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Can I pour my own pad?

Cheap5.0

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I know I can...but if i have never done cement work before, is it possible to do it right?

I have two people helping out, both have done that kind of work before and they feel confident about their skills. I have a neighbor down the road with a cat front end loader, i can hire him for a little money to get the prep work done.

So i have the means, but is it a good idea?
 
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billspit

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For a storage building, sure. For garage, probably being penny wise and pound foolish.
 

toxicz28

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That depends on how big is the slab? The bigger it is, the more men you'll need. As an example, a buddy put up a 45x60 steel building in his yard, concrete crew was 8 men.
 

bczygan

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Size is a critical factor. So is weather. The actual experience level of your guys is very important. Did they do it for a living? How long? What was their job? Did they run the crew or just do grunt work? Were they finishers? Do they have the experience, knowledge and judgment to do the complete job? Do they have the skills to teach you and other newbies what to do so you all become a cohesive crew for the pour?
Prep work can be done over time and fixed until perfect. Flatwork gets done right now when the truck arrives. No second chances.
 

buzz4041

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If you have someone that is experienced then yes you can do it as they will be in charge. You will be just another grunt on the crew to shovel and spread out the concrete. The other guy's will do the floating and finish work. Like toxic said you will need a few men to do it and it sure helps for them to have done it before.
 
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Cheap5.0

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Thank you guys.

The pad will be 30x40 4" with metal mesh.

I will run down my list of people, i believe only one has done it for a living and that he was a grunt. I should have around 3 labor, and 4 people who have experience (varying levels).

Ill do some Q&A with them and try to get a better feel for what they feel comfortable doing.

It will be laid sometime in Decemeber of this year, which around here is usually mid twenties F. and low humidity.
 

tatra

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a diy winter pour without pros?..........check up on spalling, frozen concrete.....my dad had a friend who did concrete as a hobby type thing and really it was a piss poor job imho........years later with a broom finish and cracked , heaving floor, that was done in the summer, i would look at paying for the job to be done right...........again, a diy winter pour?............ what are you thinking?............
 

stingry

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Thank you guys.

The pad will be 30x40 4" with metal mesh.

I will run down my list of people, i believe only one has done it for a living and that he was a grunt. I should have around 3 labor, and 4 people who have experience (varying levels).

Ill do some Q&A with them and try to get a better feel for what they feel comfortable doing.

It will be laid sometime in Decemeber of this year, which around here is usually mid twenties F. and low humidity.

I forsee a major "train wreck" happening here!!! For a pour this big in the winter you will need a lot of specialized equipment and the expertese to operate them, ie, vibrating power screed, power trowels and insulating blankets. I am all for doing things yourself but in this case I would hire it done. As said above, with concrete you only get ONE chance.


Cheers
Steve
 

70redbee

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Don't do it. All is against you to get a good pour and finish. Once the truck is there, you are committed to pour.
 

Will67

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14.5 yards in middle of winter with 3 people running wheel barrows and 4guys who haven't worked together on a pour.....what could go wrong?

I say go for it, it will be an experience you will never forget!
 

Zeke

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A great finisher is like someone who can bake an angel food cake made from scratch with no recipe any day in any weather at any altitude and have it taste perfect.

Both of these people are to be admired. One is essential.
 
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Cheap5.0

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After reading the comments, i chuckled a bit. Seriously i did.

I guess my next question is does $3/sq ft sound reasonable?

I have gotten bids from 3 different people, all of them included wire mesh and the same strength cement (cant remember the psi right now)...so the bids were pretty much apples to apples aside from each crews individual experience.
 

Falcon67

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After reading the comments, i chuckled a bit. Seriously i did.

I guess my next question is does $3/sq ft sound reasonable?

I have gotten bids from 3 different people, all of them included wire mesh and the same strength cement (cant remember the psi right now)...so the bids were pretty much apples to apples aside from each crews individual experience.

Not around here - $4.50~5.50 sq/ft. Requirements here are 3/8 bar 18" OC with two 1/2" bars in the footer. Footer can be 12x12 or so and be fine.

Where you are, I think your footers are going to be much more extensive since you have a frost line. I read 42" for most of Michigan - that's a lot of backhoe work plus forms. you should be buying around 3500 psi mix. Make damn sure you know what you are getting for the quoted price. Details very important, down to who buys and sets the anchor bolts.
 
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bczygan

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First thing is to reschedule. Unless you already have all your excavation, grading, fill and all other prep work done, you are really pushing the weather. No way I would do it. Prep work is very important. Consider drainage, existing soil composition, materials to be removed, materials to be brought in etc etc.
Plus I would think about insulation, in floor heat, any underground work like electrical or plumbing or pads for a future lift or other equipment.
Depending on use you might want a thicker slab and reinforcing steel bars, not just wire mesh. Have you decided if you want the slab flat or sloped or a combination?
All in all it seems like the planning hasn't been completely done and it's too late to make careful selections and decisions for this fall/winter.A slab takes 30 days of good weather to properly set up. Otherwise you need to monkey with the formula and take lots of precautions to make everything go right. I would much rather do the job in optimum conditions with a crew I trusted with a history of great results. This is an art. I have experience with doing a slab in winter conditions. It had to be jack hammered out. The whole surface spalled off. Take advantage of the experience here on the group and their good advice.
 

gabeancounter

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Here is the way I see it:
18 yards of concrete @ $100 a yard $1800
2 rolls wire @ $125 a roll $250
2 rolls of plastic (vapor) @$70 rolll $140
form boards $100
Materials $2300

Turn key $3ft $3600? So are your friends working for free? bring their own lunch drinks etc? You own a bull float, screed board, transit, floats, edger? Ummmm. I would pour now and not wait until December or wait until spring.

I always buy materials on my account and pay around $35-40 yard for prep and finishing. Good luck.
 

c_mccann

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No. The key to being a man is to recognize when you are out of your element, and concrete work is one of those things that takes the right tools to do properly. And, concrete work is cheap to get done by comparision. What is your co-pay at the Chiropractor? The foundation is the cornerstone of a building, get it right and the rest is going to go smoothly.
 

Trey T

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in a professional contract, contractors are not allow to make money on material but they're allow to charge labor and services. The material they're charging you should be equal or less to retail.
 
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bczygan

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I just talked to a concrete ready mix company here in SE MI near where you are in the thumb. All concrete delivered past Nov 1 is at your risk. Yes they deliver into Jan sometimes but the only people pouring then are pros doing mostly footings and foundations who know how to protect it. The ideal time is late spring after the moisture is out of the ground but before it gets too hot. Say around memorial day. Plants don't open til April and there are frost laws which govern when the heavy trucks can use the roads.
Are you doing a wood pole barn type construction or a metal building? What footings? What use for the building? Will it be partially or fully heated for winter use?
 

Stuart in MN

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Where you are, I think your footers are going to be much more extensive since you have a frost line. I read 42" for most of Michigan - that's a lot of backhoe work plus forms.

The original poster didn't mention it, but he may be planning on a thickened slab without frost footers - they are often used in the north (my garage was built that way.)
 

DoyleDee

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I had mine done.. 30x36 and four guys did the work. I used 14 yards of cement and it cost me $1212.00 with tax. I did all my prep work- sand-wire mesh (all tied together and overlapped) and paid for labor- which was $900. I had a guy that lives behind me do the job (he was actuall the fifth person-but he just watched)- he works for a concrete company, but this was on the side..for me at a much reduced cost.
I would not do that slab in those temps....and withought experienced workers--as in all are still doing concrete work.

Oh, and don't cheap out now....you might regret it later. I just happened to know the guy (he's lived behind us for over ten years)..
 
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Cheap5.0

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Not around here - $4.50~5.50 sq/ft. Requirements here are 3/8 bar 18" OC with two 1/2" bars in the footer. Footer can be 12x12 or so and be fine.

Where you are, I think your footers are going to be much more extensive since you have a frost line. I read 42" for most of Michigan - that's a lot of backhoe work plus forms. you should be buying around 3500 psi mix. Make damn sure you know what you are getting for the quoted price. Details very important, down to who buys and sets the anchor bolts.

I have made this mistake twice on here. I forget to mention very important details. This will be just a floating slab, i do not need footers since i am doing post frame.

Also for my area of michigan, code requires 52" just an fyi for anyone reading this.

I thank you (and everyone) for being blunt, i like it.

First thing is to reschedule. Unless you already have all your excavation, grading, fill and all other prep work done, you are really pushing the weather. No way I would do it. Prep work is very important. Consider drainage, existing soil composition, materials to be removed, materials to be brought in etc etc.
Plus I would think about insulation, in floor heat, any underground work like electrical or plumbing or pads for a future lift or other equipment.
Depending on use you might want a thicker slab and reinforcing steel bars, not just wire mesh. Have you decided if you want the slab flat or sloped or a combination?
All in all it seems like the planning hasn't been completely done and it's too late to make careful selections and decisions for this fall/winter.A slab takes 30 days of good weather to properly set up. Otherwise you need to monkey with the formula and take lots of precautions to make everything go right. I would much rather do the job in optimum conditions with a crew I trusted with a history of great results. This is an art. I have experience with doing a slab in winter conditions. It had to be jack hammered out. The whole surface spalled off. Take advantage of the experience here on the group and their good advice.

I was hoping to get the slab in asap because i wanted to take the winter to finish out the inside, then move all my stuff in the later winter/early spring.

But i trust what you guys are telling me, i can wait to get it done right. I asked one of the contractors about waiting, and he said cement will be going up in price Jan 1 and that it wont be a little bit. I think he was trying to convince me to do it now....

Here is the way I see it:
18 yards of concrete @ $100 a yard $1800
2 rolls wire @ $125 a roll $250
2 rolls of plastic (vapor) @$70 rolll $140
form boards $100
Materials $2300

Turn key $3ft $3600? So are your friends working for free? bring their own lunch drinks etc? You own a bull float, screed board, transit, floats, edger? Ummmm. I would pour now and not wait until December or wait until spring.

I always buy materials on my account and pay around $35-40 yard for prep and finishing. Good luck.

Yes turn key $3/ft. I figured 15 yds @ $98/yard since we only have 3 places to purchase from around here, and they all have the same price.

Good point on the tools, i have none of them and doubt my friends do either.

The three contractors i spoke with said the same thing:

For $3/ft i get a truck load or two of sand to level/setup, concrete, mesh, and professional work.
 
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Cheap5.0

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I just talked to a concrete ready mix company here in SE MI near where you are in the thumb. All concrete delivered past Nov 1 is at your risk. Yes they deliver into Jan sometimes but the only people pouring then are pros doing mostly footings and foundations who know how to protect it. The ideal time is late spring after the moisture is out of the ground but before it gets too hot. Say around memorial day. Plants don't open til April and there are frost laws which govern when the heavy trucks can use the roads.
Are you doing a wood pole barn type construction or a metal building? What footings? What use for the building? Will it be partially or fully heated for winter use?

Yeah, they didnt tell me that....

Wood pole barn, no footings, buidling is 50/50 storage/work on my cars/metal work. It will be heated part time (when i am in it).

The original poster didn't mention it, but he may be planning on a thickened slab without frost footers - they are often used in the north (my garage was built that way.)

I think thats what i am doing, but what is a "thickened" slab?

I had mine done.. 30x36 and four guys did the work. I used 14 yards of cement and it cost me $1212.00 with tax. I did all my prep work- sand-wire mesh (all tied together and overlapped) and paid for labor- which was $900. I had a guy that lives behind me do the job (he was actuall the fifth person-but he just watched)- he works for a concrete company, but this was on the side..for me at a much reduced cost.
I would not do that slab in those temps....and withought experienced workers--as in all are still doing concrete work.

Oh, and don't cheap out now....you might regret it later. I just happened to know the guy (he's lived behind us for over ten years)..

You got a great deal, and have a nice neighbor from what i gather now.

So may 1 or so is around the time i should push this back?
 

Falcon67

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More info FWIW - Mine came in at $4.25 sq/ft. I priced out the material, lumber, etc for the forms and steel and it was near $1200. I budgeted $4500 and got a quote for $4080 (24x40). That was an easy call right there. They handled it decently. It's not perfect but it was under prevailing rates and I can live with the details LOL. Paying for let me worry about the other stuff. Next door paid $4.50 for a driveway pour, which is almost no prep work here. Scoop a little dirt, 4" of forms, wire mesh and done.
 
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Cheap5.0

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More info FWIW - Mine came in at $4.25 sq/ft. I priced out the material, lumber, etc for the forms and steel and it was near $1200. I budgeted $4500 and got a quote for $4080 (24x40). That was an easy call right there. They handled it decently. It's not prefect but it was under prevailing rates and I can live with the details LOL. Paying for let me worry about the other stuff. Next door paid $4.50 for a driveway pour, which is almost no prep work here. Scoop a little dirt, 4" of forms, wire mesh and done.

I beleive the $3 a foot standard around here is a product of all the out of work labor. Everyone is clawing tooth and nail for work, so prices have come down on ALL the construction work i have contracted out.

The whole reason for building this barn is to knock down my current garage that is right next to my house. The garage sits in the ONLY spot we can add onto, or else it would stay.

The best situation would be to sell/walk away from this house and buy one of the many forclosures around here that are still in great shape...but we are upside down on this mortgage, and i dont feel right walking away from the loan (filing bankruptcy).

At any rate, we are getting a 28'x30' addition on the house built (roughed in, which means everything up to sub floor then they leave the rest for us) for around $30/ft.

My dad was telling me when he added on to his shop, it was around $60-70/ft for what was basically roughed in. But that was 10 years ago, when things in Detroit were a little different.
 

DoyleDee

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I'd say you will be fine doing prep work now, but you might have to touch it up before you get it poured (I wouldn't add sand or mesh now though). I had mine poured around May-June---- just before it got real hot. I would be worried doing it in the winter (moisture freezes--and it will "push" dirt or concrete--as well as your concrete has water in it). I understand wanting to get it done... it seemed as mine would never be since I was building it and not having it built.
 

Falcon67

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I think you are right that conditions are driving those prices. New construction here -depending on where and who - is $90~120 sq/ft or so. I busting it DIY on my shop and will do very well to keep it under $14 sq/ft.
 
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Cheap5.0

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I'd say you will be fine doing prep work now, but you might have to touch it up before you get it poured (I wouldn't add sand or mesh now though). I had mine poured around May-June---- just before it got real hot. I would be worried doing it in the winter (moisture freezes--and it will "push" dirt or concrete--as well as your concrete has water in it). I understand wanting to get it done... it seemed as mine would never be since I was building it and not having it built.

Thanks, that is something my neighbor and I can do then.

What about rebar vs. wire mesh?

I think you are right that conditions are driving those prices. New construction here -depending on where and who - is $90~120 sq/ft or so. I busting it DIY on my shop and will do very well to keep it under $14 sq/ft.

I believe it. A supplier of ours in Florida is paying through the nose for a new building in Coral Gables. But thats the price of building in a place where you have work to be done lol.
 

bczygan

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Would i be ok doing the prep work over this winter? Digging out the earth in the pole barn, bringing in sand to level, etc...?

Absolutely! Do it as soon as possible and then cover it with Visqueen to protect from snow/moisture. Remove all organic material and topsoil. Place fill in maximum 8" lifts (Layers) and compact each layer. Build pad higher than surrounding grade by at least 4" minimum. Slope surrounding grade down and away from building. With depth of slab on top this will provide for positive drainage and no flooding. I know of an airport where the pole barn hangars weren't built up enough and they flood in a big rain.

A thickened edge is where the slab gets thicker along the edge, say 12" deep and wide, with a steel bar in it.
 
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Cheap5.0

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Absolutely! Do it as soon as possible and then cover it with Visqueen to protect from snow/moisture. Remove all organic material and topsoil. Place fill in maximum 8" lifts (Layers) and compact each layer. Build pad higher than surrounding grade by at least 4" minimum. Slope surrounding grade down and away from building. With depth of slab on top this will provide for positive drainage and no flooding. I know of an airport where the pole barn hangars weren't built up enough and they flood in a big rain.

A thickened edge is where the slab gets thicker along the edge, say 12" deep and wide, with a steel bar in it.

Awesome, thanks. Are you talking about willow run airport?

Do some people call a thickened slab a rat wall, or are those different?

What advantage does a thickened slab have over what i am planning on (4" throughout)?
 

Sureshot

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Are you doing this inside the building? My pole building was up a year before I put in the floor. I am glad I waited because I got it planned better and put in threaded collars, a sump, and found a single post lift. All are in the slab.

If the building is up I wouldn't hesitate to do the job in the winter. Keep the place heated and don't let the frost get in as it takes alot to get it out and dried up. The 20's is hardly cold weather. Research farther north and find out how they do it.
 
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Cheap5.0

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Are you doing this inside the building? My pole building was up a year before I put in the floor. I am glad I waited because I got it planned better and put in threaded collars, a sump, and found a single post lift. All are in the slab.

If the building is up I wouldn't hesitate to do the job in the winter. Keep the place heated and don't let the frost get in as it takes alot to get it out and dried up. The 20's is hardly cold weather. Research farther north and find out how they do it.

I have planned on making the cement thicker in a spot in anticipation of a lift somewhere down the road. It wont add much cost now, so thats a no brainer.

Yes, this cement work would be done inside the building. But right now i do not have a heater lined up, so at best i would use salimander heaters to heat the thing for how long....a month? I will read into how you canadians do cement work :D
 

JOAT

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I labor for a concrete company, a few good friends also. I would say if you wanna start prepping get that dirt up sooner than later if u really wanna do something over the winter. Cold ground ***** to dig in. After that maybe grade it at the most. Leave the rest til spring. Or get the whole thing done within the next few month. Were pouring about 15 yds over the weekend here in Chicago. Good luck. And as other guys have said you really want a good finisher. I can't tell you how many "pros" are terrible. You get one shot
 

bczygan

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Awesome, thanks. Are you talking about willow run airport?

Do some people call a thickened slab a rat wall, or are those different?

What advantage does a thickened slab have over what i am planning on (4" throughout)?

No, a small private airport.
A rat wall is a wall that doesn't support a substantial structure above it, but is there so rats can't dig under a slab or go under a structure and make a nest. There are different foundations that are commonly called "rat walls". Typically they are narrow (4"-6") and not deep (18"-24") so frost heave can effect them.
A thickened edge or turned down edge is stronger than just ending a 4" slab. Usually used where no structural wall is placed along them, but in warm parts of the country they are sometimes used for single story residential slab on grade construction.
Even when a foundation is structural there can be limitations. I recently had a client who wanted to add a room over the garage. He couldn't because the trench footing under the garage walls wasn't adequate for a two story structure. It would have stood up, but it didn't meet code.
 

Sureshot

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I have planned on making the cement thicker in a spot in anticipation of a lift somewhere down the road. It wont add much cost now, so thats a no brainer.

Yes, this cement work would be done inside the building. But right now i do not have a heater lined up, so at best i would use salimander heaters to heat the thing for how long....a month? I will read into how you canadians do cement work :D

Just don't let it freeze. If the building is enclosed and doors on I can't see an issue. Not sure what a salamander heater is but any heat to keep the frost out is all you need. The concrete will heat as it cures and being in an enclosed building you will have no issues.

I couldn't do the work myself when I did my 26x26 years ago. I needed a skidsteer and power trowel and the rent costs just made it senseless to even try.

Your temps are not staying below freezing all day are they? The frost really doesn't start to go in until it stays below freezing night and day. The heat in the ground will help you. I seriously doubt it would freeze inside the building before January. When I did a 24x24 addition on my pole building the crew couldn't be here until Dec if I remember correctly so I put down plastic and covered it with a layer of square straw bales and it was fine. They put up the shell and we poured the slab shortly after.
 
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Cheap5.0

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And as other guys have said you really want a good finisher. I can't tell you how many "pros" are terrible. You get one shot

I have a quote from someone who came reccomended by the concrete company, and after looking into them they do have references. Im thinking i should find a couple refrences in my neck of the woods and see if they would let me check it out?


No, a small private airport.
A rat wall is a wall that doesn't support a substantial structure above it, but is there so rats can't dig under a slab or go under a structure and make a nest. There are different foundations that are commonly called "rat walls". Typically they are narrow (4"-6") and not deep (18"-24") so frost heave can effect them.
A thickened edge or turned down edge is stronger than just ending a 4" slab. Usually used where no structural wall is placed along them, but in warm parts of the country they are sometimes used for single story residential slab on grade construction.
Even when a foundation is structural there can be limitations. I recently had a client who wanted to add a room over the garage. He couldn't because the trench footing under the garage walls wasn't adequate for a two story structure. It would have stood up, but it didn't meet code.

Thank you, for some reason its difficult to find simple answers on concrete work online...dont know why.



Just don't let it freeze. If the building is enclosed and doors on I can't see an issue. Not sure what a salamander heater is but any heat to keep the frost out is all you need. The concrete will heat as it cures and being in an enclosed building you will have no issues.

I couldn't do the work myself when I did my 26x26 years ago. I needed a skidsteer and power trowel and the rent costs just made it senseless to even try.

Your temps are not staying below freezing all day are they? The frost really doesn't start to go in until it stays below freezing night and day. The heat in the ground will help you. I seriously doubt it would freeze inside the building before January. When I did a 24x24 addition on my pole building the crew couldn't be here until Dec if I remember correctly so I put down plastic and covered it with a layer of square straw bales and it was fine. They put up the shell and we poured the slab shortly after.

Being that concrete work is far beyond my scope, i may have to shrink the size of my building a tad to account for the added cost...but atleast it will be done right.

When i mention salamnder heater (maybe its a regional term for these) i am talking about this:

hdr_torpedo.jpg


And thank you, i appreciate the help.
 

csp

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Unless you can build some sort of plastic tent over the concrete, a salamander or multiples of them aren't going to do much good. Concrete blankets to retain the heat that's created as concrete cures is a better option. Hopefully any contractor pouring that time of year knows that and has them.
 
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