Auto mechs, how often do you use deep sockets? Would you miss them?

[Kurt4440]

A little bit more info that I hope will help:

When you apply torque to a bolt head with a 0 degree wrench, the load you apply largely becomes the tightening or loosening torque the fastener sees. This is one reason why GOOD wrenches are awesome. They are among the most efficient tools we have. Also why I like LONG wrenches, and maybe why ratcheting wrenches are popular.

When you use a socket, the force you apply to the ratchet or breaker handle, produces 2 different torques, 90 degrees apart:

One is the loosening or tightening torque. The other is a torque or moment trying to roll the socket off the fastener head. When the socket fits REALLY well, sometimes it alone can react that second torque. This is yet another reason why mechanics prefer tight fitting sockets (and may not even realize this is why). It’s also a reason why it’s easier to round off a hex bolt.

The further away the ratchet head gets from the bolt head (whether you use a deep socket or an extension) the bigger this other torque gets. Depending on the applied load, many of us seek to react this rolling moment with our other hand. Many guys may prefer this, another secret reason why they prefer deep sockets.

But make no mistake about it. You are loosing energy using deep sockets. You are applying higher load to produce the torque required to remove a bolt. The shorter the socket, the more like a wrench it is, the more efficient it is.

PLEASE READ: I’m not trying to talk anyone out of using their deep sockets. It’s not dumb or wrong to use them all the time. This is just a physics thing that maybe not everyone on GJ thinks about. Sometime I use long rackets not for torque but for reach. I’m always gonna use a shallow socket. This also explains why snap on makes a ratchet with a bent handle. My guess is many tool manufacturers don't really know why snap on did that. Many pros will say that is their favorite ratchet.

I agree wholeheartedly.

I use the shallowest and tightest fitting tool available when I need to break a large, tight, or corroded fastener free while using hand tools.

Impact gun use is obviously a different story.

I use deep 1/4" sockets primarily for hand clearance.

My Snap-on bent handle ratchet is old and needs to be updated.

 

[micromind]

A little bit more info that I hope will help:

When you apply torque to a bolt head with a 0 degree wrench, the load you apply largely becomes the tightening or loosening torque the fastener sees. This is one reason why GOOD wrenches are awesome. They are among the most efficient tools we have. Also why I like LONG wrenches, and maybe why ratcheting wrenches are popular.

When you use a socket, the force you apply to the ratchet or breaker handle, produces 2 different torques, 90 degrees apart:

One is the loosening or tightening torque. The other is a torque or moment trying to roll the socket off the fastener head. When the socket fits REALLY well, sometimes it alone can react that second torque. This is yet another reason why mechanics prefer tight fitting sockets (and may not even realize this is why). It’s also a reason why it’s easier to round off a hex bolt.

The further away the ratchet head gets from the bolt head (whether you use a deep socket or an extension) the bigger this other torque gets. Depending on the applied load, many of us seek to react this rolling moment with our other hand. Many guys may prefer this, another secret reason why they prefer deep sockets.

But make no mistake about it. You are loosing energy using deep sockets. You are applying higher load to produce the torque required to remove a bolt. The shorter the socket, the more like a wrench it is, the more efficient it is.

PLEASE READ: I’m not trying to talk anyone out of using their deep sockets. It’s not dumb or wrong to use them all the time. This is just a physics thing that maybe not everyone on GJ thinks about. Sometime I use long rackets not for torque but for reach. I’m always gonna use a shallow socket. This also explains why snap on makes a ratchet with a bent handle. My guess is many tool manufacturers don't really know why snap on did that. Many pros will say that is their favorite ratchet.

Very well stated.

This is why I use the shallowest sockets that'll fit. I've seen too many corners rounded off by using deep sockets and no counterforce on the ratchet.

 

[Ohio Andy]

A little bit more info that I hope will help:

When you apply torque to a bolt head with a 0 degree wrench, the load you apply largely becomes the tightening or loosening torque the fastener sees. This is one reason why GOOD wrenches are awesome. They are among the most efficient tools we have. Also why I like LONG wrenches, and maybe why ratcheting wrenches are popular.

When you use a socket, the force you apply to the ratchet or breaker handle, produces 2 different torques, 90 degrees apart:

One is the loosening or tightening torque. The other is a torque or moment trying to roll the socket off the fastener head. When the socket fits REALLY well, sometimes it alone can react that second torque. This is yet another reason why mechanics prefer tight fitting sockets (and may not even realize this is why). It’s also a reason why it’s easier to round off a hex bolt.

The further away the ratchet head gets from the bolt head (whether you use a deep socket or an extension) the bigger this other torque gets. Depending on the applied load, many of us seek to react this rolling moment with our other hand. Many guys may prefer this, another secret reason why they prefer deep sockets.

But make no mistake about it. You are loosing energy using deep sockets. You are applying higher load to produce the torque required to remove a bolt. The shorter the socket, the more like a wrench it is, the more efficient it is.

PLEASE READ: I’m not trying to talk anyone out of using their deep sockets. It’s not dumb or wrong to use them all the time. This is just a physics thing that maybe not everyone on GJ thinks about. Sometime I use long rackets not for torque but for reach. I’m always gonna use a shallow socket. This also explains why snap on makes a ratchet with a bent handle. My guess is many tool manufacturers don't really know why snap on did that. Many pros will say that is their favorite ratchet.

Pardon my naive questions...

So I assume that during a standard loosening you're saying that that torque vector is pointing straight up... Can I assume then that while tightening that vector is pointing straight down?

Related, if it's a left-handed thread, does that mean the torque is directed in the opposite directions?

 

[micromind]

Pardon my naive questions...

So I assume that during a standard loosening you're saying that that torque vector is pointing straight up... Can I assume then that while tightening that vector is pointing straight down?

Related, if it's a left-handed thread, does that mean the torque is directed in the opposite directions?

Lol.

 

[dchawk81]

I don't own semi deeps but if it's a nut I'm grabbing the deep and if it's a bolt I'm grabbing the standard.

Generally speaking. I couldn't get along with just standards.

 

[MiteyF]

A little bit more info that I hope will help:

When you apply torque to a bolt head with a 0 degree wrench, the load you apply largely becomes the tightening or loosening torque the fastener sees. This is one reason why GOOD wrenches are awesome. They are among the most efficient tools we have. Also why I like LONG wrenches, and maybe why ratcheting wrenches are popular.

When you use a socket, the force you apply to the ratchet or breaker handle, produces 2 different torques, 90 degrees apart:

One is the loosening or tightening torque. The other is a torque or moment trying to roll the socket off the fastener head. When the socket fits REALLY well, sometimes it alone can react that second torque. This is yet another reason why mechanics prefer tight fitting sockets (and may not even realize this is why). It’s also a reason why it’s easier to round off a hex bolt.

The further away the ratchet head gets from the bolt head (whether you use a deep socket or an extension) the bigger this other torque gets. Depending on the applied load, many of us seek to react this rolling moment with our other hand. Many guys may prefer this, another secret reason why they prefer deep sockets.

But make no mistake about it. You are loosing energy using deep sockets. You are applying higher load to produce the torque required to remove a bolt. The shorter the socket, the more like a wrench it is, the more efficient it is.

PLEASE READ: I’m not trying to talk anyone out of using their deep sockets. It’s not dumb or wrong to use them all the time. This is just a physics thing that maybe not everyone on GJ thinks about. Sometime I use long rackets not for torque but for reach. I’m always gonna use a shallow socket. This also explains why snap on makes a ratchet with a bent handle. My guess is many tool manufacturers don't really know why snap on did that. Many pros will say that is their favorite ratchet.

Well, yeah, mostly... if you keep the socket/wrench perpendicular to the bolt, *in theory*, it should be the same as a wrench (although it never quite is). If it's a super stuck bolt, you grab a wrench. If it isn't a bear to get out right away, and it's not a tight space, a deep socket isn't any different than a standard.

 

[drokihazan]

It's getting to a point where I just use semi-deeps for everything if they fit.

 

[dchawk81]

It's getting to a point where I just use semi-deeps for everything if they fit.

If someone had zero sockets starting out and asked me what they should get, I'd probably recommend they buy semi deeps then go from there.

They either weren't a thing or I didn't know about them when I started.

 

[drokihazan]

If someone had zero sockets starting out and asked me what they should get, I'd probably recommend they buy semi deeps then go from there.

They either weren't a thing or I didn't know about them when I started.

kind of a new development, but yeah, they're close enough to one-size-fits-all that the next time I build a starter mechanics kit as a gift I'll probably only include semi-deeps

 

[Ohio Andy]

If someone had zero sockets starting out and asked me what they should get, I'd probably recommend they buy semi deeps then go from there.

They either weren't a thing or I didn't know about them when I started.

Tekton is starting now, but I had no idea until I got a set from snapon with shallow, semi deep, and deep.

Snap-on System Upgrade

Nice set. Stupid expensive. Not sure what I was thinking when I bought it

And now they (meaning multiple vendors, not just snap-on) have those low profile sockets.

No idea when this became a thing. It was not on my radar either, but it was the primary reason I bought the set.

 

[dchawk81]

Tekton is starting now, but I had no idea until I got a set from snapon with shallow, semi deep, and deep.

Snap-on System Upgrade

Nice set. Stupid expensive. Not sure what I was thinking when I bought it

And now they (meaning multiple vendors, not just snap-on) have those low profile sockets.

No idea when this became a thing. It was not on my radar either, but it was the primary reason I bought the set.

I bought into the Astro Nano sockets when they first came out. I really don't use them because I forget I have them and they only fit the head of a bolt.

I haven't encountered a situation where they're the only thing that'll work.

 

[LWB]

I don't really think about it. I have a short row of shallow Ko-ken nut grips I seem to go for. I also like wobbly sockets in impact. More often than not I have a pile of ratcheting wrenches out when done a job.

 

[LWB]

I'm slowly becoming of the opinion that very select few here actually use their tools with any regularity. It's more about collections.

So, what if people are collecting? I continuously "upgrade" my tools and could be called a collector. Doesn't mean they don't get used. I hear what you're saying but this is called "Garage journal" When I joined I assumed it was about people that like to work in their garages. Maybe I'm wrong? Not a collection of professional automotive mechanics only.

There are many hobbies that can be done in a garage and not limited to working on cars. Woodworking for example. I find sometimes people here have some kind of superior attitude because they turn wrenches for a living. I did turn wrenches for years. Not as mechanic but someone who built complex machinery and held together a contracting business. Now I turn wrenches for fun mostly and because I can, and do still enjoy it. I also do woodworking

I wish some of the full time mechanics would just knock it off and let those enjoy their hobbies whether it be collecting nice tools in THEIR garage.

 

[cherrybomb]

The deeps will always have a place in most tool kits,but the manufacturers are hoping you see the advantages of the mids,as it's always nice to have options .Tekton comes to mind as a viable option.

 

[dchawk81]

I'm slowly becoming of the opinion that very select few here actually use their tools with any regularity. It's more about collections.

I'm not a mechanic by trade. I just fix my own junk. I prefer to never have to use my tools, let alone with any regularity.

Unfortunately I was once a Boy Scout and their motto "be prepared" has stuck with me ever since.

 

[AEAdam]

Well, yeah, mostly... if you keep the socket/wrench perpendicular to the bolt, *in theory*, it should be the same as a wrench (although it never quite is). If it's a super stuck bolt, you grab a wrench. If it isn't a bear to get out right away, and it's not a tight space, a deep socket isn't any different than a standard.

If you apply 100lbs, 1ft away from the center of a bolt you generate 100ftlbs of torque. For a wrench that’s pretty much it.

If you apply your 100lbs 1’ away with a 3” offset (deep socket, extension, etc) that produces an additional moment of 100lbs x 3/12” = 25ftlbs that needs to be reacted. Someone used the term “counter hold”. That’s right. Most of us probably counter hold without thinking about it.

Let’s look at the 25ftlbs and why we attempt to counter hold that. That’s a moment trying to roll the socket off the bolt head. If the bolt head is 1/2” high, the force couple on that bolt head is 25ftlbs/(.5”/12”) =600 lbs That’s not a crazy high amount of force on a steel nut. But you can see how the 100lbs we apply gets magnified. This is how our tools work.

The worry is, if the contact patch on the bolt head is small because the socket doesn’t fit great or the fastener head is a little dodgey, the stress on the bolt head could be high enough to plastically deform (round) the bolt. That stress would be load/contact patch (area). When that area is small, the stress goes up pretty dramatically.

Again, using deep sockets as everyday sockets isn’t causing bolt head damage. But given the choice between using a deep socket or extension for clearance, and using a flex head ratchet with a shallow socket, the flex head is the safer choice. So too, given the choice between deep and semi deep, assuming both work, semi deep will require less counter holding.

My perspective: When I’m swapping an alternator on my daughter’s Honda, I can barely touch those fasteners at the bottom of the engine, let along counter hold them. This is one of the reasons why I think some cars are fun to work on and some aren’t and why I like having special tools that help me solve these sorts of issues. Maybe if I were younger, more flexible, or had a lift, I’d feel completely differently about the work I do, or the tools I have.

This explanation attempted to provide some rationale for why people have different views of similar tasks, tools, etc.

 

[Hakeem]

I use deeps on ratchets for hand clearance, I use shallows on impacts for a smaller profile.

 

[nicks78camaro]

Use them all the time. Modern vehicles you need as many options as you can get.

 

[Citation]

A little bit more info that I hope will help:

When you apply torque to a bolt head with a 0 degree wrench, the load you apply largely becomes the tightening or loosening torque the fastener sees. This is one reason why GOOD wrenches are awesome. They are among the most efficient tools we have. Also why I like LONG wrenches, and maybe why ratcheting wrenches are popular.

When you use a socket, the force you apply to the ratchet or breaker handle, produces 2 different torques, 90 degrees apart:

One is the loosening or tightening torque. The other is a torque or moment trying to roll the socket off the fastener head. When the socket fits REALLY well, sometimes it alone can react that second torque. This is yet another reason why mechanics prefer tight fitting sockets (and may not even realize this is why). It’s also a reason why it’s easier to round off a hex bolt with a socket rather than a box wrench.

The further away the ratchet head gets from the bolt head (whether you use a deep socket or an extension) the bigger this other torque gets. Depending on the applied load, many of us seek to react this rolling moment with our other hand. Many may prefer this, another secret reason why they prefer deep sockets.

But make no mistake about it. You are loosing energy using deep sockets. You are applying higher load to produce the torque required to remove a bolt. The shorter the socket, the more like a wrench it is, the more efficient it is.

PLEASE READ: I’m not trying to talk anyone out of using their deep sockets. It’s not dumb or wrong to use them all the time. This is just a physics thing that maybe not everyone on GJ thinks about. Sometime I use long ratchets not for torque but for reach. I’m always gonna use a shallow socket. This also explains why snap on makes a ratchet with a bent handle. My guess is many tool manufacturers don't really know why snap on did that. Many pros will say that is their favorite ratchet.

You aren't loosing "energy" (energy is force*distance and the vertical distance doesn't change). You are potentially applying torque in a way that doesn't help you get a job done but that isn't a loss of energy. /[removes pedantic hat]
I generally agree with your concern but the significance of that concern is proportional to how "deep" the socket is. I do see this as an issue when trying to get that 21mm suspension bolt off but most of the time access is far more important than using that last bit of force.

I, as a shade tree mechanic, use deep sockets most of the time. The reason is two fold. First, most of the time I need some amount of offset clearance to use the ratchet. The nut/bolt head is just in a bit of a well where a wrench or shallow socket can't reach or limits my range of motion. Second, with my original tool set I often found that, especially in my 3/8th range, a shallow socket + 3" extension (the one with the set) was too long. For example, trying to get bolts off a water pump pulley. You need a bit of clearance to avoid the sides of the pulley itself but if you have too much the ratchet is against the radiator. Thus for me, the deep sockets became the "just right" size. Later I realized that buying a 1" extension served much the same purpose. I have one now but still use mostly deep well sockets since I also have a lot of those now.

 

[Madjik Man]

Home DIY guy here.

Disclaimer: I love tools. I love having tools. I justify having a lot of tools by the fact I don’t drink, smoke or do drugs… so I can be addicted to tools.

That said, I have the space to house a bunch of tools and subscribe to the “better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it” philosophy.

The other day I was replacing my friend’s daughter’s rear quarter glass in her Tacoma and needed a deep 10mm. Couldn’t get a ratcheting wrench into the space. So I was glad I had that. And seemingly find myself in situations like this where it’s best to have the deep socket, or the tiny bit ratchet I thought I’d never use but have many times, etc

If you’re short on space: figure out what bolt head/nut sizes your vehicles use and just buy those singles in deep?

 

[AEAdam]

You aren't loosing "energy" (energy is force*distance and the vertical distance doesn't change). You are potentially applying torque in a way that doesn't help you get a job done but that isn't a loss of energy. /[removes pedantic hat]

Thats right. I wasn’t thinking about energy in terms of 1/2mv^2 but just exhaustion type energy.

For me, if I can get my hands and back into an advantageous position, I can generate tremendous force. I’m still very very strong. Bent over an engine bay, back twisted, contorted, can be the end of my day.

Now at nearly 63yrs old, that’s to be expected. But physics doesn’t change based on age. When I was younger I could get away with those inverse planks doing under dash work. But inefficient and strenuous, is inefficient and strenuous.

My hope is, when you guys leave this thread, you will leave with 3 thoughts I’ve shared:

1) How is the use of fixed head ratchets related to the use of deep sockets or extensions? Are you using deep sockets primarily for ratchet head clearance? Is it time to try flex head ratchets?

2) The whole counter hold thing associated with the offset between the ratchet head and the mating surface under the bolt head. Are there times when this is no problem vs times when maybe a shallow socket would be better?

3) Do you have decent wrenches? If your wrenches were longer, would they be more usable? Like a legit alternative to a socket.

 

[Wamsutta]

Deep sockets are for nuts that are threaded onto studs.

Sometimes the nut will be built into the stud as a one-piece nut/stud for automotive applications.

 

[micromind]

I use shallows unless I need a deep.