', and has a 13.5' ceiling.

The "1 Watt per Sq Ft" rule gives me 576 Watts. Most of the T-8 lights I'm finding are 32 Watt bulbs. So the goal would be 18 bulbs. I'm thinking that 16 will suffice. With the 13.5' ceilings, will 4 4-bulb T-8 Flourescents work?

Also - any recommendation on a brand? I usually shop at Lowes, since they give 10% discount to military at my local store. I'm still looking at well over $200 if I go this route.

I was thinking about 4 of these:
http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?acti...Id=163723-337-8TSS-232-120V-EB81-U&lpage=none

Any help comments would be appreciated, I'm taking the day off from work tomorrow to do this project, since my father is in town and will be able to help me out.

My garage is an L-shaped 3+ car space that is around 1100 square feet. My ceiling is 13' or so. I have ten 2-bulb 4 foot T-8's (20 bulbs). It is painted off white which really helps. I consider it really well lit for general use. I actually think you'd be really good with as few as 12 bulbs if the walls/ceiling are finished and white. Mine's brighter than the pic looks. I think the one you link to has the wrong picture and/or description. It says 2 bulbs but shows 4. If it is really four 4 footers, I'd maybe go with 2 bulb units so you could space them out more.

 

[StarWolve]

I got in touch with a local electrical supply company that my employer uses. They did up a spec for me, and I'm going over there tomorrow to review it. They're a little more expensive than Lowe's, but it's commercial grade equipment, rather than residential. They're still giving me a good deal, due to the volume of business my employer does with them. The diaLux program works really well, but you need to know exactly what units you're working with, and I had some trouble figuring out where to find US models, instead of European. Still, a neat piece of software for free.

 

[cobrar97]

StarWolve...I'd be very interested in knowing their recommendation. Also...ask about the T-5 stuff vs the T-8. Thanks.

 

[slamed tudor]

We sell alot of both t5-t8 stuff. The lighting company that we use is williams light fixtures, They recomend that your ceiling hight be atleast 12' for t5's. Yes you can install them in lower areas but the lighting will "hot" in areas, meaning REAL birght. One of my friends just put up a 30x60 and we sold him twelve 8'-t8s without shades and man is it bright! Not to mention he saves alot of money by going wiht the t8 fixture.

 

[StarWolve]

StarWolve...I'd be very interested in knowing their recommendation. Also...ask about the T-5 stuff vs the T-8. Thanks.

I asked about T-5, but the company recommended T-8 as a more cost effective solution. Again, this garage will hopefully be a temporary workspace until I can build a detached solution, and then I'll turn it over to my wife to park her cars and the mowers in.

I believe what they recommended was 3 units, each 8' long with 4 bulbs, that were T-8. They come with 4100 bulbs in the box, and have en electronic ballast that will handle the cold (Upstate NY, but it is an insulated and heated garage)

The recommendation on spacing was to go 6' apart, the long way running depth-wise into the garage, and centered. This actually makes a lot of sense in my garage, as the door will cover the front when its open, and the water softener and furnace are in the rear, so the light will be well centered. This will also mean that I can reuse the wiring that is already in the center of the ceiling for the 2 sockets that are already in place.

I will try to take pictures of the before and after. The electrician and grounds manager here at my employer also recommended some LED solutions for under the cabinets, to add some decent work lighting for detailed jobs. I don't think that the overall spec will be too little, but if it's just not enough for detail work, I'll look into the additional lighting.

 

[StarWolve]

I made a mistake on what the spec was. It should have been 6 units, not 3. I was jotting down so many numbers on the phone, that I made a mistake. I picked up the units this morning, 100' of 12g cable for them, and the guy thew in a bunch of staples and plastic guards for the knock-outs. Hoping to install tomorrow morning, will take pictures then.

 

[cobrar97]

StaWolve...so what the specs on the stuff you bought? And what sizes and quantities?

 

[StarWolve]

Ok - Update, now that the lights are up - and I apologize for the thread hijack, but here's the info.

The lights were GenLyte Thomas, Day-Brite Lighting, and the model # was TT232-UNV - they are T8's in a 8' long configuration, with 2 rows of 4' tubes per fixture (4 bulbs per fixture.) The quantity was 6 for the garage, spaced in 2 rows of 3.

Here's a few pictures to explain better than I can put into words

Before (and note the garage door is open):

(That was all that was there - 2 sockets in a 24x24 garage with a 13' ceiling)

Fixtures, and my father who helped with the entire project (Thanks Dad!!!):

Scuttle-hole to attic and the ladders - FYI: 8' ladders don't work that well for 13' ceilings, but they got the job done:

Attic:

First light up using the original socket - compared to the original lighting:

Layout of the lights:

After:

 

[Weedwaka]

WOW !! What a difference. Money / time well spent !!

 

[79Sleeper]

StarWolve,
If you get a chance you should test out a standard am/fm radio out there with the lights on and off and report back on rfi!


Troy

 

[StarWolve]

79Sleeper - I'll try it tonight. The lights are pretty high up, but I can tell you that FM reception ***** with the lights on. I haven't tried it with the lights off, but I will tonight.

 

[StarWolve]

StarWolve,
If you get a chance you should test out a standard am/fm radio out there with the lights on and off and report back on rfi!


Troy

Well, that was eye opening. The lights DEFINITELY kill the FM radio reception. Funny, I never had that problem with the old T12's in my basement, and they were a lot closer to the same exact radio. I guess it will be iPod or CD's for the music in the garage! I'm going to try moving the radio to the other wall sometime this week and see if its any better near a window. Oh well, small price to pay for the lights!

 

[Mike F]

Here is a link to a thread that, while a couple of years old, gives a lot of information on the subject. Hopefully it will answer some questions- I know it did for me. http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7426&highlight=flourescent+lights
Rocco's input was particularly valuable.

 

[badhst]

Cobrar97,

My Shop is 40' x 50' and I installed 15 -8' tandem 4's (4- 4' t-8's) and it is so bright, that if you walk outside after dark, it takes a minute for your eyes to adjust to the darkness. I'd recommend them highly!! I bought mine from an electrical supply company and they ran about $48 each less the bulbs. They are cold start and good for -20 degrees. Your shop should only need about 8 fixtures. I would not recommend buying from Lowes,Menards or Home Depot, as my neighbor bought his from Menards, and even being cold start fixtures, he has replaced over half of the ballasts and they hum really bad. His shop is the same size as mine and he has 16 fixtures (T12's) and it's not nearly as bright.

 

[badhst]

Cobrar97,

My Shop is 40' x 50' and I installed 15 -8' tandem 4's (4- 4' t-8's) and it is so bright, that if you walk outside after dark, it takes a minute for your eyes to adjust to the darkness. I'd recommend them highly!! I bought mine from an electrical supply company and they ran about $48 each less the bulbs. They are cold start and good for -20 degrees. Your shop should only need about 8 fixtures. I would not recommend buying from Lowes,Menards or Home Depot, as my neighbor bought his from Menards, and even being cold start fixtures, he has replaced over half of the ballasts and they hum really bad. His shop is the same size as mine and he has 16 fixtures (T12's) and it's not nearly as bright. I might also mention that I have a 10 1/2' ceiling!!

 

[Falcon67]

A good point on quality fixtures. I have bought 8 T8 fixtures from Lowes in the last year and of those, 2 fixtures (an 8' tandem and a 36" dual) have required ballast replacement. The replacement ballasts were bought at Lowes also, cost as much or more than the original fixture and have worked fine since the install. I used a Lowes purchased ballast to upgrade our kitchen 4 bulb 4' fixture to T8 and it has worked fine ever since. Much better than the old mag ballast setup. So it's a bit hit and miss.

 

[StarWolve]

79Sleeper - I think I found a flaw in my wiring that may be causing the RFI. I checked with my electrician at work, and he recommended that I check the ground connection on the lights. I remember that when we put the first light up, there was no ground wire run to the old CFL socket. I think that this lack of a good ground might be causing the RFI. I'm going to get the ladders out this weekend and check everything over again. If I can't find a ground, I'll make one and see if it improves FM reception. (All this for some tunes in the garage, music IS that important when turning wrenches!)

 

[Dragster Racer]

I usually check my outlets with an indicator. It checks for ground also. My T8's all are plugged into grounded outlets, and I have no RFI with my HD lights.(Commercial Electric 140-870, 2 4' blubs each) Mine are new, and I hope that I do not have the ballast problems everyone else is having. The nice thing is that with the 2 year warranty, I just unplug it and take it back.

 

[79Sleeper]

Well, that was eye opening. The lights DEFINITELY kill the FM radio reception. Funny, I never had that problem with the old T12's in my basement, and they were a lot closer to the same exact radio.....

I think I found a flaw in my wiring that may be causing the RFI. I checked with my electrician at work, and he recommended that I check the ground connection on the lights. I remember that when we put the first light up, there was no ground wire run to the old CFL socket. I think that this lack of a good ground might be causing the RFI. I'm going to get the ladders out this weekend and check everything over again. If I can't find a ground, I'll make one and see if it improves FM reception.

Did you have any luck StarWolve? The ballast ground is said to be "critical" to the operation of the emi filter! A paper on grounding ballasts:

http://www.advancetransformer.com/uploads/resources/WP-8020-R02_07-09m.pdf

My T8's all are plugged into grounded outlets, and I have no RFI with my HD lights.(Commercial Electric 140-870, 2 4' blubs each) Mine are new, and I hope that I do not have the ballast problems everyone else is having.

I'm not sure what the difference is, but I have tested some of the CE 140-857's and can confirm that these also don't seem to produce any noticeable rfi interference.



It has been advised by some that in the fluorescent lighting world the residential lines of fixtures/ballasts = inexpensive and low-end, and that the commercial lines = quality and trouble free. Oddly, I am able to find a wide range of quality, from **** to high quality, in either line. I think the residential/commercial designation has more to do with RFI/EMI levels and a few other specs and not so much quality.

Ironically, it appears the only foolproof method to ensure RFI/EMI interference won't be a problem is to verify that the ballasts/fixtures are rated for "consumer" use and are certified as "Class B" under the FCC title 47 part 18 RFI/EMI limits. Owner feedback seems to indicate that the "Class A" non-consumer/commercial rated ballasts may or may not provide what most would consider sufficient RFI filtering. Fortunately, the Class A or B rating is generally marked right on the ballast. FWIW, looking at the actual numbers from the FCC regulations, 18.305-(c), the non-consumer limits are roughly 3 times the consumer limits.


Troy

 

[cobrar97]

I decided to go with T5HO lights. Although no one recommended them, I wanted to try something different so then I'd know.

I get pics up as soon as it's ready. I hooked one up, and they sure are bright.

 

[rocco]

to quote myself from another thread:

Rules of thumb :

* rows of lights must be parallel to the opening direction of the garage doors and parking spot.

* T8 and Standard T5 (28w, 4ft lamp) lamped fixtures should be used with mounting heights of 7ft - 14ft with reflectors that have an appropriate distribution paterns for the mounting height.

* T5HO Lamped fixtures should be used when the mounting height is 14ft or more, appropriate reflectors providing the proper distribution patern should also be used as to not create pools of light and/or poor light levels. This same rule of thumb should be used when considering HID (metal halide or high pressure sodium lowbays and highbays)(acceptable lowbay mounting height = 12-15ft, acceptable highbay mounting height, 14ft+)

*T5 and T5HO fixtures do not like cold temperatures, stick to T8 or HID depending on the layout if space is unheated. (there are cold weather capable luminaires with T5/T5HO lamping available, but cost is quite prohibitive, specialy for residential purposes.)

*Use 4100K or higher color temp to achieve proper color within the space.

*if using t8 lamps, use the "super T8" lamp that is now available on the market, it produces 3100 lumens instead of 2800 and is still rated at 32w, it also have a much longer rated life @ 36000 hours. 10% more light for the same wattage just makes sense.

 

[hevnbnd]

Back to life...

I am building a shop that is 26x40 with 12' ceilings. I found a deal on these fixtures. I can get them for only $15 bucks each. Any input on if I should go for these instead of finding some T8s?

 

[trythis]

T5s are great, but the fixtures are 46 inches. What bulbs does it use and how expensive are they?

If its cold where you need them, forget it, get t8s

 

[hevnbnd]

I am in Arkansas so we see temps around 30 maybe 20 days a year.

 

[haugy]

I've never seen the 46.6 fixture. Could that be a typo for a 48.6" tube? If not, I would imagine finding 46" bulbs would be difficult in the future.

 

[ixlr8]

I have been looking at some T5 fixtures... in the fixtures I have seen, the T5 bulbs are shorter than the T8's. So in a '4ft' fixture in a T8 is indeed 4ft, in a T5 fixture it is going to be shorter, so 46.6" does not surprise me.

 

[hillbilly1]

If you want realtime comparisons, Lowes uses T-8's for there overhead store lighting, while Home Depot uses T-5's.

 

[Ratchety]

I decided to go with T5HO lights. Although no one recommended them, I wanted to try something different so then I'd know.

I get pics up as soon as it's ready. I hooked one up, and they sure are bright.

I went new school, I have two T5 4' fixtures coming from Vault Garage sometime this week... Chad Haas himself recommended only two for my 22 x 23 two car garage. The majority of my ceiling is 8' tall. He claims they will be more than enough. Pricey, but they do have a lens over the fixture to disperse light better. (no glare)

www.vaultgarage.com/garage-lighting/

 

[ixlr8]

I went new school, I have two T5 4' fixtures coming from Vault Garage sometime this week... Chad Haas himself recommended only two for my 22 x 23 two car garage. The majority of my ceiling is 8' tall. He claims they will be more than enough. Pricey, but they do have a lens over the fixture to disperse light better. (no glare)

www.vaultgarage.com/garage-lighting/

Very nice.. but I think 'pricey' is an understatement!!! Let us know how they work out. Besides the price.. my biggest issue is finding the T5 bulbs, especially the HO bulbs. I did buy a 3' T5 fixture, it came with a bulb, I like the output... I sure hope I can find a replacement bulb when this one fails. The place that sold the fixture does not stock the bulbs... and none of the other stores in my area do either.