Upgrading residential service- review and feedback

[tarbellb]

Sanity and best practices check here

House is located in Bend Oregon, built in 1971, with a outdated 125amp Split Bus panel. I also have 60amps going out to the shop via direct bury line.

Scope: New 400amp meter/main service line from the Poco transformer + 200amp panel upgrade to the house + 200amp panel to the shop

Transformer to Shop
_ 30" deep trench from the Poco transformer to the corner of my shop ( just under the max pull length of 150')
_ 3" diameter PVC conduit with 3x Fiberglass 90's required by the Poco due to length of pull
_ 400amp metered panel on exterior of shop- 200amp to shop, 200amp to house
_ New feeder wire to existing 100amp panel in shop
_ New 60/80/100 amp connects for new equipment???

Shop to House
_ 24" deep trench from 400amp panel to exterior of house 75' run
_ 2" diameter PVC and 90s
_ New 200amp disconnect panel exterior mount
_ New feeder wire to existing panel location
_ Upgrade existing 125amp panel to 200amp panel

Old meter/buried lines/panel will all be disconnected and removed/buried


I have some questions about a few of the process and best practices.

Questions:

a) Looking at panel options, my PoCo requires a manual link bypass and Ring type - Any suggestions, leaning towards Square D Homeline or Eaton BR series unless someone can make a strong case why I should consider the QO or CH?

b) Im going to be running some heavy load machines that have 100amp start up demand then tapers to 50amp off a VFD also a 60amp continuous demand machine
_what is a good way to run power to these from the new panel, do I run a separate 60 and 100amp disconnect, or just a wall outlet wired to those breakers in the box?

c) see any issues with the overall system, blind spots?

Thanks

 

[mm08822]

Awesome to provide the sketch! Many q's dont need to be asked.

Why 400 if you've living off of 125 for years? Wouldn't 320 be more than enough ($$)?

Go to to your POCO'S website and get their electric service requirements. It normally includes a list of accepted service equipment.

You probably dont need a combined meter/main and could be done as two cheaper parts....but check.

 

[ericm]

I'm served by the same power company. The electricians used Homeline panels for house, garage and shop which is what I wanted.

With the shop being 550' away the electricians advised me that it would cost less to have PacificCorp run the wires from the pole to the shop. They would only go about 300' so I have a transformer there. All the conduit, vault, trenching was on me.

Due to being a farm the shop is considered commercial. Putting a meter on it is costing me a minimum $75/month charge in addition to the $5k fee for the transformer. I also had to pay $5k to upgrade the transformer on the house to support our solar array if I didn't want to cut it from 15kw to 6.

You'll have to ask the PoCo about the big machines. From memory they want to know about any motors over 3hp, or maybe it's 5. The electrician had to give them a load calc based on info from me, which they used to size the transformer.

 

[tarbellb]

Awesome to provide the sketch! Many q's dont need to be asked.

Why 400 if you've living off of 125 for years? Wouldn't 320 be more than enough ($$)?

Glad you like the sketch, im a visual guy....

Not sure 320 is even a option out here? Plus the shop needs 200amps and the house can benefit from future proofing for EV charging or hot tub or mini split updates

Go to to your POCO'S website and get their electric service requirements. It normally includes a list of accepted service equipment.

Pacific Power my PoCo doesnt list approved equipment, only requirements - manual lever shut off and ring type meter

You probably dont need a combined meter/main and could be done as two cheaper parts....but check.

So something like a 200amp metered panel and a 200amp disconnect? Ill check on pricing

 

[tarbellb]

I'm served by the same power company. The electricians used Homeline panels for house, garage and shop which is what I wanted.

With the shop being 550' away the electricians advised me that it would cost less to have PacificCorp run the wires from the pole to the shop. They would only go about 300' so I have a transformer there. All the conduit, vault, trenching was on me.

Due to being a farm the shop is considered commercial. Putting a meter on it is costing me a minimum $75/month charge in addition to the $5k fee for the transformer. I also had to pay $5k to upgrade the transformer on the house to support our solar array if I didn't want to cut it from 15kw to 6.

You'll have to ask the PoCo about the big machines. From memory they want to know about any motors over 3hp, or maybe it's 5. The electrician had to give them a load calc based on info from me, which they used to size the transformer.

Yeah ive been running feasibility at this point based on all the things you just mentioned. Its looking very promising after the site visit and having the utilities marked.

My transformer has "plenty of power to send 400amps" to my property, 1st hurdle, good news, transformers are $5-10K

Trenching and conduit fall on me as well, luckily my neighbors are ok with me trenching and backfilling in the open space behind our houses, 2nd big hurdle, no Easements or major obstacles for trench and under the 150' which would require a new Pedestal

PoCo estimator has been very easy to work with so far and is not requiring much more then "I need more power to use a ______", 3rd big hurdle


Now most of the unknowns are how the trenching will go, we are in prime lava rock country. My neighbor that im doing 80% of the digging behind says we are on top 36"+ of soft moon rock soil supposedly.....

 

[mm08822]

There is a list of acceptable mfrs and cat#'s from the requirements...Lists of acceptable meter socketsare available online at https://www.pacificpower.net/workingwith-us/builders-contractors/electric-service-requirements.html and https://www.rockymountainpower.net/...contractors/electric-servicerequirements.html.

 

[tarbellb]

There is a list of acceptable mfrs and cat#'s from the requirements...Lists of acceptable meter socketsare available online at https://www.pacificpower.net/workingwith-us/builders-contractors/electric-service-requirements.html and https://www.rockymountainpower.net/...contractors/electric-servicerequirements.html.

Thanks for linking that @mm08822

My Ai told me that it didn't exist
Also got some more clarity on the trench details

 

[beltfeed]

I installed a 320A meter socket on a free-standing meter mount which can support 400A max load 10' away from the pad transformer, located halfway between my home and shop. Each structure has a 200-amp load center. I'm not sure how the costs go with your POCO but for me they will supply the direct burial wire from the pole and the pad transformer. My POCO spec'd 42" trench depth from the pole to the transformer, back filled with 6" of sand POCO lays the wire in and then I back filled 6" of sand on top of the wire. If you place a pad transformer between your two structures your post transform runs to load centers will be much short and more efficient. If you POCO will cover the wire costs to the trans, that saves you money.

Here is my layout.

 

[tarbellb]

Good idea to split the difference on your property there. Some long runs you had to make.

Couple reasons I'm going w the plan above. Poco requires 150ft or less per run/pull and my shop corner is about 140' so no need for a new pedestal or new pad. Second is my property is pretty small compared to yours, and in a denser neighborhood. I'm trying to keep it as visually low key as possible.

Thanks for the idea tho. Looks like a nice chunk of land.

 

[beltfeed]

Sounds like you have a plan. Hope it all goes well.

 

[tarbellb]

The next big question is

Do I pay $1200 for the main 30" x 150ft trench to be trenched by a pro

Or

$500 mini excavator rental with 60-70" wide track w 12" bucket and dig myself?

probably be able to dig the 24" trench in the same day too?

But all the liability is on me now?

 

[Chuckster in NJ]

The next big question is

Do I pay $1200 for the main 30" x 150ft trench to be trenched by a pro

Or

$500 mini excavator rental with 60-70" wide track w 12" bucket and dig myself?

probably be able to dig the 24" trench in the same day too?

But all the liability is on me now?

Unless you are very familiar with operating an excavator I highly suggest paying a pro to dig the trench with his equipment.…….. Saving $700 may end up costing a lot more if you break something on a rental machine OR don’t return it on time.

 

[Bert_]

30" deep? Rent a walk behind trencher

 

[tarbellb]

Unless you are very familiar with operating an excavator I highly suggest paying a pro to dig the trench with his equipment.…….. Saving $700 may end up costing a lot more if you break something on a rental machine OR don’t return it on time.

Yeah I was thinking the same. I have some experience but with digging you are at the mercy of whats under the surface.

All the utilities are marked, and Im going into never been developed land which hopefully mean not hitting unknowns. Honestly Im kinda excited to run the mini

30" deep? Rent a walk behind trencher

I considered the trencher, but the cost difference really isnt much (20%). Plus I need a decent width to lay 3" conduit and not have the Poco barking at me for a sloppy trench.

 

[Bert_]

Yeah I was thinking the same. I have some experience but with digging you are at the mercy of whats under the surface.

All the utilities are marked, and Im going into never been developed land which hopefully mean not hitting unknowns. Honestly Im kinda excited to run the mini



I considered the trencher, but the cost difference really isnt much (20%). Plus I need a decent width to lay 3" conduit and not have the Poco barking at me for a sloppy trench.

Check around on your prices. I can rent a walk behind that can do a 36" deep 6" wide trench for $240 a day. And that's from the big rental place, probably a better deal out there.

Trencher will be much faster and easier to learn.

 

[Chuckster in NJ]

30" deep? Rent a walk behind trencher

This ^ is what I would do (and have done)…… I owned a Ditch Witch 1420 and that machine would dig 7’ per minute. Almost every rental yard has a walk behind trencher available for rent.

 

[tarbellb]

@Bert_ good points about the trencher. How wide of a trench does the 36" do? PoCo is real particular about the trench, spoils, etc....

FYI I was also surprised how cheap I can grab a 12" bucket mini excavator for. $400 dropped off and picked up 8hr day.

 

[Bert_]

50hp ditch witch but I've done 800', 36" depth in something like 3 hours. You can't touch that with a mini ex.

 

[Chuckster in NJ]

Ditch Witch walk behind Info and specs.

https://www.ditchwitch.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/08/CX-Series-Literature.pdf#page=4

 

[mm08822]

@Bert_ good points about the trencher. How wide of a trench does the 36" do? PoCo is real particular about the trench, spoils, etc....

FYI I was also surprised how cheap I can grab a 12" bucket mini excavator for. $400 dropped off and picked up 8hr day.

4" is a common trench width but 6" is available but you may have to look around for that. Trenching with a ditchwitch (or equal) is usually a very continuous process from start to finish. Big rocks can cause for a little challenge but usually are easily overcome. Getting the conduit in the ground quickly is your best bet against cave-ins and the soil swelling. (4" drain pipe in a 4" trench aint fun.) 3" in a 4" should be easy.

One thing I always hated about trenching is the backfilling.......as it was always by hand. That gets even worse when the spoils are rained on.

A 6" trench is 50% more spoils to move back in than a 4" trench. A 12" width is 2-3x more to move back in. Do you have something with a blade to help with this (days after trench is dug).

If the soil is very rocky, you may want to consider sand/stone dust or rock free soil under/over conduit for added protection.

 

[Chuckster in NJ]

4" is a common trench width but 6" is available but you may have to look around for that. Trenching with a ditchwitch (or equal) is usually a very continuous process from start to finish. Big rocks can cause for a little challenge but usually are easily overcome. Getting the conduit in the ground quickly is your best bet against cave-ins and the soil swelling. (4" drain pipe in a 4" trench aint fun.) 3" in a 4" should be easy.

One thing I always hated about trenching is the backfilling.......as it was always by hand. That gets even worse when the spoils are rained on.

A 6" trench is 50% more spoils to move back in than a 4" trench. A 12" width is 2-3x more to more back in. Do you have something with a bled to help with this (days after trench is dug).

If the soil is very rocky, you may want to consider sand/stone dust or rock free soil under/over conduit for added protection.

Much easier to back fill the “wash" from a trencher than a 12” bucket……… The "wash" is usually ground up and "fluffy" compared to a bucket of soil.
I have dug trench all over in NJ and it varies from clay, shale, sandy and rocky soils.……… I was never defeated with my Ditch Witch walk behind unless I hit a major rock ledge or tree stump that I had to go around.

 

[mike93lx]

If you get a trencher, get the biggest, track driven one that you can. Don't try to match the unit to the trench you need... Go bigger.

And if you can rent one with a blade for backfilling, do that

 

[mm08822]

If you get a trencher, get the biggest, track driven one that you can. Don't try to match the unit to the trench you need... Go bigger.

And if you can rent one with a blade for backfilling, do that

Trench inspections can delay backfilling.

 

[tarbellb]

Really good info about the Pros to trenching , appreciate the insights all

I'm going to investigate some HD trencher options, me running a mine excavator dreams are fading....

 

[dave*99]

Really good info about the Pros to trenching , appreciate the insights all

I'm going to investigate some HD trencher options, me running a mine excavator dreams are fading....

Yeah, I avoid that too. Good chance I'd get blown up.

 

[mike93lx]

Trench inspections can delay backfilling.

Absolutely. It's worth asking if it would be acceptable to place a couple vertical sections of pipe so that depth can be verified. But if you can get the AHJ to get out maybe next day, keeping the trencher to backfill is worth it

 

[Chuckster in NJ]

CALL and talk to the inspector and ask if "sight tubes" are OK to use……… Sometimes they come out right away on trenches.

 

[Bert_]

I feel for you guys that have to leave a trench open. I've had a utility company one single time that wanted to inspect the conduit and trench for their transformer.

Normally I dig the hole, run the wire, backfill, and I'm gone.

 

[JohnX14]

The trencher wouldn't work so well here in the NE with all the rock. Mini excavator would be the choice.

 

[Codyboy]

I feel for you guys that have to leave a trench open. I've had a utility company one single time that wanted to inspect the conduit and trench for their transformer.

Normally I dig the hole, run the wire, backfill, and I'm gone.

Same. Never heard of trench inspections by the POCO.
We were never that strict.

 

[tarbellb]

Looked up the trencher, that might be the ticket.
Pros- very small footprint, set and forget depth, and hopefully the speed

Cons- spoils almost flush with the trench, PoCo wants 3ft? And back filling will be more labor intensive unless its got the optional blade

 

[mike93lx]

Looked up the trencher, that might be the ticket.
Pros- very small footprint, set and forget depth, and hopefully the speed

Cons- spoils almost flush with the trench, PoCo wants 3ft? And back filling will be more labor intensive unless its got the optional blade

Set and forget

Good to be confident going in, at least

 

[sparky 1971]

I have never, ever, not once had a trench inspected; even on the occasional job with a permit. And I almost always pay someone to do the digging; I know they are out there but I've yet to see a rental trencher with a backfill blade and filling a trench with a rake and shovel isn't the way I want to spend any amount of time.

Tomorrow I am installing the underground for a garage but I'm not digging. The owner is a repeat customer and I told him several months ago that I would hire someone, he could hire someone, or he could dig the 150 trench himself. He took option #3 and I am sure that by the time the trench is filled in he will understand why I said no.

 

[Codyboy]

Looked up the trencher, that might be the ticket.
Pros- very small footprint, set and forget depth, and hopefully the speed

Cons- spoils almost flush with the trench, PoCo wants 3ft? And back filling will be more labor intensive unless its got the optional blade

PoCo wants what 3ft? Depth? You stated earlier it was 30".
Spoils 3ft away? Doesn't OSHA only require a minimum of 2ft?
Why do they care?
Are you digging trench and installing the conduit? PoCo is pulling wire?

None of this overthinking makes sense to me.

Dig trench to required depth and install conduit.
PoCo says looks good. Backfill. Done.
PoCo pulls wire. Sets meter . Done.

 

[mm08822]

Aren't the concern over spoils from an excavation for excavations deeper than 5'(?) and wide enough for (living) bodies going into the trench.

Not seeing how that's a concern for 4-6" wide trench.

 

[tarbellb]

I re-read the PDF, its 2ft from edge of trench, still 30" deep

@Codyboy Really just looking to ease the install process since im cutting through 2 neighbors properties, minimal disturbance and downtime.
If I was in BFE and its only my land and my downtime wouldnt be as worried....

PoCo has final say in all this, if they dont like something, they can go Full Stop- just following the (51 page!) install manual

 

[Codyboy]

I re-read the PDF, its 2ft from edge of trench, still 30" deep

@Codyboy Really just looking to ease the install process since im cutting through 2 neighbors properties, minimal disturbance and downtime.
If I was in BFE and its only my land and my downtime wouldnt be as worried....

PoCo has final say in all this, if they dont like something, they can go Full Stop- just following the (51 page!) install manual

Crossing 2 neighboring properties to get to the transformer?
Hmmm. I see in another post you said 80% will be in a neighboring yard.
I don't know how it works where you are but here that would be trespassing. I'm not talking about you as a person trespassing, but your service line trespassing.
I can't remember the actual footage allowed but if it was more than about 8 to 10ft into another property and out of the easement was not allowed.
I'd probably get some clarification on that by talking with PoCo and not relying on a pdf.

 

[tarbellb]

10ft PoCo easement so no trespassing, just being neighborly

 

[dave*99]

10ft PoCo easement so no trespassing, just being neighborly

I'm surprised there is a DIY option to trench in the neighbors yard within the easement. Even if allowed, I'd want someone else and their insurance to be the responsible party for that work.

When the PoCo replaced my underground service, I came home to find their contractor repairing two of my septic system laterals they cut through once the got on my property and took a short cut across the lawn. The transformer was 2 doors away and they had to install the cable in the easement along the sidewalk and cross under two driveways.

 

[mike93lx]

I can't imagine trenching down a poco easement. Way too much risk of hitting something