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New house furnace

rvr6000

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In the process of getting some estimates on a new high efficiency furnace and air conditioner for the house. Got a quote yesterday for a Trane system that seemed in the ballpark as far as what I was expecting to pay. Got another estimate today on two different systems by Coleman.

I'm afraid I don't know too much about Coleman heaters that didn't come out of a camper. Anyone got any opinions on them? Both systems are 60,000btu but one for the higher end Echelon line and one for their lower end LX line.

The estimate for the Trane system falls right in between the two Coleman estimates.
 
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rvr6000

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I should also mention both estimates came from reputable contractors that have been in the area for a long time so I have no problems going with either company. The warranty on the Coleman systems was a little better than the Trane system also.
 

shoot summ

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I just installed 2 95% variable speed Trane systems, so far I am VERY pleased with them.
 

Mike007

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Coleman is a re-badged York. You do not want Coleman or any York product, trust me. York was bought by Johnson Controls a few years ago and they completely ruined what was once a good solid middle of the road piece of equipment.
 

cowboyjosh

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2x on the Coleman / York Mike 007 stated above.

Trane and American Standard are one in the same, ditto for Lennox, Armstrong and Ducane, Goodman and Amana, Carrier, Payne, and Bryant, Rheem and Ruud. I hear some good things about Trane, Carrier, Rheem and Goodman, stay away from Lennox and their associated brands; parts are a ***** to come by, parts are expensive, and unfortunately Lennox isn't near the quality it was back in your parents or grand parents day.
 

FThera

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I've got two Rudd Modulating Nat. Gas and can tell you they have both been bullet proof. The comfort level from the modulating furnaces is something you have to experience to believe. The Rudd/Rheem modulating furnaces adjust between 40 and 100% fire in 5% increments as needed. They also have the variable speed DC blower motor. I went from 70% efficient to the Rudd's and have saved 20-25% on my gas bill, plus the DC motors have lowered my electric bill $25-30 a month.

Rudd/Rheem have been building modulating furnaces longer than most other mfg's and have it right. I had Trane's before and they were very reliable too, just not anywhere close to the comfort level of the modulating furnaces.
 

wfopete

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Perhaps the most important issue will be your dealer and the parts/labor warranty HE gives you. Many HVAC dealers (unlike the new car dealers) are independently owned and operated. This can mean that the dealer will determine the parts/labor warranty for your system and it does not have to meet the warranty of the manufacture. I purchased a new HVAC unit and although the manuacture's warranty for parts was 10 years, the dealer wrote it up for two years. Guess who ate the $1200 bill when the coil died four year later?

A service call depending on location can get expensive so can parts mark up. Might be a good idea to negotiate a cost for a service call, parts, etc. and get it in writing before purchase. there are alot of HVAC dealers looking for your $, make 'em work for it.
 

Mike007

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Perhaps the most important issue will be your dealer and the parts/labor warranty HE gives you. Many HVAC dealers (unlike the new car dealers) are independently owned and operated. This can mean that the dealer will determine the parts/labor warranty for your system and it does not have to meet the warranty of the manufacture. I purchased a new HVAC unit and although the manuacture's warranty for parts was 10 years, the dealer wrote it up for two years. Guess who ate the $1200 bill when the coil died four year later?

A service call depending on location can get expensive so can parts mark up. Might be a good idea to negotiate a cost for a service call, parts, etc. and get it in writing before purchase. there are alot of HVAC dealers looking for your $, make 'em work for it.

Thats too bad Pete. I hate to say it, but I think you were taken if you in fact paid for the new coil. (not labor). The manufacturers warranty has nothing to do with what the contractor puts on the contract. Even without any kind of receipt, the part warranty will typically be traced by the serial number back to when it was sold and the warranty honored.
 
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sammm

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I've had 2 Trane's installed in our last 2 houses. No complaints. Get them to throw in the 10 year parts and labor warranty too.
 

shoot summ

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Thats too bad Pete. I hate to say it, but I think you were taken if you in fact paid for the new coil. (not labor). The manufacturers warranty has nothing to do with what the contractor puts on the contract. Even without any kind of receipt, the part warranty will typically be traced by the serial number back to when it was sold and the warranty honored.

Correct, my new Trane systems come with a 10 year manufacturers parts warranty, and a 1 year dealer labor warranty.

I've heard of instances where the dealer did not register the warranty with the manufacturer and tried to get the consumer to eat the costs....
 

wfopete

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Correct, my new Trane systems come with a 10 year manufacturers parts warranty, and a 1 year dealer labor warranty.

I've heard of instances where the dealer did not register the warranty with the manufacturer and tried to get the consumer to eat the costs....

Well, Water Furnace (geo thermal) didn't back me up when I approached them about it. Sent the rep the paperwork and all with no luck. Said it was between me and Mr. Dealer.
 

Mike007

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Correct, my new Trane systems come with a 10 year manufacturers parts warranty, and a 1 year dealer labor warranty.

I've heard of instances where the dealer did not register the warranty with the manufacturer and tried to get the consumer to eat the costs....

I can only speak from my personal experience, which has been if the warranty card is not sent in, the only time on the warranty lost by the H.O. is the time between the equipment leaving the distributer and being installed. Which is usually just a few days. If it's sitting in a shop somewhere for a few years, thats a problem.
 
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rvr6000

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Thanks for the advice everyone. I want to get a third estimate and see what that looks like but I am leaning towards the Trane system. That contractor offers 5 years on labor which seems to be fairly standard.

I have a Carrier 80% furnace now that's about 10 years old (was installed just before I bought the house) and I have no idea how old the AC system is so I should see some pretty good savings.

The bids cover everything from permits and electrical as well as moving the AC compressor from the west side of the house to the north side. Kind of a win-win on that one as the compressor is right next to the deck now and gets full sun cooking on it. Now it will be on the north side where it will be quieter and protected from the southern and western sun.
 

jdaallen

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Castle Rock, Colorado
Perhaps the most important issue will be your dealer and the parts/labor warranty HE gives you. Many HVAC dealers (unlike the new car dealers) are independently owned and operated. This can mean that the dealer will determine the parts/labor warranty for your system and it does not have to meet the warranty of the manufacture. I purchased a new HVAC unit and although the manuacture's warranty for parts was 10 years, the dealer wrote it up for two years. Guess who ate the $1200 bill when the coil died four year later?

A service call depending on location can get expensive so can parts mark up. Might be a good idea to negotiate a cost for a service call, parts, etc. and get it in writing before purchase. there are alot of HVAC dealers looking for your $, make 'em work for it.

NOT TRUE:) The Manufacturer sets the waranty for the equipment they build, NOT the HVAC dealer. The manufactur can tell you, by the serial number, when it was sold and if it is under waranty at any given time. Dealers will try many time to sell you an additional waranty just like car dealers, and just like car dealers, the additional waranties are not worth the paper written on.
 

rickairmedic

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I sold Trane up till 99/2000 . I went to Carrier when Trane started having problems . ( Both Tops in the industry at the time ) . I have sold Goodman the whole time as a " cheaper system " . I now sell Goodman only as I have had fewer callbacks and warranty issues with them . They are the only company I can get a ten year parts and labor warranty from for $99.00 per piece of equipment . They are also the only company that has not told me " I had to pay them for the right to sell their equipment " . I am by the way getting ready to install a new Goodman Dual Fuel system in my house as thats how much I believe in the product I am selling.


Rick
 

Dragster Racer

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rickairmedic sounds exactly like the guy who does my furnace work. We have Goodman all around, and haven't had any troubles. Only about 18 months old though. Parts are easy to get. i like that.
 

Aggro Bikes

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I've got a buddy that just put a Buderus in his house and he's all geeked up on it. How do those compare to the Tranes and Carriers?
 

rickairmedic

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Trane and Carrier are living off their reputations they are not what they were 20 years ago . I will have to admit I am not familiar with Buderus.


Rick
 
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danski0224

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In the process of getting some estimates on a new high efficiency furnace and air conditioner for the house. Got a quote yesterday for a Trane system that seemed in the ballpark as far as what I was expecting to pay. Got another estimate today on two different systems by Coleman.

I'm afraid I don't know too much about Coleman heaters that didn't come out of a camper. Anyone got any opinions on them? Both systems are 60,000btu but one for the higher end Echelon line and one for their lower end LX line.

The estimate for the Trane system falls right in between the two Coleman estimates.

You are paying a premium for the Trane name.

Others here like Goodman, but their stuff is made to fit a price point- the low end. I have installed it and do not like it, and that is nothing more than a personal preference and should not be taken as brand bashing.

The biggest thing you need to be concerned with is proper installation, and this includes a load calculation. The ductwork also needs to be up to snuff if you are going with an ECM motor and/or anything other than a 1" fiberglass air filter.

A/C lines need to have proper brazing technique which includes a nitrogen purge and the use of a micron gauge. Specs are given right in the installation manual that is frequently unread.

A large number HVAC people do not know how to properly charge an AC unit, so good luck on that one. Lots of old habits and rules of thumb that will not die... and they did not work back in the day, either. Superheat and subcooling are key words that are not understood.

Good luck.
 

Mike007

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You are paying a premium for the Trane name.

Others here like Goodman, but their stuff is made to fit a price point- the low end. I have installed it and do not like it, and that is nothing more than a personal preference and should not be taken as brand bashing.

The biggest thing you need to be concerned with is proper installation, and this includes a load calculation. The ductwork also needs to be up to snuff if you are going with an ECM motor and/or anything other than a 1" fiberglass air filter.

A/C lines need to have proper brazing technique which includes a nitrogen purge and the use of a micron gauge. Specs are given right in the installation manual that is frequently unread.

A large number HVAC people do not know how to properly charge an AC unit, so good luck on that one. Lots of old habits and rules of thumb that will not die... and they did not work back in the day, either. Superheat and subcooling are key words that are not understood.

Good luck.

Danski hit the nail on the head for me with this post. Its absolutely true, at least around here, most techs do not use nitrogen during brazing, a micron gauge during evacuation, and either don't understand superheat and subcooling, or just don't care enough to be bothered to check it. Whom is doing the install is a lot more important then the brand being installed.
 

Rick98Z

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Danski and Mike said it perfectly! I just had heat exchanger replaced on my 9 yr old carrier furnace...Tech said problem occured thanks to 9yrs of the unit running with the vent lines improperly set and wrong pitch on the unit. I think it is a serious factor to have someone competent installing these things! Luckily my unit was under warranty and I just had to pay labor, but I did have to pay for replacing the vent lines, new burners, and new condensor pump which were shot. Tech said 90% of the time he can trace the cracked heat exchanger back to bad installation of the unit :( I went just shy of a week without heat on my 1st level of the house thanks to dealing with a shotty HVAC co who took forever figuring out the problem. I called in another company who deals with carrier and he had it fully diagnosed and pulled apart in 30min...

When we first built our house someone told me to find the most reputable HVAC person around, even it was three times the cost of everyone else. Because if the units aren't installed properly you will be nickle and diming it all the time! Wish I would have listened!!!
 

rickairmedic

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I also agree with Danski and Mike . One of the biggest problems in our industry is " price shopping " . The homeowner is looking for the best price not the best company. I know in my area there is a huge shortage of qualified technicians . I probably take 3-5 calls a week from guys looking for work . The first question I ask them is if they are licensed seldom do I hear back that yes they have their journeymans card. The problem here is all these guys have been working in the industry lets say 10-15 years and havent bothered to take the tests for their licenses. This to me means they are not qualified to do the job regardless of their time in service . To me a tech without a license is " A helper " and nothing more . One thing I tel all my perspective " price shopping customers " is to make sure that not only the person who comes out to do the bid is licensed but that the technicians comming out to do the job are also licensed . I can remember one customer over the years actually asking to see my license .

Rick
 

Mike007

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Sorry for getting off topic, but how about this Rick, we don't have an HVAC license in NJ. Nothing! With zero experience or knowledge, anyone can throw a sign on a station wagon and go and service and install fuel burning equipment in peoples homes. :wtf:
 

rickairmedic

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Mike thats plain Skeery . Here in Kentucky and many other states there is licensing for both journeymen and masters . I will say though there are lots of towns in Indiana that dont have license requiremements.

Rick
 
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rvr6000

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Rick - Thanks for the advice on the Goodmans. I have a guy coming out next week to give me a price on an Amana system (Amana makes Goodman, right?)

The most frustrating part of trying to find a new furnace is trying to find an honest review. There are few furnace reviews on the internet and the ones I do find I just don't believe..... 80 reviews: 37 hate 'em, 37 love 'em which leaves 6 reviews in the middle. Basic statistics tells you there can't realistically be that much of a difference of opinion....the curve is gonna be slanted one way or another.

Thanks again to everyone for your advice. This is about the next best thing to knocking on peoples doors and asking if they like their furnace.
 

rickairmedic

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RVR no problem . Actually Goodman owns Amana I believe not that it matters both good pieces of equipment " in my opinion " . I have personally had much fewer problems with Goodman equipment than any of the " big names " . I was called out on another thread where someone asked about Tempstar and I pretty much said RUN AWAY dont walk RUN I mentioned that they were one of the cheapest things out there and was reminded that I sell " Goodman " . Honestly my main issue with Tempstar/Heil is the stupid " Smart Valve " gas valves . I would love to know what idiot decided heeeey lets put a control board in this gas valve and see what happens . Hmmmmmmm high heat location plus vibration yeah thats a great idea . The boards come loose inside the valves and guess what you get to buy a new gas valve ( and not a cheap one by the way cause this one has a circuit board built into it ). One other little point Goodman passed Carrier in number of units sold last year and didnt spend $100,000,000.00 doing it which is what Carrier and some others spend a year making sure you know their name . Goodman has never spent a dime on advertising and has also never told me I had to Pay for the priveledge of selling their equipment . I also never got a call from Tranes or Carriers corporate guys asking me how I was doing . I get at least 1 to 2 calls a month from Ron at Goodman Corporate in New York wanting to know how I am doing and if theres anything he can do for me .


Rick
 
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FThera

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Try doing a google search for "HVAC Forum", and then go to their residential forum. If you spend some time reading there, you'll have a good feel about equipment mfg's. If you ask on HVAC, most there would say it's about the quality of the installation as much as the equipment. I realy like my Rheem/Ruud equipment.
 

danski0224

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RVR no problem . Actually Goodman owns Amana I believe not that it matters both good pieces of equipment " in my opinion " . I have personally had much fewer problems with Goodman equipment than any of the " big names " . I was called out on another thread where someone asked about Tempstar and I pretty much said RUN AWAY dont walk RUN I mentioned that they were one of the cheapest things out there and was reminded that I sell " Goodman " . Honestly my main issue with Tempstar/Heil is the stupid " Smart Valve " gas valves . I would love to know what idiot decided heeeey lets put a control board in this gas valve and see what happens . Hmmmmmmm high heat location plus vibration yeah thats a great idea . The boards come loose inside the valves and guess what you get to buy a new gas valve ( and not a cheap one by the way cause this one has a circuit board built into it ). One other little point Goodman passed Carrier in number of units sold last year and didnt spend $100,000,000.00 doing it which is what Carrier and some others spend a year making sure you know their name . Goodman has never spent a dime on advertising and has also never told me I had to Pay for the priveledge of selling their equipment . I also never got a call from Tranes or Carriers corporate guys asking me how I was doing . I get at least 1 to 2 calls a month from Ron at Goodman Corporate in New York wanting to know how I am doing and if theres anything he can do for me .


Rick

You are calling out a part that hasn't been put in new equipment for years.

Yes, the brown colored Smart Valves had problems.

Now, they are grey, and have controls and wiring inside that is no different from White Rodgers valves.

The only wiring and controls in current production smart valves pertains to the valve itself (voltage to the coils). Most other controls and safeties are on the furnace board... which is still exposed to heat and vibration when it is mounted to the blower housing. :bounce:

If you are going to bash equipment, at least be current.

It's like not buying diesel because of what GM did in the 80's... or not buying a Ford because of the exploding Pinto... or not liking the Chrysler K car.

Goodman is the largest HVAC equipment manufacturer in the USA, if not NAFTA.

They manufacture to meet a price point, not a quality point.

Tract home developers use Goodman because it is cheap.

The big names like Carrier, Trane, American Standard and even Heil/Tempstar, Rheem... ALL have low end pieces of equipment with big names on the box... otherwise known as "builders model".

Goodman has struggled to get the quality of their equipment better. It got better when they bought Amana.

Goodman warranty pay to dealers is very good compared to every other brand name out there.

Goodman will "void" warranties on internet sold equipment, yet the internet is full of Goodman equipment for sale. Apparently, Goodman doesn't really want to stop those boxes from being sold or ensuring that the boxes are sold to people that are "qualified" to install them. Next time Ron calls you, ask him about that. You don't see Lennox equipment for sale on the internet...

Yes, if a homeowner buys a Trane system, the company that sold it paid an extra 5% or so (don't remember the exact number) specifically for Trane advertising. It is tacked onto the supply house bill of sale. Nothing is free... and anyone that believes that a company is "giving away" rebate money is a fool.... that $$$ is being passed along somewhere.

If that Trane or Rheem system was sold through a big box store, the big box tacked on 7% to the contractors' price structure. They made their money.

Companies that have brand specific advertising on their trucks usually have a subsidized advertising allowance from the manufacturer. Note how big the equipment manufacturer logo is compared to the individual company logo (if it is even there).

No matter what a consumer buys, the advertising costs are paid (eventually) by that consumer. Trane just happens to tack it on instead of continuing to bury it in the wholesale cost structure.
 
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klhitman

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Everyone has the brand they love and the brand they hate. Sometimes you get a good unit and sometimes you get the one that is just ****.

I work for a hvac company in KY that modify units for trane. We just started to do york units and imo the trane unit is just better built. The place where we buy parts went from janitrol to good man then to comfort maker and now switching to another brand cause of tech support reasons.

But yes the equipment is only as good as the install. Get a lot of prices from a lot of companys. and ask a lot of ???? Before. During and after. Usually if you watch them install and ask what they are doing some won't do the little shortcuts.
 
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danski0224

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Everyone has the brand they love and the brand they hate. Sometimes you get a good unit and sometimes you get the one that is just ****.

We just started to do york units and imo the trane unit is just better built.

Absolutely... but, if someone is going to bash something, at least be current with the reasons.

I also think Trane pieces of equipment on the residential side are well made. The cabinet is or seems to be 2x the thickness of Goodman and the 1/4 turn door hardware is nice... and the "nice" comes with a price.

Kind of like Snap-On and Harbor Freight.
 

redsky49

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With all due respect, this is a pretty silly argument. As you can see, there are opinions all over the spectrum for which manufacturer is 'the best thing since sliced bread', and which would be described by others as pure junk.

In my career, I have pretty much specified Carrier, which in many cases was my "go to" vendor because of a couple of reasons:

The rep came often to my office.
The rep returned phone calls.
And most importantly, Carrier also makes a smaller soft cover catalog for the most specified equipment I could keep close at hand, meaning I wouldn't have to wrestle a large binder off the library shelf.

Yep, the catalog being more handy probably resulted in more Carrier sales than say, Trane.

Now that being said, the big three, Carrier, Trane and York, have all been used successfully and they also all have niches where they may have a small advantage over the other. York, for example, has large steam-fired chillers that the others can't match.

Do brands like Goodman call on engineering offices? Not in my experience. Does that make them better or worse than the big three? Hard to say. It does mean that they are not as likely to be specified and/or approved for many projects.

In many geographical areas, one manufacturer may have an advantage, generally based on the efforts of the local sales group. When I was in Denver in the '80's, Trane had a huge percentage of the work primarily due to the reps bustin' their butts to get the sales. This had nothing to do with the quality of the equipment compared to their competitors. It was simply good salesmanship.

Now rickairmedic has had a good relationship with Goodman and recommends that manufacturer. I think that is just fine. He likely has a good rapport with his distributor, he has had an extended period installing and servicing this particular brand, and no doubt would make most any home owner happy with his service. This is probably as good a reason to select a potential HVAC bidder as any. Danski0224 likely has the same type of story to tell.

But what about quality concerns for potential buyers? How can you tell if one brand is better than another? It's not at all easy.

Reading the sales propaganda, it's easy to cherry pick some particular feature or benefit and use that to their advantage. It frequently does little to inform the consumer in any meaningful way. Looking at the units from the outside certainly won't help, and even opening up the equipment doesn't always provide much additional insight.

The truth of the matter is that most of these various brands, both the large national players and the smaller regional ones, are primarily either assemblers of components made by others (compressors from Copeland, coils from Coil Company, fans from whomever, etc.) and only make the sheet metal and wiring harnesses in-house, or are re-branding equipment made by others to round out their product offerings. This has been mentioned in the posts above. As to who actually makes what, I have given up trying to figure it out!

More than any other factor, I would put my faith in the particular installer, get any promises in writing, and hope for the best. That may not be the most comforting thought, but there simply are no sure things in life and HVAC is no different. Regardless of brand of equipment, the installer is your first concern and that is where you should do your research and due diligence. Get an established, reputable, and well respected firm first, and only then look at prices.

And if possible, buy American :beer:

As always, offered only as opinion
 

Mike007

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With all due respect, this is a pretty silly argument. As you can see, there are opinions all over the spectrum for which manufacturer is 'the best thing since sliced bread', and which would be described by others as pure junk.

Just to back up my statement about York, I sold York 8 years. When someone would question the quality of York, I would explain to them it's all about the installation and tell them on jobs where my company installed York equipment, we averaged 1 warranty call a year. And it was the honest truth. At 7 years I literally had 7 warranty calls. And it was all very minor stuff, no compressors or anything major. Then Johnson controls bought York, that 7 jumped to well over 100 in a short time. It almost drove me out of business. In seven years I had zero evaporator coils leak. Over the next 2 years I had over 40 and that number is steadily rising. Seems York had a bad run of coils. The frustrating part is they knew, and continued selling them. They even denied there was a problem for a long time telling me it was only me having the problem. And then on top of it, York started to try and charge shipping for the replacement coils. I had one customer I installed 4 coils in his home, 3 York which all leaked, and the 4th I installed an Aspen, at my expense I might add. It got to a point where literally every other job I was having problems with the equipment right out of the box. I haven't sold York in over a year, but the problems still haunt me. I installed a 98% modulating York Affinity for a woman 14 months ago. This was Yorks best furnace. A few weeks ago I had to spend a 1/2 a day there basically rebuilding the furnace. Now I sell a Nordyne product and things are 100% better and back to normal and I couldn't be happier.
 

rickairmedic

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I will agree that I have not worked on any " current " Tempstar units mostly older ones so as Danski says they may have infact resolved the issue i I can also remember a day when selling Trane or Carrier that we all called " Goodman " Junkatrol as they also used the Janitrol name at that time and it seemed easier to sell you that inflated price Trane or Carrier when we called the competition garbage . Personally I would be a happy camper if Trane would go back to the equipment they were selling until the late 90's in my personal opinion that was some of the best equipment ever made . The unfortunate truth is they are not made the same today " with the same components " as they were then and again in my opinion are not as good as they once were . One thi ng to ask any salesman selling you a new heating and air system is " Whats in his house " granted this isnt going to prove anything either but if the salesman actually believes in what he is selling then that should be whats in his house.


Rick
 

csp

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Get an established, reputable, and well respected firm first, and only then look at prices.

Absolutely.

One good thing about the bad economy is it has weeded out a lot of the guys who have a pickup truck and a screw gun and think they are in the HVAC business. A good friend of mine who has been in HVAC since 1980 makes a lot of money cleaning up messes and making repairs that a lot of these jackwipes have made. I help him if he has a big job and I have the time and it's amazing to see some of the utter garbage workmanship that goes into some people's homes. I'd be ashamed if it were my work.

Be sure that your installer is also pulling a permit if it's required in your locality!!
 
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