Things worth knowing about each power tool brand and their ecosystems

[YesIHaveAHammer]

I'm interested in hearing what you'd tell someone new about different power tool brands in general high level terms. Especially worthwhile stuff for someone entering their cordless battery ecosystem. What would you say about them?

Voltage platforms. Milwaukee's 12V range is much wider and refined than other brands. Makita has many tools available on both 18V and 40V, but sometimes features you might want on a tool are only available on the 40V model.

Super-specific tools with narrow appeal. Milwaukee seems to have a lot of tools that are designed for some very specific tasks done by a single profession.

Range of available tools. Most big brands have most things most people want, but smaller ones may not. Impressive numbers in the hundreds may be quoted, but these may include multiple types of similar tools (e.g. drills). Ryobi probably has an especially wide range of non-professional things.

Common battery platforms. Bosch has AMPShare and Metabo Germany has CAS, each of which has dozens of smaller brands whose tools use those batteries. However, those brands are pretty much all very specialist, so the shared platform is probably of no advantage to most people.

Pace of innovation and model refreshes. Worth calling out Makita here, as an outlier - and not as a criticism. They generally don't see a need to refresh things as often as other brands. They have been first to market with some innovative tools by half a decade, and then not updated that tool for over a decade. Bosch has been a bit stagnant and had gaps in their lineup until recently, but a lot of stuff being refreshed and added at the moment.

Availability, pricing, and discounting in your country. Some try harder than other to have you buy their stuff. Others might only have a partial range (especially if you're not in a huge country like the US), or rarely do any discounting. Some try to position/price as more premium in your country than they are in their home country.

Corporate upheavals. All the big names are owned by some larger entity above them, except for Bosch (by a charity) and Makita (independent publicly traded). Brands and divisions get sold around, private equity do their thing etc. Real Metabo (Germany) was withdrawn from the US but continues in all other countries (for now, at least). Main consideration with mergers/shutdowns etc. is what happens to battery platforms in future.

Number of tool variants. Some brands offer a huge number of feature and spec variants. For example, Bosch in my country offers 22 models of 125mm cordless angle grinders with many combinations of power, switch type, and other features - while Milwaukee has 4.

Strength/weakness in particular areas of the range. Some brands have produced a wide range of top tier tools in particular areas (e.g. woodwork, metalworking) for many years, while others are not such long standing experts who have worked more recently to fill out their range. For example, a company's cordless lawnmower offering might be the very first mower they ever made. At the other extreme, you get specialist brands which only do certain areas, like Stihl and outdoor power equipment. OPE can be an area worth considering being in a different brand battery ecosystem for.

Tiering. Brands have different lines for different people, such as DIY, pro, industry. Milwaukee's good stuff is Fuel. Bosch's good stuff is Pro (blue, not green), although they recently rejigged their range by introducing the Expert range. Some tools were moved up into that premium/upmarket range with none or minor revisions not felt to justify the price increases.

Hand tools and consumables. Separate matter entirely, they'll stick their name on anything.

 

[liliysdad]

Why do you do this?

 

[Cruzan80]

This reads like someone took AI and then asked it to re-write itself a few times, adding in their points.

Is there an actual question in that giant wall of text?

 

[YesIHaveAHammer]

Why do you do this?

I was thinking about it, decided to write it down. Some people here find these things interesting to discuss, and I appreciate the many insightful things people will reply with.

This reads like someone took AI and then asked it to re-write itself a few times, adding in their points.

No AI involved.

Is there an actual question in that giant wall of text?

It's at the start - I was wondering what others might add:

What would you say about them?

 

[Cruzan80]

I guess I don't see what is going to be different this time than the other hundreds of time this has come up. Milwaukee and Dewalt are the biggest players. Ridgid has their lifetime battery service. Makita and Bosch do some interesting stuff on the sidelines. Ryobi, Bauer, Hyper Tough are all the cheaper, disposable level stuff. CM/PC/B&D are floating somewhere around the mid-level HF and Ridgid, to a degree. Most of them have gone to bigger battery packs.

Everyone will have their preference. Some want one battery system only. Others want something they feel won't be discontinued. Others want to mix/match the best of each brand. It will probably devolve into a shouting match of egos like most.

I guess the better way for me to have phrased it is "What further discussion do you think will come out of this thread, that hasn't already been covered ad nauseam with others?" I didn't see a single coordinating strand through the topics (though certainly may have missed it). This more feels like "Power Tools, Good/Bad/Other, please discuss".

Not meaning any of this in a mean way, just not sure how to answer it except based on my own experiences, that I have posted about in multiple other threads like this. Most of these threads seem to be from people new to tools and GJ, which I don't immediately associate you with (meaning in a positive way).

The AI comment was mostly due to the big bold headings and the way it was sorted. Not that it was Cut/Paste, but more in a "Organize my random thoughts for me, and elaborate" kind of way. Didn't mean it specifically negatively.

 

[manwithtools]

Try reading some of the dozens of prior posts like this.

 

[AEAdam]

I’ll bite:

Bosch invented some tool forms (jig saw?) and generally made high quality, made in Germany tools for many many years. Today, Bosch is an enormous company that maybe hasn’t kept pace with its hand tool competitors. Not all Bosch tools are made in Germany, but their saws remain top notch. I like Bosch tools, and side by side I often prefer them. I think they are well designed.

In terms of woodworking ecosystems, Festool has taken over for top German made stuff. I have zero Festool products and sometimes I regret not biting the bullet. They have stuff that no one else has, like the Domino. They really market their “system” of tools. I think the system works and makes sense, but maybe holds less value for Americans. The Festool line revolves around the work of “house joiners”, what we’d call cabinetmakers, who lack the space for stationary machines or who build on site. While Festool’s system works for Americans, I think it doesn’t provide the same value it offers folks with smaller shop facilities.

Makita has an enormous line of cordless tools and despite its home center mass distribution, remains top notch. While Makita can get edged out by other brands in comparison testing, I wouldn’t let that put you off. Especially notable are the Tenryu blades Makita uses. I would put them above Diablo, and up there with Freud or CMT. Bosch owns Freud, which owns Diablo. Diablo at least are typically made in Italy (=good) like Orange CMT. My Milwaukee track saw can’t practically use any of these better blades, which is my beef with Milwaukee. Otherwise, I find Makita tools well made, & comfortable to use.

Snap on power tools get excoriated by pros due to their high price, but they often have features (reversing paddle trigger) other manufacturers don’t have. If you can find gently used second hand Snap on power tools, they can be good buys. I have some and recommend them, especially their venerable 14.4V line.

Milwaukee, in my opinion, dominate the cordless tool market. They just have tons of tools, and many or most have market leading specs. M12 is particularly attractive to me. They are generally cheap, light, and seem to have as much power as 18v had 5 yrs ago. There are few things I can’t do with M12. Circ saws, sawzalls and angle grinders I’d keep buying 18v. But drills and drivers, cordless hack saws, plumbing tools, impact guns, all work great in M12.

What I don’t like about Milwaukee is that I feel they are designing tools solely to beat their competitors’ specs. At this point, I think choosing a cordless platform based on one or 2 or all their tools’ spec sheets is a mistake. All the tools I’ve used have more than enough power, drive wood screws just fine etc etc. What Milwaukee offers that its competitors don't is its enormous ecosystem. More about that later.

The myriad of other brands strike me as unattractive. Some offer legit prograde tools like DeWalt. But brands like Ryobi simply aren’t big enough or unique enough to tempt me. I think their chief selling point is their low price, which is sometimes dramatic and sometimes not.

On the value of cordless ecosystems, we need to be realistic about sharing batteries. If you are doing automotive work, does it matter if you share batteries with your carpentry saws? Many times, batteries I use are pretty tool specific, not due to the ecosystem, but just the size of the battery. My Milwaukee track saw really needs an 8amphr battery to perform acceptably. That battery is really too big for other tools I have, so it really didn’t matter if I bought Milwaukee or Makita. When I’m doing carpentry, I like being able to pull a battery off my impact driver and put it on my circ saw or sawzall to finish a cut. But if the impact driver is Milwaukee M12 and the saw is Milwaukee M18, did it really matter they were from the same manufacturer?

I can see sticking to 1 or 2 batteries within a certain sort of trade. But sharing woodworking tool batteries within lawn tools doesn’t really make sense to me.

 

[zendriver]

"if you're poor, buy Bauer, If you're rich, buy Hercules"

That's my advice.

I've never latched on the the obsession with minimizing "cordless battery platforms", unless I lived in a camper. Seriously, I have a half dozen+ "ecosystems", (Up to yard tools) plus some abandoned over the years due to obsolescence. I charge the batteries for the tools when I need them.

Is someone wanted to jump on the 1st class Milwaukee train from the get-go, have at it.

My 18v Ryobi sprayer works fine for 1/2 the price of Milwaukee

 

[YesIHaveAHammer]

I guess I don't see what is going to be different this time than the other hundreds of time this has come up.

I guess the better way for me to have phrased it is "What further discussion do you think will come out of this thread, that hasn't already been covered ad nauseam with others?"

Fair question. I was thinking a focus on broad high level observations and nuances, more than the usual "best" or "which for me" or "A vs. B" kinds of questions.

I didn't see a single coordinating strand through the topics (though certainly may have missed it).

There isn't meant to be. I'm not making any single big point or trying to work towards a conclusion.

answer it except based on my own experiences, that I have posted about in multiple other threads like this.

It's certainly true that some of these points in other threads like the ones I mentioned just above.

Most of these threads seem to be from people new to tools and GJ, which I don't immediately associate you with (meaning in a positive way).

The perspective I have is like most others here, we can take a wide reflecting view on the state of tools, from an relatively already well informed position. I've been on GJ about a year, been in workshops since I could walk.

The AI comment was mostly due to the big bold headings and the way it was sorted. Not that it was Cut/Paste, but more in a "Organize my random thoughts for me, and elaborate" kind of way. Didn't mean it specifically negatively.

No worries. Yeah I just added the bolding to try and split up the parts better.

 

[Dumber than lumber]

"if you're poor, buy Bauer, If you're rich, buy Hercules"

That's my advice.

I've never latched on the the obsession with minimizing "cordless battery platforms", unless I lived in a camper. Seriously, I have a half dozen+ "ecosystems", (Up to yard tools) plus some abandoned over the years due to obsolescence. I charge the batteries for the tools when I need them.

Is someone wanted to jump on the 1st class Milwaukee train from the get-go, have at it.

My 18v Ryobi sprayer works fine for 1/2 the price of Milwaukee

Some tools are absolutely unique in their capabilities. Until patent runs out in some cases.
Do you own any Festool or Mafell, for example?

 

[YesIHaveAHammer]

Try reading some of the dozens of prior posts like this.

Yes, if anyone is interested in discussions some of us found interesting, they could check out my previous threads and posts.

Or if they're not interested, they can just ignore them.

 

[LXCam]

I can’t answer any of that…

But I’m sure someone makes a socket for it.

 

[zendriver]

Some tools are absolutely unique in their capabilities. Until patent runs out in some cases.
Do you own any Festool or Mafell, for example?

No, never even seen them in real life. used to attend countless estate auctions, almost never seen high end brand tools, even with some that seemed to be committed woodworkers.

I have 19.2v Cman. First were early Nicad. Ex wife gave me some newer Lion sets, gave the old one away nearly new. used these for over a decade + the worked fine. Then the 1/2" impact quit (bad brush maybe) purchased a Hercules replacement and battery. Now I'm adding to that platform, only using the remaining Cman tools when needed.

I guess I have no problem with battery chargers.

 

[MovingAlong]

I'm interested in hearing what you'd tell someone new about different power tool brands in general high level terms.

My tools do the jobs I need done, the way I like to do them. They may or may not be appropriate for you.

What I'd tell someone:

1) Identify your tasks.
2) Identify the various tools that do those tasks.
3) Identify who sells/supports one of those tool brands near you.
4) Start spending your money...

No need to compare my choices to others, nor to base your choices off mine either...

 

[YesIHaveAHammer]

No need to compare my choices to others, nor to base your choices off mine either...

Ok, so I could have put it better than "tell someone new". I see your point, essentially everyone's circumstance is different, and it's not necessary to discuss this in depth like people on a tool forum could.

Also to be clear I'm not asking for advice here. Just sharing thoughts to prompt discussion.

 

[Vinny]

I buy Bosch as it's the least Chinese of the usual consumer brands and I find it to be higher quality than the other colors I've tried. Most of their tools are of European origins. Interestingly, they offer ALOT more cordless tools than what are sold at the usual outfits. You have to go through their website or the company direct for some. Like we use their cordless blind rivet guns at work.

 

[neophyte]

I was thinking about it, decided to write it down. Some people here find these things interesting to discuss, and I appreciate the many insightful things people will reply with.


No AI involved.


It's at the start - I was wondering what others might add:

There are already numerous threads, on various power tool manufacturers, as well as on power tool manufacturers in general.
Individual users will have different opinions, on different brands, and those opinions might be affected by the particular tasks the tools are being used for, or the industry where the tolls are being used.

I still swear by corded Tools, but plenty of other members on GJ think corded tools are generally “Obsolete” for most tasks.
For certain tasks this is generally true, but certainly not for all tasks, and it can also depend on how much work you beed to do with the individual tool.

As far as power tool manufacturers being mostly owned by other “major corporations”, this is true to some extent, but there are still niche US power tool manufacturers making their own tools, and plenty of niche German power tool manufacturers doing the same, along with some niche Japanese manufacturers, and manufacturers from other countries as well.

Plenty of people get hing up on cordless tool “battery ecosystems” because they don’t want to have to buy individual batteries, and chargers, etc., for a number of different systems.
Generally though, most individual power tool manufacturers don’t make all types of tool well, or even every type of tool, so if you have some particular usage case where you need an optimal tool for a particular usage which you do heavily or regularly, you either have to invest in that system, or add extra systems.
Even buying into one brand’s cordless system doesn't ensure battery compatibility, since different voltages still exist within the same brands.

The CAS and Ampshare systems are helpful in this regard, since many top quality niche tools nay be made in one system, or both, while allowing users to buy standard tools like Cordless drills from a major power tool manufacturer, which likely has optimized the tools to some degree for performance and price.

Regarding individual tool brand reputation, this is problematic since quality has risen and fallen over decades amongst tool brands, and even over just the past decade or two, and quality can vary depending on whether the tools are corded, or cordless.

 

[neophyte]

I’ll bite:

Bosch invented some tool forms (jig saw?) and generally made high quality, made in Germany tools for many many years. Today, Bosch is an enormous company that maybe hasn’t kept pace with its hand tool competitors. Not all Bosch tools are made in Germany, but their saws remain top notch. I like Bosch tools, and side by side I often prefer them. I think they are well designed.

In terms of woodworking ecosystems, Festool has taken over for top German made stuff. I have zero Festool products and sometimes I regret not biting the bullet. They have stuff that no one else has, like the Domino. They really market their “system” of tools. I think the system works and makes sense, but maybe holds less value for Americans. The Festool line revolves around the work of “house joiners”, what we’d call cabinetmakers, who lack the space for stationary machines or who build on site. While Festool’s system works for Americans, I think it doesn’t provide the same value it offers folks with smaller shop facilities.

Makita has an enormous line of cordless tools and despite its home center mass distribution, remains top notch. While Makita can get edged out by other brands in comparison testing, I wouldn’t let that put you off. Especially notable are the Tenryu blades Makita uses. I would put them above Diablo, and up there with Freud or CMT. Bosch owns Freud, which owns Diablo. Diablo at least are typically made in Italy (=good) like Orange CMT. My Milwaukee track saw can’t practically use any of these better blades, which is my beef with Milwaukee. Otherwise, I find Makita tools well made, & comfortable to use.

Snap on power tools get excoriated by pros due to their high price, but they often have features (reversing paddle trigger) other manufacturers don’t have. If you can find gently used second hand Snap on power tools, they can be good buys. I have some and recommend them, especially their venerable 14.4V line.

Milwaukee, in my opinion, dominate the cordless tool market. They just have tons of tools, and many or most have market leading specs. M12 is particularly attractive to me. They are generally cheap, light, and seem to have as much power as 18v had 5 yrs ago. There are few things I can’t do with M12. Circ saws, sawzalls and angle grinders I’d keep buying 18v. But drills and drivers, cordless hack saws, plumbing tools, impact guns, all work great in M12.

What I don’t like about Milwaukee is that I feel they are designing tools solely to beat their competitors’ specs. At this point, I think choosing a cordless platform based on one or 2 or all their tools’ spec sheets is a mistake. All the tools I’ve used have more than enough power, drive wood screws just fine etc etc. What Milwaukee offers that its competitors don't is its enormous ecosystem. More about that later.

The myriad of other brands strike me as unattractive. Some offer legit prograde tools like DeWalt. But brands like Ryobi simply aren’t big enough or unique enough to tempt me. I think their chief selling point is their low price, which is sometimes dramatic and sometimes not.

On the value of cordless ecosystems, we need to be realistic about sharing batteries. If you are doing automotive work, does it matter if you share batteries with your carpentry saws? Many times, batteries I use are pretty tool specific, not due to the ecosystem, but just the size of the battery. My Milwaukee track saw really needs an 8amphr battery to perform acceptably. That battery is really too big for other tools I have, so it really didn’t matter if I bought Milwaukee or Makita. When I’m doing carpentry, I like being able to pull a battery off my impact driver and put it on my circ saw or sawzall to finish a cut. But if the impact driver is Milwaukee M12 and the saw is Milwaukee M18, did it really matter they were from the same manufacturer?

I can see sticking to 1 or 2 batteries within a certain sort of trade. But sharing woodworking tool batteries within lawn tools doesn’t really make sense to me.

“In terms of woodworking ecosystems, Festool has taken over for top German made stuff. I have zero Festool products and sometimes I regret not biting the bullet. They have stuff that no one else has, like the Domino. They really market their “system” of tools. I think the system works and makes sense, but maybe holds less value for Americans. The Festool line revolves around the work of “house joiners”, what we’d call cabinetmakers, who lack the space for stationary machines or who build on site. While Festool’s system works for Americans, I think it doesn’t provide the same value it offers folks with smaller shop facilities.”

Festool built their reputation in the USA over having a “modular” system, as well as having “unique” types of tools others didn’t offer.
While to some extent this was true, there are many ways it wasn’t.
The Festool battery system still basically isn’t a single unified system, although it is way better than it used to be, and the more unified system was only introduced with the current line of 18v lithium batteries.
Before those 18v lithium batteries, kept changing their battery systems, with proprietary batteries, sometimes for individual tools.
This was way less modular than other power tool manufacturers of the same time period.
The Festool MFT multi function table system was completely overhauled at one point, changing the height and dimensions, and rail profile, making the newer tables incomparable with the older system.
Festool continued selling the older tables as a “modular system” in the USA, even after the new system had been out in Europe for a year or two or longer, and they where selling the system at full price during much of this time.
Festool also has released multiple new saw models using different blade sizes, which can be problematic in the USA, since metric blades are not standard, and only the two major Festool saws have blades that have become somewhat ubiquitous.
Festool also seems to have a habit of releasing tools, then discontinuing the tools within a few years.
In the USA, Festool is the source for repair parts for Festool Tools, and Festool has stopped support for some parts for some older tool models.
Also, they sometimes really screw up on their engineering.
Other than the Kapex miter saw, whose motors kept prematurely dying leaving customers footing the bill for new motors once the saws were out of warrantee, (an issue that has supposedly now been fixed), there was the generation 1 of the Carvex that had to be recalled because the blade guide clamp system could cause blades to become red hot.
Also, I believe there was an issue with blades not licking straight, because Festool tried using some twisting blade clamp design.
This was despite the fact that Milwaukee had already needed to redesign the blade clamp on a Milwaukee saw, that was originally designed and made in Germany, that also used a twisting blade clamp.

Not all Festool tools are bad.
Plenty of woodworkers swear by the Domino, whoever, the tool is even expensive even compared to many niche woodworking tools.
The Festool track saws have a deserved reputation, but the main advantage there is the track system and accessories, and the fact that the track system is one of the two major track systems, used by other tool brands, and the predominant track system of those major two systems, with the widest variety of accessories, that even people who don’t own a Festool track saw can take advantage of.
(I actually think the Mafell saws look better, buy the Mafell saws cost more).
The Festool Rotex sanders are also well regarded.

 

[mikey03]

milwaukee got three styles of power tools
brushed = ****
brushless = okay
fuel = best = brushless + more power

m12 batteries don’t buy a 3v Or 6v they are no good. Also don’t buy 1.5 or 2 but if they come free it’s okay

you want the 4 and 5s if you’re buying one. It’s different cells.

 

[tyyost]

I’ve been frustrated by Milwaukee’s triggers and internals dying on tools I use infrequently. I have had a fuel drilll, impact driver and 6 1/2 saw all **** out and parts cannoning triggers at them did not repair them. The drill was an acceptable loss as it was on of my original tools and had a bunch out use, but the others should have been better. My few 12v tools have been good but batteries have been questionable and they aren’t getting any cheaper.

After the saw died I bought a Makita combo 18v 2 battery saw, and it’s great. Added a jigsaw and looked at some other stuff like OPE but can’t help but notice that the 40v line seems to get all the love. Hard to spend money on the stuff that may not be around.

I‘m now seriously looking at Hercules for a 5ah started kit on sale and can see me adding a few tools, impact driver, 3/8 impact, and maybe the router.

 

[KnurledNut]

I'm interested in hearing what you'd tell someone new about different power tool brands in general high level terms. Especially worthwhile stuff for someone entering their cordless battery ecosystem. What would you say about them?

I like to speak in analogies. They are typically understood and get the point across without going into long-winded analysis paralysis.

So without further ado:
Ford = Milwaukee
Chevy = Dewalt
Stellantis Group = Ridgid, Kobalt, Craftsman
Toyota = Makita
Nissan = Ryobi
Honda = Hitachi
Tesla = Snap-on
Hyundai = Hercules
Kia = Bauer
Volvo = Hilti
Subaru = Skilsaw, Paslode
Volkswagen = Bosch
Audi = Flex
BMW = Metabo
Mercedes = Fein
Porsche = Festool

 

[JohnX14]

^^ I'd pretty much agree^^

 

[JohnX14]

I have 3 vans and a shop. All are split with some Milwaukee, some DeWalt, and Makita drills/ drivers. It's based on the individual tool. We have cordless SDS Max, cordless sds, sawzalls, circular saws, ocillating saws, angle drills, hammer drills, impact driverss, table saws, miter saws,

We prefer DeWalt hammer drill, sds hammer drill, oscillating saw, and circular saws. The others are a toss-up, we like them both. Personally, I far prefer the Makita impact driver to either of the other two. By a lot. To the point that I have brand new MW impact drivers hanging on the rack and will buy a new Makita when needed. And it's the tool I use most as an electrician between installing devices, hanging lights, panelboards, screwing in boxes, etc.