Dual 80 Destruction

[Seanbev24]

Did it HAVE to be a flex head? Although there was limited bolt access, its not like there's anything in the way below a lower control arm to prevent use of a fixed head ratchet.

Snap-On, Matco, HF, it doesn't matter, control arm bolts are a lot for a 3/8" flex head. You would probably be better off putting a pipe on an F80. I've beat the hell out of my FLF80 with no issues, but won't be surprised if the joint breaks.

 

[briggsguy17]

I agree, wrong tool for job. 19mm socket is too big for 3/8" drive on a high torque fastener.

 

[bgott]

That handle had a defect in it. It happens. I got tired of one of my Snappy flex head 3/8" ratchet's head flopping around so I decided to get a new one. I clamped the head of the ratchet into my vise and hung a four foot pipe on the handle. Then I laid into the pipe with my 280 pounds and I couldn't break the handle or the pin. I was laying into it pretty good, any more and I was afraid of landing on something hard when it let go. I gave up and pulled the thing apart and figured out how to tighten it up.

 

[braxx]

Why do people heat the nuts up? Thermal expansion would make their grip tighter....

No it doesn't. I proved it by measuring ratational resistance of a 1" nut on a stud with and without the nut near red hot. When hot the nut required less torque to rotate.
The nut expands. There is a quantity called alpha that is the coefficient of linear expansion for a given material. In steel, alpha is about 1.24x10-5 per degree centigrade. The theory is that if you add heat to a material, the atoms move around more vigorously. This has the effect of increasing the distance between all atoms, hence the material expands. Obviously, this makes the material expand in all dimensions, but the increasing distance between atoms is the key here.

In a hex nut the metal expands in all directions, but interestingly, at the inside diameter, the expansion is away from the center. The reason for this is for the material to expand inward, it would have to decrease the space between atoms, which would violate the notion that the atomic distances must increase. Hence, the inside diameter gets bigger and the stubborn thing comes loose.

 

[I can fix anything]

Maybe, maybe not. There is not as much leverage on the joint of a breaker bar compared to a ratchet. Usually, when a breaker bar fails, it is the square drive that snaps off.

I have broke 2 snap on 1/2" breakers in the past year, and they both broke at the joint.

 

[snapmom]

In a hex nut the metal expands in all directions, but interestingly, at the inside diameter, the expansion is away from the center. The reason for this is for the material to expand inward, it would have to decrease the space between atoms, which would violate the notion that the atomic distances must increase. Hence, the inside diameter gets bigger and the stubborn thing comes loose.[/QUOTE]

I can see it, all those little atoms expanding, but they cannot get closer, they have to get away from each other. Its like a group of people with b.o. and they have to get away from each other, they ain't going to go into each other, so everyone goes out.

 

[TheGrooveking]

I agree, wrong tool for job. 19mm socket is too big for 3/8" drive on a high torque fastener.

+1, a great reference is the Wright Tool drive chart, funny enough at 14mm it stops recommending 3/8" drive, yet they don't start advising 1/2" drive until 13/16", right above 20mm.

TheGrooveking

 

[MrMark]

No it doesn't. I proved it by measuring ratational resistance of a 1" nut on a stud with and without the nut near red hot. When hot the nut required less torque to rotate.
The nut expands. There is a quantity called alpha that is the coefficient of linear expansion for a given material. In steel, alpha is about 1.24x10-5 per degree centigrade. The theory is that if you add heat to a material, the atoms move around more vigorously. This has the effect of increasing the distance between all atoms, hence the material expands. Obviously, this makes the material expand in all dimensions, but the increasing distance between atoms is the key here.

In a hex nut the metal expands in all directions, but interestingly, at the inside diameter, the expansion is away from the center. The reason for this is for the material to expand inward, it would have to decrease the space between atoms, which would violate the notion that the atomic distances must increase. Hence, the inside diameter gets bigger and the stubborn thing comes loose.

What about the bolt? It expands too.

I think the theory is that the nut expands slightly more than the bolt.

 

[GoBlue]

the nut is closer to the torch thus gets hotter?

 

[amolaver]

that's no torch - it heats through induction http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Induction_heating

i highly doubt the nut expands outward (perpendicular to the long axis of the bolt) along its inner diameter. i'd love to see an actual physicists take on that. more likely to me, the heat breaks down whatever chemical reaction has caused the fasteners to seize together (loctite/corrosion), and/or may cause the bolt to lengthen, reducing strain on the nut as it moves away from the face bearing the clamp load.

regardless of why, it usually works and is a hell of a tool (inductor) to have 'in the bag'. sometimes, you can't use a 'hot wrench' for fear of catching something on fire (think rubber brake lines or wires running to an abs tone ring). the inductor provides very intense but very localized heating.

ahm

 

[csargents1546]

I when I was on the site for the mini inductor, the illustrations said that the bolt and nut had the red superimposed on them. That being said that thing works like a charm. Use it at least once a week pulling cabs at work.

 

[markw365]

Maybe, maybe not. There is not as much leverage on the joint of a breaker bar compared to a ratchet. Usually, when a breaker bar fails, it is the square drive that snaps off.

I've worried about this on my 24" snap-on. That thing has taken some abuse, latest was the 75ft lbs + 90 degrees on a duratec 2.3 crank bolt. I thought the breaker bar was going to break but it didn't. Dad used to use a cheater bar and bounce on that thing to break loose VW axle nuts in the rust belt (iowa), now I'm beating on it and it's good to go.

Mark

 

[DrkMtnDew]

i don't know much about the theory of heating nuts and bolts, but from a practical standpoint it is essential. if anyone wants to try it out first hand find a 30+ year old pickup and take off the big u-bolts that hold on the leaf springs. try it without heat and with heat. then you make the call.

as far as the broken ratchet, a 1/2'' breaker bar is smaller than a 3/8'' ratchet, so clearance should not have been the issue. but it doesn't matter now. what's done is done. moving on...

 

[AZ_Catskinner]

that's no torch - it heats through induction http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Induction_heating

i highly doubt the nut expands outward (perpendicular to the long axis of the bolt) along its inner diameter. i'd love to see an actual physicists take on that. more likely to me, the heat breaks down whatever chemical reaction has caused the fasteners to seize together (loctite/corrosion), and/or may cause the bolt to lengthen, reducing strain on the nut as it moves away from the face bearing the clamp load.

regardless of why, it usually works and is a hell of a tool (inductor) to have 'in the bag'. sometimes, you can't use a 'hot wrench' for fear of catching something on fire (think rubber brake lines or wires running to an abs tone ring). the inductor provides very intense but very localized heating.

ahm

How about a millwright's take on it? Anything with a circular opening (nut, bearing, sleeve, washer) WILL expand the opening when heated. That's why we have bearing heaters. It's also why we heat lock sleeves in order to remove them from shafts. It doesn't really require too much heat either. You can make an interference fit bearing slide right onto a shaft at 200F.

 

[kythri]

+1, a great reference is the Wright Tool drive chart, funny enough at 14mm it stops recommending 3/8" drive, yet they don't start advising 1/2" drive until 13/16", right above 20mm.

TheGrooveking

Where do I get one of these awesome-sounding charts? I want.

 

[DrkMtnDew]

Where do I get one of these awesome-sounding charts? I want.

use search to find a thread called 'free stuff'. it is in the first post.

 

[Hiball]

I have broke 2 snap on 1/2" breakers in the past year, and they both broke at the joint.

You must be doing it wrong..

 

[blacK20]

I have put my craftsman breaker bar through ridiculous abuse and it hasn't broken. Can't say the same for my snappy. I don't know what it is.

 

[shampoop]

I agree, wrong tool for job. 19mm socket is too big for 3/8" drive on a high torque fastener.

+1 I have the locking version of that ratchet. Normal 19mm stuff is fine, but if it's really stuck, that's too much for a ratchet like that. Maybe with the non-flex version.

 

[BloodySinner]

That Chinese steel just doesn't hold up like the older USA made wrenches.

Even since Snappy when to China for the dual 80 production, the quality have taken a dive.

Is this true? Can anyone confirm? Holy ****...

 

[blarf]

Is this true? Can anyone confirm? Holy ****...

You must be new here...

 

[FlatBlackBlaze]

I'm not sure if troll or really that stupid..

 

[kythri]

use search to find a thread called 'free stuff'. it is in the first post.

Thanks!

 

[Jolomite]

No it doesn't. I proved it by measuring ratational resistance of a 1" nut on a stud with and without the nut near red hot. When hot the nut required less torque to rotate.
The nut expands. There is a quantity called alpha that is the coefficient of linear expansion for a given material. In steel, alpha is about 1.24x10-5 per degree centigrade. The theory is that if you add heat to a material, the atoms move around more vigorously. This has the effect of increasing the distance between all atoms, hence the material expands. Obviously, this makes the material expand in all dimensions, but the increasing distance between atoms is the key here.

In a hex nut the metal expands in all directions, but interestingly, at the inside diameter, the expansion is away from the center. The reason for this is for the material to expand inward, it would have to decrease the space between atoms, which would violate the notion that the atomic distances must increase. Hence, the inside diameter gets bigger and the stubborn thing comes loose.

Wow! Neat explanation. Yer blowin' my mind here.

 

[I can fix anything]

You must be doing it wrong..

Definately, I should have used my duralast

Wait, I did after the Snappers broke

 

[Hiball]

Definately, I should have used my duralast

Wait, I did after the Snappers broke

Your not fooling me man, I see all the Snappy stuff you buy here in the Classifieds..

Remember, Righty Tighty and Lefty Loosey.. LOL

 

[I can fix anything]

Your not fooling me man, I see all the Snappy stuff you buy here in the Classifieds..

Remember, Righty Tighty and Lefty Loosey.. LOL

****, its my dexlesia breakin stuff

 

[05CarbonDRZ]

Is this true? Can anyone confirm? Holy ****...

Oh no......Why does EVERY thread that even mentions Snap-On turn into a flame fest of where dual 80's are made?

 

[I can fix anything]

Oh no......Why does EVERY thread that even mentions Snap-On turn into a flame fest of where dual 80's are made?

Because people are stupid. I finally have it all answered. The little green alien that lives in my barn says they are made on the planet Moronica.

 

[Wakefield]

Wow! Neat explanation. Yer blowin' my mind here.

The material nearest the hole tries to expand inward but there is more material near the outer edge trying to expand outward and it wins,pulling the hole bigger. !?

I think there were some threads in the past describing how to use heat and the candle melt trick on stuck stuff. Kroil and stuff overnight?
Even after the hot nut cools down enough to not look red I would guess that it is a little less tight than before the treatment? Don't get it hot enough to turn orange?
Better to put a gross old impact socket on a red hot nut than a nice new shiny one? heat treatment ruined?
I think rust sometimes has moisture in it and the heat may drive out the water,changing the rust to make it shrink?

 

[Interex]

Should have gone to Harbor Freight.

 

[Sterff]

Time for a Matco ratchet.

 

[Hiball]

should have gone to harbor freight.

 

[Interex]

 

[Hiball]

Restassured the Majority of the Membership is tired of the Trollish comments, What does HF have to do with this Thread? Did the OP ask for opinions on there Tools?

Ya.. Didnt think so.

 

[Interex]

Restassured the Majority of the Membership is tired of the Trollish comments, What does HF have to do with this Thread? Did the OP ask for opinions on there Tools?

Ya.. Didnt think so.

Oh come on, Hiball. This thread was just asking for it.

90% of this thread is posts that don't have anything to do with the OPs original post.

 

[Hiball]

Oh come on, Hiball. This thread was just asking for it.

90% of this thread is posts that don't have anything to do with the OPs original post.

Agreed.. but bringing HF into a Snap on Thread or Vise Versa does nothing but get people banned and cause extra work for the Admins. Plain and Simple Its Not worth it and in the 2 1/2 years ive been here ive seen nothing good come from it.

 

[Interex]

Point taken, I'll keep out.

 

[bigdummy30]

I'm just impressed that the handle broke BEFORE the 80 teeth stripped. IMO, that says alot for the strength and design of the dual 80's.

All tools will fail at some point. It WILL happen. But in the case, SOLID hardened steel broke before the moving parts of a fine tooth ratchet did.

That alone speaks for it's self.

in the offroad world the more splines something has the stronger it is.....with that logic 80 tooth ratchets are way stronger than a 36 tooth ratchet...more surface area engaged at one time..

 

[Pro-Painter]

in the offroad world the more splines something has the stronger it is.....with that logic 80 tooth ratchets are way stronger than a 36 tooth ratchet...more surface area engaged at one time..

That depends on the contact area. For example, The splines of axle shaft (which I assume is what your talking about) has a 100% contact area with the drive gears (no idea what the real name of the two small gears the axle slides into are called).
A ratchet on the other hand only has a small contact area with the pawl. So the real strength would be the number of teeth, and the size of the contact area.