200 amp panel with 100 amp main?

[dirttracker18]

Here's the story.

I want to upgrade to a 200 amp service but cannot afford it right now. We intend to go underground when we make the switch as we need to upgrade the lines to the house anyway. Currently it is cost prohibitive for us though.

I currently have a 100 amp fuse panel that is just out of room. We are about to start to finish the basement and thus need a new panel for the extra room.

Now the question becomes can I purchase a 200 amp panel but change the main breaker to 100 amp to remain compliant but be ready for the 200 amp service upgrade later?

Is this possible? Are you aware of a panel I can do this with?

I am also open to other ideas or thoughts.

 

[TWX]

Why don't you look for a cheap subpanel, and route from the main panel to the subpanel if all you're after is more circuit positions?

 

[Grazz256]

Another option would be to install a 100A fused disconnect before the panel, it may or may not be cheaper then changing the main breaker in the panel.
A third option would be to install a 100A breaker in the panel and back feed it. Technically there is nothing wrong with doing this (AC isn't directional...) but you should check with your local inspector to make sure they're ok with it.

 

[RangerDaleXp]

Here's the story.

I want to upgrade to a 200 amp service but cannot afford it right now. We intend to go underground when we make the switch as we need to upgrade the lines to the house anyway. Currently it is cost prohibitive for us though.

I currently have a 100 amp fuse panel that is just out of room. We are about to start to finish the basement and thus need a new panel for the extra room.

Now the question becomes can I purchase a 200 amp panel but change the main breaker to 100 amp to remain compliant but be ready for the 200 amp service upgrade later?

Is this possible? Are you aware of a panel I can do this with?

I am also open to other ideas or thoughts.

First off, what make of pannel do you have now? If it is not some High dollar old zinsco panel or some oddball one. you can remove some of the single breakers and install doubles instead....

 

[bassman]

No, can't do that. Main breaher must be fastened in place in the panal. I think you're out of luck here, I can't think of a panal that will have a holdown for a 100a br

 

[mrb]

install a big new (42 sp or whatever) 200A main breaker panel. Install a 2P 100a branch breaker with a hold down clip. Use this as your main until you do your upgrade. (my response based on usa -i dont know how canada works)

there are also main lug panels that are convertable to main breaker but that will cost more than what i described above.

 

[mrb]

here's square D info on the hold down kits
http://static.schneider-electric.us...rs/Accessories-QO-LK-PK-QO-QON/1100HO9902.pdf

 

[BigJohn20]

No, can't do that. Main breaher must be fastened in place in the panal. I think you're out of luck here, I can't think of a panal that will have a holdown for a 100a br

Knowing the guys at Eaton, I'm sure they have a 200A Cutler Hammer panel that accepts a 100A Main Breaker. They'll build or have built pretty much anything as long as you can wait. Best bet is to give their sales division a call.

 

[dirttracker18]

Current panel is a 100 amp Amalgamated FUSE panel. Not only am I out of spots but it is completeley stuffed inside. It was tight when I bought the house and adding 100 amp wire in there for the garage ( currently fused at 60 amps) pretty much filled it up inside.

 

[RangerDaleXp]

Current panel is a 100 amp Amalgamated FUSE panel. Not only am I out of spots but it is completeley stuffed inside. It was tight when I bought the house and adding 100 amp wire in there for the garage ( currently fused at 60 amps) pretty much filled it up inside.

Your out of luck. You will need the 200A upgrade.....

 

[mrb]

Knowing the guys at Eaton, I'm sure they have a 200A Cutler Hammer panel that accepts a 100A Main Breaker. They'll build or have built pretty much anything as long as you can wait. Best bet is to give their sales division a call.

this is a commodity panel being installed on a house, not switchgear for an office building. hardly warrants a call to their sales division.

 

[BigJohn20]

this is a commodity panel being installed on a house, not switchgear for an office building. hardly warrants a call to their sales division.

They have a retail/residential sales division that can help out in the OP's situation if he doesn't want to go the route you suggested. The main breaker panel + 100A hold down clip you suggested is probably his quickest, simplest, and cheapest option.

 

[mrb]

They have a retail/residential sales division that can help out in the OP's situation if he doesn't want to go the route you suggested. The main breaker panel + 100A hold down clip you suggested is probably his quickest, simplest, and cheapest option.

yeah, but i wouldnt expect a high level of service for one panel to a homeowner and considering he has to cut corners and not upgrade the service for financial reasons a $400 special order panel is out of the question.

 

[BigJohn20]

yeah, but i wouldnt expect a high level of service for one panel to a homeowner and considering he has to cut corners and not upgrade the service for financial reasons a $400 special order panel is out of the question.

 

[Charles (in GA)]

The 200 amp main breaker inside the new panel would only be protecting the panel, it doesn't care what size wire is supplying it (so long as the lugs are rated for that size). If you do not have an outside disconnect now, the wires from the meter to the panel are unprotected, and changing the panel will not make this situation any different.

The advantage to having a 100 amp main is that it will trip should you overload it and it will prevent you from pulling too much thru the unprotected service wires. It indirectly protects the wires by limiting the load that could be drawn thru them, it will not protect them from short circuits before the panel.

Probably the best course is what mrb has suggested and installed the biggest main breaker panel you can (I prefer full forty space 200 amp Siemens panels with copper bus'es) and buy that 100 amp breaker and a hold down kit and supply it thru the 100 amp. If someday you build a detached shop or garage, you will have the breaker to supply the feeder to it this way.

Charles

 

[tfi racing]

All of the panels available in Canada have a totally different 200A main breaker configuration as compared to the 100A panels,I don't think there is any 100A breaker that will physically work as a 200A main.

The best solution would be to buy your 200A panel,and use it as a subpanel for your new circuits,as well as a few of the circuits from your jam packed fuse box.Use the largest fuse slot available(hopefully at least a 60A fuse) and the corresponding sized cable to feed your new subpanel,feeding it through the 200A main won't be an issue.When the time comes to upgrade your new service,run it to the new panel and move the remainder of the circuits from the fuse box.This method won't have you trying to track down hard to find bits and pieces that will just get tossed in the future.

Everybody else has suggested some good ideas,but as always,product availability and what is commonly used in one area can be totally different only a couple of hundred miles away!

 

[jumpingryan]

Select a sub panel that would allow about 4 to 8 extra circuits...... bring some of the old circuits from the fuse panel to the sub panel if required.

To save on later cost, select a panel brand that you would like to use in the future when you upgrade the service and the panel. This way you can re-use the breakers. I always recommend when upgrading you get the biggest panel possible.... you will have the thing for the life of the house, so buy once with no regrets.

When you do your upgrade (since your house is probably older since it has a fuse panel), remember to insulate behind the panel with a piece of rigid foam (1.5 inch should do), and mount it to a piece of quality 3/4 plywood for neatness and looks.

Good luck!

R

 

[dirttracker18]

Many interesting thoughts guys thanks. Some currently above my comprehension of electrical but nothing I can't work out.

As it turns out my father is friends with a local electical inspector. I am going to have a coffee with him and pick his brain about what might be the best option (and what they will pass!).

I will present some of the options listed here for his thoughts as well.

Thanks again guys!

 

[Charles (in GA)]

All of the panels available in Canada have a totally different 200A main breaker configuration as compared to the 100A panels,I don't think there is any 100A breaker that will physically work as a 200A main.

We were not suggesting removing the 200 amp breaker and replacing it with a 100 amp. Instead we were suggesting leaving the 200 amp main breaker in the panel in place, just not connected to anything, and supplying the panel with a 100 amp double pole breaker that will plug onto the stabs of the panel, and then back feeding the panel thru this breaker. The 100 amp will act as the main for the panel, until such time as the original poster decides to upgrade his service and replace the wires from the pole to the meter can, the meter can itself and the wires from the meter to the panel, at that time he can connect to the 200 amp main and then remove the wires from the 100 amp breaker. He could re-use the 100 amp breaker as a sub feed to another panel (in a garage or shop) or remove it from the panel alltogether.

If the OP does this, he needs to be sure and tape over the 200 amp breaker and mark it unused/dead and mark the 100 amp as MAIN DISCONNECT so someone won't trip the 200 amp thinking they were turning off something. As an alternative, the 200 amp could be removed from the panel and stored until it is needed for the 200 amp upgrade, but this is overkill.

Charles

 

[RangerDaleXp]

Many interesting thoughts guys thanks. Some currently above my comprehension of electrical but nothing I can't work out.

As it turns out my father is friends with a local electical inspector. I am going to have a coffee with him and pick his brain about what might be the best option (and what they will pass!).

I will present some of the options listed here for his thoughts as well.

Thanks again guys!

Unfortunately it looks like most of the people that posted here never read your first few post. All they did was go on a rant that ended up not having anything to do with your problem even after you said that you have a fuse panel and not a breaker panel. That's why I asked the question on what you had installed now. Anyway it looks like you are doing the proper thing and having coffee with the inspector. You may find out that you will need a new drop or underground feed to supply that new 200A Panel which will need to be done buy the Power company. The panels and the breakers are pretty cheap as long as you pick the proper manufactures. Good luck on your project

 

[Norcal]

Canadian main breaker panels are different then what we use "south of the border" , the Cunukistan Electrical Code requires a separate compartment for the main & SE cables which no branch circuits may pass through that is one reason you see "sideways" mounted panels in Canada, they are allowed by the CEC, but strictly verboten per NEC rules, but back to the original subject, the main breaker is going to be a issue, perhaps a 100A disco & then feed the new panel from it & move the existing branch circuits to the new panel. BTW, panels larger then 42 circuit are more common then in the US, Canada does not have a rule limiting a panel to 42 circuits, they may become more common here since the 2008 NEC removed that rule...

 

[Grazz256]

Canadian main breaker panels are different then what we use "south of the border" , the Cunukistan Electrical Code requires a separate compartment for the main & SE cables...

I don't think this is right... I just installed a panel in my garage and its all one compartment. Also in comercial/light industrial I've seen panels from 100A 120/208 to 3200A 600V with no seperate commartment for the main incoming. You can't use a panel as a wireway, but this doesn't count for wires supplying the panel, or sourced from the panel.

Back on topic, when you buy a panel try to get one with all the breakers you need plus a bunch of spares included. Breakers are substantially cheaper when you buy them with the panel then if you buy them seperately.

 

[dirttracker18]

We were not suggesting removing the 200 amp breaker and replacing it with a 100 amp. Instead we were suggesting leaving the 200 amp main breaker in the panel in place, just not connected to anything, and supplying the panel with a 100 amp double pole breaker that will plug onto the stabs of the panel, and then back feeding the panel thru this breaker. The 100 amp will act as the main for the panel, until such time as the original poster decides to upgrade his service and replace the wires from the pole to the meter can, the meter can itself and the wires from the meter to the panel, at that time he can connect to the 200 amp main and then remove the wires from the 100 amp breaker. He could re-use the 100 amp breaker as a sub feed to another panel (in a garage or shop) or remove it from the panel alltogether.

If the OP does this, he needs to be sure and tape over the 200 amp breaker and mark it unused/dead and mark the 100 amp as MAIN DISCONNECT so someone won't trip the 200 amp thinking they were turning off something. As an alternative, the 200 amp could be removed from the panel and stored until it is needed for the 200 amp upgrade, but this is overkill.

Charles

Are there any Canadian (Ontario preferred) electricians that may be able to confirm that this suggestion will meet code here?

I like the idea and I believe I understand what you are saying (as mentioned by others as well, thanks to all!). This would certainly solve the problem adn allow me to have the 200 amp when I upgrade the lines.

I will certainly bring this option up to my inspector for his take on the idea as per our codes.

 

[mrb]

I just realized the backfed main suggestion wont fly in canada. They require the main and its wiring to be seperated from the rest of the panel and wiring.

 

[kirk.g]

Hello, Im in Ontario and upgraded my service from 60 amp to 100 amp almost exactly a year ago.I changed out the old fuse box to a 100 amp panel several yrs ago but left it 60 amp.When my insurance co. wanted 100 amp service I had to do the outside half last year.If you can do it yourself its not that expensive.In Toronto you can take down the service and and do a temporary rehook yourself. T Bay hydro should upgrade their wires to your place without charge, you need to supply the new stuff from there.You can get a survey from local T Bay hydro which will tell you how they want things.The new wiring is probably the most expensive..Do you have any pics?

 

[rwreuter]

your best solution, considering your situation is to install a sub panel. the likely hood of you exceeding 100amps is not high.

all residental homes in the US have a minimum of a 200 amp panel and only a SMALL percentage people actually come close to reaching it.

anyone who has a 200amp panel...place an amp probe on one leg, with your a/c unit running and you will be lucky to see it drawing 50amps....that is just one leg.

the majority of people have space problems, not a lack of power available.

 

[BigJohn20]

all residental homes in the US have a minimum of a 200 amp panel and only a SMALL percentage people actually come close to reaching it.

Says who?

Minimum service requirement is typically quoted as 100A based on NEC 230.79(C) in regards to the service disconnect.

Around here, it is a requirement that the meter socket be rated for 200A w/ a bypass lever, but that says nothing for the service. Hell I just installed a 150A this weekend.

 

[rwreuter]

Says who?

Minimum service requirement is typically quoted as 100A based on NEC 230.79(C) in regards to the service disconnect.

Around here, it is a requirement that the meter socket be rated for 200A w/ a bypass lever, but that says nothing for the service. Hell I just installed a 150A this weekend.

i would love to see a picture of that 150a.....someone please show me a picture of a NEW construction home or one done in the last 10 years with anything less than 200amp service. trailers and mobile homes don't count.

multi families are also exempt from this as the rules are different.

 

[BigJohn20]

i would love to see a picture of that 150a.....someone please show me a picture of a NEW construction home or one done in the last 10 years with anything less than 200amp service. trailers and mobile homes don't count.

multi families are also exempt from this as the rules are different.

You're changing your story here. First it's all homes in the US have 200A services, now it's new construction.

A service will depend completely on the load calculation worked out. For example, in areas with natural gas, you wouldn't need a 200A service.

 

[rwreuter]

ok BigJohn.........

the NEC does state that....but if you have a license and you have or do wire for a living you know multifamily is different.

go ahead and wire a house with a 100 amp panel......how many breaker spaces are in it....unless you are wiring something the size of a shed you WILL NOT have enough spaces. even with most 200 amp services breaker spaces are limited, unless you purchase a larger panel. this is especially true with the AFCI rules.

i am not going to argue with you about this....i know what i am talking about and anyone that has bought a single family residence in the last 15-20 (my actual experience) years knows (if they look at a panel) it is a 200amp service. and an electrician (who actually does this for a living) knows what i am talking about.

there may be unique situations that require more or some that require less, very few.


anyways...his cheapest option is to get a sub panel......

 

[rwreuter]

another thing.....unless you are doing a multifamily or an extremely large house load calculations are NOT accomplished by residential electrical contractors. Commerical, yes they are done because plan reviews are required.

 

[BigJohn20]

ok BigJohn.........

the NEC does state that....but if you have a license and you have or do wire for a living you know multifamily is different.

go ahead and wire a house with a 100 amp panel......how many breaker spaces are in it....unless you are wiring something the size of a shed you WILL NOT have enough spaces. even with most 200 amp services breaker spaces are limited, unless you purchase a larger panel. this is especially true with the AFCI rules.

i am not going to argue with you about this....i know what i am talking about and anyone that has bought a single family residence in the last 15-20 (my actual experience) years knows (if they look at a panel) it is a 200amp service. and an electrician (who actually does this for a living) knows what i am talking about.

there may be unique situations that require more or some that require less, very few.


anyways...his cheapest option is to get a sub panel......

You put in what the customer wants at the price they're willing to pay, period. You always try to sell them a 200A QO or CH setup with RMC and ATS w/ generator and yadda yadda yadda, but that doesn't always fly.

There are a number of things that are going to factor into the decision of what is getting installed. Price, load calculation, space requirements, etc.

If a customer only has the money to go from a Zinsco or FPE to a 100A Murray or Eaton BR, then that's what they're getting.

Around here, you do NOT need to put in AFCI breakers when doing a service upgrade.

Also, the rating of a panel does not completely dictate the spaces in a panel. 100A 30/30 panels are readily available at your local supply house.

 

[rwreuter]

i would LOVE to have you as a competitor..........

 

[Norcal]

all residental homes in the US have a minimum of a 200 amp panel and only a SMALL percentage people actually come close to reaching it.

Not true at all, tract homes are built as cheap as they can get away with & a 100A service is minimum, that is what they get.

Here is a 1 year ago hack job:

 

[mrb]

Not true at all, tract homes are built as cheap as they can get away with & a 100A service is minimum, that is what they get.

on tract homes I tend to see 100A service on <2000sq/ft and 1 HVAC, and 200A service on <2000sq/ft and 2 HVAC

100A services are VERY common. besides the slightly lower cost for the panel and feeder where applicable, the utility install charges are usually quite a bit lower.

 

[trackwelder]

We were not suggesting removing the 200 amp breaker and replacing it with a 100 amp. Instead we were suggesting leaving the 200 amp main breaker in the panel in place, just not connected to anything, and supplying the panel with a 100 amp double pole breaker that will plug onto the stabs of the panel, and then back feeding the panel thru this breaker. The 100 amp will act as the main for the panel, until such time as the original poster decides to upgrade his service and replace the wires from the pole to the meter can, the meter can itself and the wires from the meter to the panel, at that time he can connect to the 200 amp main and then remove the wires from the 100 amp breaker. He could re-use the 100 amp breaker as a sub feed to another panel (in a garage or shop) or remove it from the panel alltogether.

If the OP does this, he needs to be sure and tape over the 200 amp breaker and mark it unused/dead and mark the 100 amp as MAIN DISCONNECT so someone won't trip the 200 amp thinking they were turning off something. As an alternative, the 200 amp could be removed from the panel and stored until it is needed for the 200 amp upgrade, but this is overkill.

Charles

This is exactly what my buddy just did at my house. We are awaiting the power company to come and remove the existing 100 amp service and replace it with a 200 amp service. Then the 100 amp breaker will feed my garage in the future. He has over 50 years experience in the trade.

 

[TWX]

I may have found what you're looking for...

It's a panel that's capable of being a main or a sub, and there's a knockout for when it's used as a main for the main switch. That would mean that the switch is modular, which might also mean that there are different main switches available.

It's a Square-D, looked decent. It was in one of the sites that I work in.

 

[mrb]

I may have found what you're looking for...

It's a panel that's capable of being a main or a sub, and there's a knockout for when it's used as a main for the main switch. That would mean that the switch is modular, which might also mean that there are different main switches available.

It's a Square-D, looked decent. It was in one of the sites that I work in.

those are pretty common, theyre called main lug convertable. The downside is the panel and breaker costs more than buying one that comes with the main, or buying a MLO panel and using a backfed main. The standard commodity items are alot cheaper than the other catalog numbers.

 

[dirttracker18]

Hello, Im in Ontario and upgraded my service from 60 amp to 100 amp almost exactly a year ago.I changed out the old fuse box to a 100 amp panel several yrs ago but left it 60 amp.When my insurance co. wanted 100 amp service I had to do the outside half last year.If you can do it yourself its not that expensive.In Toronto you can take down the service and and do a temporary rehook yourself. T Bay hydro should upgrade their wires to your place without charge, you need to supply the new stuff from there.You can get a survey from local T Bay hydro which will tell you how they want things.The new wiring is probably the most expensive..Do you have any pics?

I am outside of the city so I am not with T Bay Hydro. I am with Hydro One/Ontario Hydro. They will not cover the upgrade for the wires although the price seems reasonable all things considered. It is going to be a bit of a complex matter as the pole distance no longer meets code so I have to go all the way back to the road install a new pole on my side of the road (on my property) and then I will go underground from there ( somewhere around 250 feet IIRC ).

I have not had a chance to sit down with the inspector yet but I am sure he will explore all options with me. Looking like I may be SOL though if the other poster is right that the suggestion does not meet Ontario code.

 

[Jim Johnstone]

Is there a separate disconnect before your fuse box? My house was switched over to a breaker panel from fuses before I bought it, and the person who did the switch left the old fused disconnect in place.

I've got a 200 amp 40/80 space panel now, that I am going to put in place of the 100 amp panel, but use the fused disconnect to hold it at 100 amps, just to free up space in the jam packed 100 amp panel, then in the spring, I'm going to replace the service entrance, meter socket etc and bring it all up to current code, and actually get 200 amps service.