More snap on pricing reasons

[smalltruck]

I'm a new guy here. But I am a mechanic that works on semi's in Minnesota. And I've seen more than a few people say they will never buy truck branded tools because of some reason that Kobalt, masterforce C-Man is better and cheaper. For 99% of the work I do thats correct. But that 1% is a killer. These pics were taken tonight on an 2004 freightliner with a MBE 4000 series engine. The nuts holding the turbo on are supposed to be 16mm wrench size. One of the 4 was still a 16mm. The rest varied from a 9/16 to a tight 15mm. The reason I only use Snap on or Cornwell wrenches is they can take abuse and stand up. When it's like this you get one good chance to get the nut off, after that it gets ugly fast. The pic of the socket is a 16mm nut so rusted I hammered a 15mm SO socket on it to remove it. The socket is fine.

 

[gluckmysock]

nothing in our shop can outperform my SO flank drive +. They can match it(cause they are also SO FD+) He He. I work on Penndot equipment, and the salt has no mercy on steel. And yes even the stainless steel suffers. But to watch another tech stuggle, and me come over and whip out my snappys and usually make quick work of it, generally means they soon replace their crapsman with SO.

 

[eborcim]

yup +1

 

[sberry]

And I've seen more than a few people say they will never buy truck branded tools because of some reason that Kobalt, masterforce C-Man is better and cheaper.

Only half accurate, I don't see people claiming Kobalt is better.

For 99% of the work I do thats correct. But that 1% is a killer.

This is likely accurate and for a pro doing continuous work on heavily rusted seized hi torque fasteners having a selection of wrenches and some sockets especially in the smaller sizes of real quality pays. I have a few myself.
What I hate to do is leave the impression especially among guys that cant afford it is that they need every snappy ever made to do anything or that they have to do without if they need something to work with. 99% of our work is done with a cheaper end wrench and spread out over a dozen of them in the same size.
I would have 600 alone in 9/16 lets say if every one was top dollar but some used and some 1$ imports and I got 50$ in them and toss a 25$ snappy in for the rare occasion where it makes any difference in and I am in it for 75.
When I start to factor in risk, damage or more likely loss it changes the numbers again, and as important is having tools to meet the demand, especially when convenience is everything and the 1$ wrench will work the numbers are huge. Many times a tool cam return multiples of its cost on one occasion, multiply those countless times during the week and it can drive the cost to near disposable prices. With the proliferation of the box stores the stuff is affordable on demand, I am not scared to buy extra if needed.

 

[MrSnicks]

Aren't those kinds of nuts/bolts the reason torches were made???

Patrick

 

[rocklobster]

Aren't those kinds of nuts/bolts the reason torches were made???

Patrick

X2 or what about these twist sockets, I have a set and they work good:

But I understand what you are saying about how quality is important when you need it.

Sberry: Hey I know you from the Weldtalk forum!

 

[sberry]

I have generally hung out at Hobart, come over here when its a little slow.
I have been threatening to get a set of those twisty socket things, I see them in the sale flyer's reasonable right from the parts store. There are so many ways to deal with damaged fasteners. Cut off, grab with straight jaw vise grips, weld to them, usually resort to what is handy, don't think about it again until next time.
I have been down the turbo job road that was in the original post. Seems like I looked and couldn't come up with the 3/8 drive shallow 6 pt I needed, it was eroded, corroded and a weird spot or access, in a cubby, its been 10 yrs but I do recall the problem. As I recall it was problematic enough I decided I didn't want to screw it up, at that time called the parts store and had a SK socket delivered in an hour with some other parts for about 8$. Problem solved and have used it once or twice since.
I mostly work on my own equipment, provide all the tools and lots of it doesn't really have a home, it kind of circulates on active projects, on service carts in various locations and stages of use, gets hung up in nearest rack, many multiples with less used stuff returned to chests. Simple combination wrenches, 7, 1/2, 9's, 3/4, 15/16 and most metrics we use on one service cart that is for auto. Then its impacts, 9, 3/4, some 7/8 15 and 1 1/8. About 20 pairs of channeloks, about 40 adjustables, mostly 8 inch thru 12 with a few 15's tossed in, couple 18's. All hose clamps standardized as much as possible along with self drillers at 5/16 so about a 100 screwdrivers and nut runners and 3 dozen various hammers as well as 30 more pair of wire cutters/pliers of various types.

 

[smalltruck]

Aren't those kinds of nuts/bolts the reason torches were made???

Patrick

The answer is yes and no. Some of this stuff has a lot more wires and lines in this area so large amounts of heat has the ability to create lots of spendy problems. One trick is to use an air hammer with a punch bit on whats left of one of the wrench flats. Rattle the nut about 3~4 seconds and then see if you can get it to turn going loose seems to be the easiest way to handle these.

Twisty sockets...if they work it's great. When they don't it's torch time usually. See above about LARGE amounts of heat, lines and wires....

 

[joshthedieseltech]

X2 or what about these twist sockets, I have a set and they work good:

But I understand what you are saying about how quality is important when you need it.

Sberry: Hey I know you from the Weldtalk forum!

I would have just uses one of these for that, I have beat the **** out of sockets getting on bolts all craftsman and never broke them.

Now on the performance, nothing comes close to those flank drive wrenches, you can have a bolt near round and they still work great and bite real good.

 

[amolaver]

rationalize your spending all you want. modern tools from half a dozen sources work just as well for 1/4 or less the price. hell, i think most of the wright stuff is significantly better quality than SO for 1/2 the price. my gearwrench SD+ works just as well as FD+ as its the same thing. hell, the wrenches seem to be TOUGHER than SO, although thicker in the beam. my sunex and genius impact sockets cost around 1/10 - that's right 10% - of what SO would be and i haven't had one fail yet.

the price difference is so great, it is cheaper to literally buy two spare sets of everything from one of the multitude of options available. there is zero objective reason to spend the coin on SO/mac. if you like 'em, great. but lets stop pretending there is some magic in SO tools that makes them better - they're just not.

ahm

 

[philw]

I wondered how long it would take someone to flame this thread.

 

[Wrenches of Death]

Aren't those kinds of nuts/bolts the reason torches were made???

Exactly what I was thinking. It's not like you'd want to reuse those studs either.

WoD

 

[ibedayank]

i would be using 6point not 12 point right from the start... but thats just me

 

[ibedayank]

Sberry the twist sockets are worth the $ even if you use them just once they grip when vicegrips wont

 

[rsanter]

I used to think that snap on was overpriced and not worth it because the craftsman was just as good for less money.
the truth was that craftsman (and others) was good enough for what I was doing that I could not see the difference, when I started wrenching as a 'pro' I started with the cman (and other) stuff I had. I used to only buy snap on special stuff that you could not get just anywhere. I now have mostly snap on because only when you are working as a 'pro' and using the tools hard do you realize the difference.
so the question is, whats the difference?
less broken tools....who cares they are lifetime guaranteed
less broken tools means less time spent going to exchange them at the store
less broken tools means less time using an alternate tool to try to get the job done
less broken tools means less busted knuckles
less busted knuckles means less injuries
less busted knuckles means a better attitude
less injuries means I can work faster
less injuries means I dont loose work time
etc

if you look at the number of tools I have broken over the years, I bet I have had to swap out under 20 snap on tools
when I was wrenching professionally (and had my own shop) it was not unheard of to have 20 craftman tools in my 'broken can' to take in to swap in a month
hell I have broken 2 of the raised panel 1'' wrenches, Im sure I have broken at least 20 of the 1/2 wrenches

bob

 

[amolaver]

frankly, craftsman isn't (mostly) in the group of sources i'd consider. they have a few items that are decent (their 1/2" deep impact socket set that goes on sale for ~$40 comes to mind). how much is a 10mm-24mm deep impact set from SO?

while most people who have dual80's seem to love them, there are LOTS of broken ones talked about on GJ. hell, i got all 3 (1/4, 3/8, 1/2) of the new 'premium' 84t craftsman ratchets for about what ONE SO costs. my gearwrench ratchets, while only 60T, have been tough as nails and have an almost identical comfort grip to the SO. my gearwrench wrenches have been ridiculously tough, surviving being run over by dually, being left out in a sandy, rainy paddock multiple times, and regularly being double wrenched. i have yet to have a single sunex, genius, or gray pneumatic impact socket fail. i'm into them for somewhere on the order of 1/6th or less the SO price.

of course, eventually some of these tools will break. and when they do, i'll expect them to be warrantied. if i have to, i'll buy an entire replacement set to tide me over, and i'll still be into the tools for less than 1/3 of SO prices in most cases...and i'll have two sets.

like i said, you can rationalize buying SO by implying they have some magic fastener dust that makes them 'better'. or you can just say, i like the way they feel in my hand and that makes them worth more to me. nothing wrong with that. but there just isn't any objective measure that makes them better at taking off and tightening fasteners. the objective testing done indicates a modern competitor - be it wright, proto, gearwrench, toptul, etc - are all almost identically strong. http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=37111

ahm

 

[Sancho]

Sberry the twist sockets are worth the $ even if you use them just once they grip when vicegrips wont

I have to second that, used these a few times to save my *** from rounded bolts. Most notably to pull a rounded wheel bolt to access a hydro pump that had exploded. Needless to say heat was out of the question at that point.

 

[garfunkle24]

I wondered how long it would take someone to flame this thread.

That's not flaming, it's a valid opinion.

I have a lot of $$$ ******* in high-end tools, but I also understand the law of diminishing returns and realize that I am often paying 300 - 400% more for an extra 1 - 2% in performance.

As much as I like premium tools, they are difficult to objectively justify in most applications.

 

[Wrenches of Death]

I have a lot of $$$ ******* in high-end tools, but I also understand the law of diminishing returns and realize that I am often paying 300 - 400% more for an extra 1 - 2% in performance.

I understand fully. I've thought along these lines for many years but never really thought about putting it into cognitive words to explain it to someone else.

"Diminishing returns" pretty much covers it perfectly.

Thanks!

WoD

 

[ibedayank]

sometimes the tooltruck aka snapon is the only option if the tools are making you the money to make it worth the purchase or sometimes only place you can get them.
It is that simple.

 

[csargents1546]

I agree with the advantages of SO FD+ wrenches.

 

[smalltruck]

i have yet to have a single sunex, genius, or gray pneumatic impact socket fail. i'm into them for somewhere on the order of 1/6th or less the SO price.

ahm

I have several sunex and GP sockets. And I've broken a few of them but the warranty was there so that's all good.

The turbo job I pictured took me less than 3 hours to do the swap. When the clock is ticking on my production numbers that get me bonus cash I want and need all the advantages I can get. There are certain things that I know work well and so I bought them. If and when I can find things that met those needs for a cheaper price I buy the cheaper item.

What I think is funny is that I bash SO more than most for what I view as very predatory business practices. But give them their due, they do steel well, as well as anyone and they usually get the price they want. And yes on certain days I have paid that price and I still don't complain about what I bought.

 

[amolaver]

<SNIP>

The turbo job I pictured took me less than 3 hours to do the swap. When the clock is ticking on my production numbers that get me bonus cash I want and need all the advantages I can get. There are certain things that I know work well and so I bought them. If and when I can find things that met those needs for a cheaper price I buy the cheaper item.

I totally understand this, but its an ROI thing. if your tools cost you 6x what mine cost, how many jobs is it going to take to recoup that difference? How much faster are you with SO wrenches rather than GW? i really think that answer is, 'not at all.' there are certainly some tools that ARE objectively better - APEX 1/4" bits, people seem to swear by SO's gold torx bits (although my VIMs have held up great) - but the typical hardline stuff; sockets and wrenches, i just don't believe has any advantage over the competition and the pricing is ludicrous. like i said, i could keep spares of EVERY TOOL I OWN and still be into them for way less than 1/2 one set of SO.

at this point in our history, where we are manufacturing computer chips with 32 nanometer traces (that's BILLIONTHS of a meter), the technology, know-how, and cost to forge a socket is not cutting edge. there is no reason for the massive premium SO gets - the competition may not have a truck at your shop, but they'll warranty them through the mail or retail outlets.

if the convenience of having the truck there is enough to justify the price for you, ok, i don't see it, but not my money.

What I think is funny is that I bash SO more than most for what I view as very predatory business practices. But give them their due, they do steel well, as well as anyone and they usually get the price they want. And yes on certain days I have paid that price and I still don't complain about what I bought.

yes, their tools are excellent quality. its just that so are others who manage to make and sell them for a LOT less money.

ahm

 

[philw]

amolaver, have you ever worked as a flat rate auto tech? The convenience is a huge difference to some people. For example, for me to run to the nearest Sears costs me $8 in gas and at least an hours time.

I would avoid comparing Snap on to other import tool companies because tools cost more when you have American employees, health benefits, and American taxes.

If you want to compare then you should use the price range such as Wright.
Wright is probably the best value for the money but they have a very limited selection and warranty is difficult for most people.

 

[kc-steve]

This is GREAT STUFF here where people are actually giving good reasons and logic for their tool preferences. No one is wrong and everyone is right when it comes to their specific needs. Diminishing returns is important for everyone to consider. However, those people that spend high dollars on tools in order to "adorn" their toolbox could spend their money on better things though.


Steve

 

[AZ_Catskinner]

Is everything that says Snapon on it superior? No. It all depends on each user, and his application. I absolutely HATE Dual80 ratchets. Does that make them bad? No. Some guys love them, but that doesn't make them the best thing since sliced bread either.

I LOVE my Knucklesavers, but a lot of guys here would go "Mac?!? ewww, gross". Does that make them better or worse?

Are truck tools worth the extra cost? For some people and in some applications. There is absolutely NO reason for the typical do it yourself type guy to blow his whole paycheck on Snapon sockets and ratchets for weekend wrenching. On the other hand, a pro wrench isn't likely to be all that enthused with a set of Kobalts that would be more than adequate for the weekend warrior

 

[Boiler]

I still don't see why some can like them and some can buy cheap, without both sides hating each other. Why do you guys care if others think snap on tools are the best?

In general, they've got great tools in every catagory. Makes it easy to not have to research every little tool purchase to death to get one at equal quality for less money. How much time have some of you guys wasted researching and shopping your tools to death to get the perfect deal?

For someone to spend 10 grand on basic hand tools they use in their job over the course of 10 years isn't that big of a deal. Certainly not a big enough deal to get hate from random haters over.

There is absolutely NO reason for the typical do it yourself type guy to blow his whole paycheck on Snapon sockets and ratchets for weekend wrenching. On the other hand, a pro wrench isn't likely to be all that enthused with a set of Kobalts that would be more than adequate for the weekend warrior

Weekend wrenching can benefit from quality tools. Obviously weekend wrenchers don't need to drop all their check on tools...but a $100 near new wrench set off ebay, or nice high tooth count ratchet? Nothing wrong with someone who uses tools often to have some quality items.

I wouldn't suggest anyone, even the most everyday homeowner buy Kobalt. Talk crappy value. Relatively high price for relatively low quality. If you're going to spend that type of money at least get some VIM, williams, blue point, sk, etc, or even go cheap and HF.

 

[DrkMtnDew]

Are truck tools worth the extra cost? For some people and in some applications.

this is a very good statement that applies not only to truck tools, but all tools.

 

[ddrewyor]

And I've seen more than a few people say they will never buy truck branded tools because of some reason that Kobalt, masterforce C-Man is better and cheaper. For 99% of the work I do thats correct.

That's why only 1% of my tools are SO It was a real tough time figuring out which 1% to make SO though! Seriously the majority of my tools are C-man and I wrench for a hobby vs. a living. My tools do what I need, but I will admit that the SOs are seemingly of higher quality than the C-man tools - especially the new items.

As far as a torch on these types of nuts, use this little baby and it is a done deal with no flames or excess heat:

http://www.autotronheater.com/default.asp?ID=14

Dave

 

[tw33k2514]

the number one reason a professional buys truck tools is the convenience of the trucks coming right to you. Which really, is why I do not understand how a professional could not want truck tools. If you make money off of your tools, what could possibly be better than having them come to you? There is this kid in the shop I work at who every time he breaks a tools he has to barrow that tool for however long it takes him to run to Sears. Which sometimes is days. Makes no sense to me.

And if a DIYr wants to use truck tools, so be it. Some people just like quality things.

 

[treasureseeker]

There is the perception that the best cost more.

 

[Tavy]

I'm in the same sort of boat in a truck shop, as Smalltruck. For the most part, I had a full-set (sans a couple oddballs) of Craftsman tools when I started -- stuffed in various cotton canvas bags and rolls and things because I had worked on a farm.
For a long while, they got the job done while I was learning the ropes. Then, like he said, the clock is ticking. Since we're a Thermoking dealership, reefers are a part of life -- and a loaded trailer with a few hundred grand in product that isn't cooling and has already been FUBAR for almost a full-day is a freaking nightmare to fix when your stupid wrench breaks trying to get an alternator off before things thaw and the load is fudged.
It pretty much boiled down to that. Either not being able to use the tool for the job (open-ends on a Flank Drive Plus are a must for Tripacs/Carriers) or the damn thing breaking and having to go to Sears on the weekend to replace it. Snap-On comes, the rep's a good guy, and the rare, rare occasion something breaks or doesn't perform -- he hears about it.
The offset service wrench kits are real nice for the tubing fittings, too, and the open ends don't slip and fudge the brass up.

Lots of standard sockets, hammers, prybars, punches, Torx lotsa T-27s, a few big 1-1/8" sockets in 3/4" drive for real stubborn stuff and mounts, adjustable wrenches. One of the guys in the shop got a 40" adjustable wrench a few months ago, damn thing was looking useless until we had to turn some big hose fittings or turn a kingpin (1" impact stumbled).

 

[William Payne]

I am only a hobbiest but am in training in the engineering trade, I don't get to use my personal tools often but I find myself buying what I like based on what I have used in the past and liked. My dad who has never spent huge money on tools more because he was never in a position to allways says that how the tool feels in your hand is very important, my dad even went so far as to take his own tools to a job where tools were supplied for that very reason.

Whats that got to do with snap-on well as I said in another thread, I just for my own personal reasons don't like sloppy ratchet mechanisms and my snap-on ratchet is not the least bit sloppy, does that mean everyone should spend the money I did to buy a ratchet like that..... **** no, it was expensive but for me it fits what I personally like.

 

[ibedayank]

And if a DIYr wants to use truck tools, so be it. Some people just like quality things.

but how long does it take for the truck to come to you?

 

[ibedayank]

hey TAVY .... on tubing fittings you should be using a FLARE wrench they dont slip... Right tool for the right job.

 

[treasureseeker]

I just keep trading up. I had a lot more Craftsman when I joined this forum than now. I sold my last Craftsman ratchet today. I could never afford truck prices for Snapon and have been piecing together wrench sets off of EBay.

 

[canuckian]

but how long does it take for the truck to come to you?

I'm sure you knew this but the trucks normally don't go to the DIY'er's shop but seeing as time isn't money (in most cases) to DIY'ers like myself, it doesn't make any difference, though I'm sure my truck guy would stop by my place on his way home if I needed him to. Plus, I'd rather deal with him thna some of the snotty-nosed idiots I've run across in most Sears, HD, etc.

Do I buy Snap On tools? yes I do. Do I need Snap On tools? absolutely not. I buy them because I like using quality tools. Same reason I have some Matco, Wera and a few others. I spent the better part of my life using consumer grade tools and for the most part, they did the job but often frustrated me when they rounded off fasteners, broke or mis-functioned (I may have invented a word there) in some way or another. I'm finally in a position in my life where I can afford to upgrade my hand tools to something I enjoy and look forward to using. I don't have what i call a complete set yet but I will someday and I will pass those tools on to my son. Most of the consumer grade stuff I have left will either be broken by me or given away and broken by then but I'm willing to bet the SO stuff will all be very serviceable and still have a lifetime warranty.

but, in relation to the original post, though I'm not a pro, I have seen situations where a regular wrench will round off a bolt when a FD+ will grip on to it better and remove it with little fuss. At the same time ,as others have mentioned, on shiny and softer fasteners, they have a tendancy to scuff them up.

 

[greasemonkey44]

How much faster are you with SO wrenches rather than GW? i really think that answer is, 'not at all.'

actually alot faster esp if there are clearance issues, gearwrenches have a thicker body around the ratchet wheras matco and snappy have thinner bodies making really tight squeezes possible. most automotive work is in very tight quarters and a gearwrench is too thick
same goes for sockets, i use a cman set at work. i was pulling a starter from an accord and couldnt get my 3/8 14 mm to fit between the starter and bolt head. grabbed a snap on and it fit way better, had thinner walls on it. I couldve just grabbed a 1/4 14 mm but if i was under a clock id be pissed and buying a full set of snap on the next day.
i understand wanting and having the best and honestly snap on is. If you dont want to spend your money on it dont, plenty of tech use cman and other stuff.

 

[ibedayank]

Only ones i have ever rounded off were rusted to the point a 6point was sloppy.

 

[ngk22r]

Personal preference is the key here. When I was just a DIY over 15 years ago my craftsman set was perfect for me. But I wasnt using my tools to make money back then and I did not have the money to buy tool truck brand tools. Then when I got into the professional side of car work I still thought my craftsman set was good enough.... Today this is not true, but that is in my case.

About a month into starting my career after having to borrow this and borrow that, it was not possible for me to stop working to run to sears which was 20 minutes away one way and not including the time spent shopping for the tool. Tools were breaking, mainly sockets splitting but then ratchets getting worn and skipping. Scrapping fingers was getting old and the wrenches open ends spreading and rounding off nuts and bolts was costing me too much time. I will be honest, I thought I would never need to step foot on a tool truck....

Then my coworker let me borrow a flank drive plus wrench to remove a stubborn nut that the craftsman wrench slipped and rounded part of it. That day set motion to me buying tools from good ol snap-on. But I was also on the cornwell truck, matco truck and mac truck as well. Not knowing which tool company was right for me. It was then narrowed down to just cornwell and snap-on for a couple years and then I moved to another dealer which did not have cornwell so I stuck with snap-on from then on out.

Traded in almost all the other name brand tools for snap-on when I became more and more devoted the snap-on, but why? Because it felt the best in my hand and worked the best for me. Also over the years learning and mastering the best tool to use for what situation and then how to use it properly saved alot of time and made the tools last a long time with very very very little need to warranty it out.

But there are some where matco, mac, or cornwell is their brand. And guess what, they will praise and stick behind their product and that is 100% perfectly fine. Snap-on, matco, mac and cornwell is not for everyone, but for those it is the livelyhood of what makes them what they are. Harbor freight, craftsman and what ever other brand for the DIY'r is perfect for them. You cannot argue a person choice in tools, only how it works for you.