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Shower Pan-Build or Buy?

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ddawg16

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If you were building a somewhat standard size shower....say 34x60....would you build the shower pan or just buy one?

Next question....if you buy one...they basically come in two flavors....finished surface (no tile on it) or tile ready....

The wife and I have just spent the past half hour and 1/2 bottle of wine discussing the options....the wine is kicking in so other 'options' are coming to light....
 
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darkk

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Dec 24, 2009
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My son in law is a plumber and owns the business. I asked and he says *all* mud floor tile shower basins leak because of eventual cracks. No way around it. Said if I wanted tile to buy a tile ready basin. I guess the biggest problem is in the drain hole. Almost impossible to keep them from failing. I know some have probably had this type for a 100 years, but there are exceptions to everything. Makes a lot of sense to me...
 

shoot summ

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Haven't used Schluter but hear alot of good things about it(other than cost).

I've built 2 showers using the traditional PVC pan/mortar bed method. It's really very easy, the PVC membrane is very durable, surprised that a properly installed pan would be affected by cracks in the slab.

Check out johnbridge.com for alot of tile/pan advice.

Things have changed a bit on PVC pan installs as now most suggest you preslope the floor instead of sloping the base inside the pan. Helps water trapped in the pan to drain.
 

chickenhauler

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Pennsylvania
I read so much on Kerdi, making your own, buying pans, etc. and the pros and cons to all of them, and then finally just decided to put a Jacuzzi fiberglass base in. I knew if I tiled the floor, the grout would need attention sooner than the sides. I don't regret my base at all.

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rsa

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Between Raleigh and Fayetteville, NC, USA
I went with a mud job instead of the Schluter tray for two reasons: the bathroom has an open shower and in-floor electric heat, including under the shower area. To his credit, my tile contractor agreed to use Kerdi for the first time. He wouldn't do it without also putting in a liner. :)

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hydramatic

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Alabama
use a rubber floor pan...55 mil thick..tied into a special oatey floor drain...mud on top of that with tile.. no problem
 

back2class

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I am doing a mud pan right now. NEVER would I do it unless the situation was such that site built mud and liner was the only option. First choice would be quality fiberglass because of ease of install and they don't leak. Looks ok in any home under $300,000. If you want to have tile base, or have a home where less expensive materials will stand out like sore thumbs, then the tile over composite shells is the best option. Very few contractors do proper mud pan installs and they fail far too often! I did have a 100 year old house that was very high end where the mud shower did not leak untill the metal drain just coroded after nearly 100 years. The solution was to slide a smaller drain into the drain hole and last I know this repair I did was still working fine.
 

shoot summ

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I am doing a mud pan right now. NEVER would I do it unless the situation was such that site built mud and liner was the only option. First choice would be quality fiberglass because of ease of install and they don't leak. Looks ok in any home under $300,000. If you want to have tile base, or have a home where less expensive materials will stand out like sore thumbs, then the tile over composite shells is the best option. Very few contractors do proper mud pan installs and they fail far too often! I did have a 100 year old house that was very high end where the mud shower did not leak untill the metal drain just coroded after nearly 100 years. The solution was to slide a smaller drain into the drain hole and last I know this repair I did was still working fine.

I'm on the other end, I would only do a fiberglass(I don't use the word quality with them) in a rental house or maybe a garage/shop. They look cheap, because they are cheap, they also feel cheap.

Just my opinion, no offense intended....
 

mtne

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Denver
Just my personal take being a DIY with a research fetisch.....

Mud the pan using schluter kerdi drain and kerdi to seal it. Either Kerdi-board or drywall and kerdi on the walls. Ditra for the floors outside of the wet area unless your using small floor tiles.

For those of you who would like to become better educated about proper techniques in tile setting, water proofing, and related issues, go over to JohnBridge.com and do some reading. Be sure to check out the reference library, the Deflectometer, and the Best and Worst tile threads.......
 

VWandDodge

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Just my personal take being a DIY with a research fetisch.....

Mud the pan using schluter kerdi drain and kerdi to seal it. Either Kerdi-board or drywall and kerdi on the walls. Ditra for the floors outside of the wet area unless your using small floor tiles.

For those of you who would like to become better educated about proper techniques in tile setting, water proofing, and related issues, go over to JohnBridge.com and do some reading. Be sure to check out the reference library, the Deflectometer, and the Best and Worst tile threads.......

Great post. I found the JohnBridge site by happenstance last week while searching for information for my own bathroom remodel.

As others have stated, a fiberglass pan looks like *** and is best left to a garage.
 

kbs2244

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Go to the local plumbing supply house and get a terrazzo one made to size.
It takes about a week.
You will need outside dimensions, drain hole location, type of wall (tile covered green board?) etc.
Within reason you can even spec a color.
It will be heavy. Terrazzo is just concrete. But it will not crack or leak.
 

Frank The Plumber

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I would do a fiberglass shower base, a good quality Kohler or a National Fiberglass products base. Look at their online catalogs, both of these products are a full color gel coat which means they are buffable and refinishable.

A few years ago I specialized in Roman style lead pan construction. The Romans had perfected bathing tubs and vessels in 200 BC. They had large public saunas in full tile with hot and cold running waters. Many examples of Roman Spas are still in existence today.

OK, so Why the F can't we get a decent product in the year 2011, are we not smarter.
Yes we are but we are cheap as well. The Roman lead pan had some critical materials and techniques that we simply omit because we are cheap. We actually have several systems that while not quite as high quality as the Roman system will endure better than the average junk.

So what is this Roman technique?

The Roman technique starts on a good foundation, a base of high grade volcanic low acid concrete is poured and cured, it is coated in pure wax to water proof it. A series of jute fibre drainage and weapage lines are run so that any moisture will wick it's way out of the sub base. The lead sheet is worked into the space, all acids fluxes etc are carefully neutralized. A second set of wickage ropes of jute are installed to drain water or vapor from this layer. A layer of volcanic mortar base in formed into the space and sculpted to shape, it is also low acid Neutral PH mortar. A tile is mortared into the space and allowed to cure for several days. Grout is added and cured.

Our systems fail primarily due to acidic mortar reaction upon the water proofing layer.

Insufficient drying time between processes.

Poor craftsmanship.

Skipped steps within the system.

Poor material drain choice.

It put a $17,000 lead pan into a spa in a Chicago suburb, my lead work encompassed 9 days of crafting, wicking and testing. The home owners tile man walked into the job site with 20 sheets of durock and began screwing the durock into the lead bitching the entire time the the A hole plumber should have put plywood under the surface because now his screws could not catch.
Under the lead was a properly cured and sealed concrete sub base which he decided tap cons would over come.
Fortunately the GC saw what he had done, stopped him and removed him from the site.
He did around $6,000 in damage in about 5 hours.
They contacted a fountain tiler from Italy, flew him in and together we finished the job, I spent 6 days there rebuilding the sub base and renewing the pans.
The installation is now 20 years old and still looks fantastic.
 

holdover

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I have two one piece tub and shower fiberglass enclosures in my home, they are 35 yrs old and still perfect. They were made by Powers-Fiat and cost about 500 in 1977, they are about 3/8" thick with reinforcement. We did not want a tile bath, and still don't, and it has nothing to do with cost.

Now with that being said if you are going to do a tile bath do not skimp on the materials, do it or have it done correctly the first time. A lead pan like Frank the plumber mentions is the "class act." There are many contractors out there making a great living on redoing incorrect work.
 

edsollen

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Another option, virginiamarble.com
We install a lot of these, look great and last forever.
 

Frank The Plumber

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I would love information on how to build a Lead Pan as Frank has detailed.

The lead is brutally expensive, the process is considered to be very toxic and the market for it is completely gone.
The last really magnificent pan job I did was in 2001 in a Hi rise condo.
Since then the material availability has gotten sparse, it's all but a lost art.

I had a whole kit of formers and oak slappers and stretchers for working lead.
I had the mask for pulling my air from another area,I had all of the acetylene torches and jewelers tips for joining sheets. I can't even get a quality jute for running the wicking strings anymore. Very sad. Poly has stolen this art from us.
 

jrsulo

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Feb 23, 2010
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New Jersey
Just finished a tile ready shower today,36X26......nice set up.....the tile sets in epoxy,one piece including the drain. I dont see how it could leak.
 
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danski0224

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Our systems fail primarily due to acidic mortar reaction upon the water proofing layer.

Insufficient drying time between processes.

Poor craftsmanship.

Skipped steps within the system.

Poor material drain choice.

I bet these are 90% of the problem.

Thinset does not cure in a day, neither does grout (not the epoxy stuff), yet these installations are rushed through to meet "deadlines"; and on commercial jobs, bonuses for the GC.

When you have employees being paid by piecework, more steps are cut to get it done faster or more done in the course of a day.

It only has to last a year....
 

Frank The Plumber

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I didn't get pictures of it, I did a lot of jobs where my bit was mechanical or hidden behind some very lovely surfaces, a lot of these jobs ended up in homes where the owners were very private people.

Technically if you can prove poor workmanship or a missing process in a system the one year deal does not apply. It can be hard to prove but many times in system type applications such as these Kerdi systems, if you skip a few critical steps or are negligent a rep may be called in and find your mistakes or cheats. You are then it for the job even after a significant time passage in some cases.
 
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ddawg16

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I've been looking at the TileReady product.

We need a 34"x60" pan....and that is a standard size they have....Costco is selling it for something like $560.

The issue my wife and I have with the fiberglass units is that you don' tile them...we personally don't like the look of a tiled shower where the floot looks different than the walls.

I guess you can guess the direction we are leaning.....but more input is great...
 

onewaydave

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Down the road from Dorothy and Toto
I didn't want a booring old rectangle. So the shower portion is round on one side and squars on the end that is an entry. No such thing made so I used that Japanese guy's counter top method (lots of others are doing it) to make a custom base.

I did over engineer it as the brick mold that the glass block sits on is 4" wide x 6" tall. The inside lip is 4" and slopes to the drain.

My architect nephew missed the estimated weight by a half ton or so. I poured the mould in the bedroom (it was still under construction also) and had to get it off the saw horses and through a 32" door into the BR.

If I were to do it again, I would use smaller rebar and put a false bottom to lighten it up. I would also put a false lip about 6" to tile onto instead bringing the water barrier down all the way. 6" overlap kinda.

I tiled 2 walls and glass blocked 2 walls. The floor is bare concrete. With some character.

Dave.
 

Frank The Plumber

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You have to read where the last one I did was 2001, I worked for a contractor.

From doing this work I have elevated lead levels.

I used all state of the art air evacuation equipment and still elevated my levels.

Personally you could keep it, I got union scale for it, lead is very heavy and it's BB busting work.

I think D Dawg should have a look at the Kerdi system or Keri Bond system. I've seen a product called a Kerilastic membrane used it's green. The base will work nice too.
 

Frank The Plumber

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Most showers here in NZ use a stainless steel tray.
Is that common over there?

Nope, we are an over all cheap society which tends to construct things for the short term rather than the long term. We do a lot of cheap temporary junk in our residential construction. Most feel that by doing it this way they are saving money. Uh huh. I applaud you guys for using something so durable for your construction.
 

snorky18

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I would only build the pan if it were odd dimension not available in a pan to purchase.

Highly recommend Kerdi based on a lot of research and my one shower under my belt so far.
 

bls2dpj

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I bought my pan from Onyx (Lowes & Menards sells them). Its got a lifetime warranty and you can choose any color you want. Drops in place and it looks good. Very well made, heavy duty (unlike the fiberglass pans). Made in the USA too (Kansas)

http://www.onyxcollection.com/

DJ
 

stout1

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Chicago area
I've been looking into this as well. I just of a company in Chicago called Creative Industries that does terrazzo shower bases made to size. I haven't checked prices yet.
 

Steevo

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On a concrete slab I'd build one. I don't trust wood floors to stay rigid enough to keep a mud floor from cracking over time.
I did mine four years ago, and it is completely crack-free.
 

shoot summ

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I bought my pan from Onyx (Lowes & Menards sells them). Its got a lifetime warranty and you can choose any color you want. Drops in place and it looks good. Very well made, heavy duty (unlike the fiberglass pans). Made in the USA too (Kansas)

http://www.onyxcollection.com/

DJ

What are the terms of the lifetime warranty? Do the pay for the removal and install of the old pan?
 

bls2dpj

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If they can't fix it while installed they will replace it. They won't pay for a an entire shower rebuild but no one will do that.

DJ
 

Sumboodie

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I'm on the other end, I would only do a fiberglass(I don't use the word quality with them) in a rental house or maybe a garage/shop. They look cheap, because they are cheap, they also feel cheap.

Just my opinion, no offense intended....
I had no idea there were other options. Apparently I've only been in "cheap" places.

Frankly don't care as long it allows me to apply soap and water to myself without making a mess.
 
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