California has a tire inflator regulation?

[stopdroplol]

You need an Auto repair license to work on cars in CA. Most of the time it's referred to as an ARB license.

Google isn't showing it. Got a source?

They investigate work if a consumer complains and they also send "BAR cars" into shops which are undercover cars usually with hidden cams/mics and they also mark parts with UV pens so they can tell if something has been replaced or not. It would be impossible to go around and check every repair it's just not practical. That doesn't mean they don't regulate however. They can come in and inspect your records anytime they want. They usually don't "inspect" the shop. That's OSHA's job.

So in the past 5 years. How many run-ins have you had with the BAR? OSHA? I really don't think it's impractical to have a look around the shop at least once a year. There a more than a few fields where government agencies do this. For instance, Restaurants?

It's been awhile since I looked at the law but I'm pretty sure if you passed along a $2 fee to check the tires nobody would want to pay it. I already have to charge $2 for hazmat per invoice.

I guess at that point you get them to sign the waiver and say you tried your best.

They didn't force me to buy the Snap-on inflator but in the beginning they said it had to meet some certification or approval so my older Amflo was no good. They don't seem to be enforcing the issue now though.

Hate to tell you this but harbor freight sells a pencil gauge for $4 that will meet that standard. At least they don't make you get the thing calibrated annually though.

Last time BAR came they wanted to warn not to recommend anything that's not in the vehicle manufacturers maintenance schedule as some shop's are overselling junk services (power steering/transmission/engine flushing, fuel injection services)
Since the economy is down they try to make it up with those BS services and tell the customers they NEED it done or XYZ will happen. Big NO-NO from the BAR.

Kinda basic but I guess it's better than nothing.

 

[toxicz28]

Toolhorder, i can not remember the last time i saw a full serve gas station.

Go to New Jersey, they all are. And gas is about $.40 cheaper per gallon than in NY.

 

[Underdog]

It would be nice if they were on the door jam, but the manufacturers seem to put them anywhere. Example, Volkswagen New Beetle, 2000 model, its on the inside of the gas filler door.

Also, they don't put that info in the owners manual, the manual sends you to the sticker on the car. On some cars, its in the glove box.

Charles

I say setting the tire pressure at the sidewall max is a whole lot better than low tire pressure. Kinda like any oil is better than No oil.

 

[Al Bundy]

I'm not sure what you make but I just computed a mastertech salary of 60,000 into 45 mins of extra work on 10 cars. It came out to $18.75 extra a day, or $1.87. Per vehicle. So even if you paid somebody a master techs salary, and passed 100% of that cost onto the consumer I still think this legislation is reasonable. And I think most people would be perfectly fine paying the extra 2 dollars.

The point is not that "people would be perfectly fine paying the extra 2 dollars". What you seem incapable of understanding is that every time more regulation is created to dictate a persons behavior, you are robbing them of freedom. It may not seem like much, but the cumulative effect is extremely disturbing.

No one will argue that it's not a good idea to have your tires properly inflated. I'm sure no one would argue that it's not a good idea to have a clean windshield. Why not pass a regulation requiring all auto mechanics to wash the windshield to? And how about wiping off the headlight lenses? Better yet let's just force them to do a 100 point inspection for every vehicle because it will make everything safer. Where do you draw the line? When we create a society where every persons actions are decided for them 24/7? Just because you think something is a good idea, it doesn't give you the right to impose your will on everyone else. We can't live in a society that has no regulations, that's clear enough. But I don't think many of us want to live in your world where our freedoms are constantly being assaulted by wide eyed kids that think we all need to be saved from ourselves.

 

[garfunkle24]

The point is not that "people would be perfectly fine paying the extra 2 dollars". What you seem incapable of understanding is that every time more regulation is created to dictate a persons behavior, you are robbing them of freedom. It may not seem like much, but the cumulative effect is extremely disturbing.

No one will argue that it's not a good idea to have your tires properly inflated. I'm sure no one would argue that it's not a good idea to have a clean windshield. Why not pass a regulation requiring all auto mechanics to wash the windshield to? And how about wiping off the headlight lenses? Better yet let's just force them to do a 100 point inspection for every vehicle because it will make everything safer. Where do you draw the line? When we create a society where every persons actions are decided for them 24/7? Just because you think something is a good idea, it doesn't give you the right to impose your will on everyone else. We can't live in a society that has no regulations, that's clear enough. But I don't think many of us want to live in your world where our freedoms are constantly being assaulted by wide eyed kids that think we all need to be saved from ourselves.

I agree that the amount of regulation should be questioned. My issue is that people are against any new regulation, rather than weighing the potential costs and benefits and deciding on a case-by-case basis, especially when they don't have all the facts.

Unilaterally hating on the EPA and CARB and everything they do may be fun but it doesn't really further the conversation.

 

[Lotek]

The point is not that "people would be perfectly fine paying the extra 2 dollars". What you seem incapable of understanding is that every time more regulation is created to dictate a persons behavior, you are robbing them of freedom. It may not seem like much, but the cumulative effect is extremely disturbing.

No one will argue that it's not a good idea to have your tires properly inflated. I'm sure no one would argue that it's not a good idea to have a clean windshield. Why not pass a regulation requiring all auto mechanics to wash the windshield to? And how about wiping off the headlight lenses? Better yet let's just force them to do a 100 point inspection for every vehicle because it will make everything safer. Where do you draw the line? When we create a society where every persons actions are decided for them 24/7? Just because you think something is a good idea, it doesn't give you the right to impose your will on everyone else. We can't live in a society that has no regulations, that's clear enough. But I don't think many of us want to live in your world where our freedoms are constantly being assaulted by wide eyed kids that think we all need to be saved from ourselves.

But it's different if the action is smoking an illegal weed...love the flipflop.

"Hate to tell you this but harbor freight sells a pencil gauge for $4 that will meet that standard." link?

All we in the trades want is a set of commonsense rules that aren't driven by nannystate feelgood politics, over regulation is choking this country.

 

[stopdroplol]

The point is not that "people would be perfectly fine paying the extra 2 dollars". What you seem incapable of understanding is that every time more regulation is created to dictate a persons behavior, you are robbing them of freedom. It may not seem like much, but the cumulative effect is extremely disturbing.

No one will argue that it's not a good idea to have your tires properly inflated. I'm sure no one would argue that it's not a good idea to have a clean windshield. Why not pass a regulation requiring all auto mechanics to wash the windshield to? And how about wiping off the headlight lenses? Better yet let's just force them to do a 100 point inspection for every vehicle because it will make everything safer. Where do you draw the line? When we create a society where every persons actions are decided for them 24/7? Just because you think something is a good idea, it doesn't give you the right to impose your will on everyone else. We can't live in a society that has no regulations, that's clear enough. But I don't think many of us want to live in your world where our freedoms are constantly being assaulted by wide eyed kids that think we all need to be saved from ourselves.

I made this point earlier but i'll say it again. The cost-benefit analysis of this regulation is massively in the green. By spending a few moments and a few pennies on every vehicle that comes in we will save tens of thousands in medical costs, collision costs, and fighting pollution, and in addition you'll be improving customer satisfaction and saving their time that they would've spent on the side of the rode.

Despite how some may feel, I am not unilaterally in favor of all regulations. In the process of getting my A&P I've encountered many regulations that are, besides antiquated, absolutely ludicrous. But as a whole, it's these regulations that really make flying the safest form of transportation. And after accounting for the inherent danger and complexity of flying, I think that's really quite amazing.

At the end of the day, every car on the rode should have the proper tire pressure. And I believe the state has every right to enforce that.

"Hate to tell you this but harbor freight sells a pencil gauge for $4 that will meet that standard." link?

http://www.harborfreight.com/pencil-tire-gauge-92142.html

Will be accurate to less <2psi up to 40 psi.

over regulation is choking this country.

Riiiiiight, it was over-regulation that caused this mess were in

 

[Lotek]

But it's different if the action is smoking an illegal weed...love the flipflop.

"Hate to tell you this but harbor freight sells a pencil gauge for $4 that will meet that standard." link?

All we in the trades want is a set of commonsense rules that aren't driven by nannystate feelgood politics, over regulation is choking this country.

I made this point earlier but i'll say it again. The cost-benefit analysis of this regulation is massively in the green. By spending a few moments and a few pennies on every vehicle that comes in we will save tens of thousands in medical costs, collision costs, and fighting pollution, and in addition you'll be improving customer satisfaction and saving their time that they would've spent on the side of the rode.

Despite how some may feel, I am not unilaterally in favor of all regulations. In the process of getting my A&P I've encountered many regulations that are, besides antiquated, absolutely ludicrous. But as a whole, it's these regulations that really make flying the safest form of transportation. And after accounting for the inherent danger and complexity of flying, I think that's really quite amazing.

At the end of the day, every car on the rode should have the proper tire pressure. And I believe the state has every right to enforce that.




http://www.harborfreight.com/pencil-tire-gauge-92142.html

Will be accurate to less <2psi up to 40 psi.

FAIL, try +-2psi at 80psi


Riiiiiight, it was over-regulation that caused this mess were in
In Ca? Yes

Get your Google on and try again on the gauge.

And do your homework on the rest of what you are saying, don't just listen to soundbites on the evening news. The tire pressure regulation may reduce green house gasses by .5% by 2020, and that is CARB's own number. That is the entire focus of the law, the safety aspects were not even a consideration to the peope in Sacramento, they really don't care about us, just their agendas, getting reelected and getting a cushy job after they are termed out.

 

[Al Bundy]

I made this point earlier but i'll say it again. The cost-benefit analysis of this regulation is massively in the green. By spending a few moments and a few pennies on every vehicle that comes in we will save tens of thousands in medical costs, collision costs, and fighting pollution, and in addition you'll be improving customer satisfaction and saving their time that they would've spent on the side of the rode.

Keep drinkin' the Kool-Aid kid. And it's the side of the road, not rode.

 

[stopdroplol]

Get your Google on and try again on the gauge.

Seriously? That pencil gauge will work just fine for the majority of road cars out there. And I'm willing to bet all those pencil gauges have pretty much the same accuracy. And if harbor freight can make sell a gauge that meets the standard for cheap, so can every other chain on box store. But just to play your game, 2nd link of google. http://www.autoanything.com/driving...ferralID=3aedea63-17bc-11e1-9866-001b2166becc Accurate up to 100psi, with +-1psi.

Oh and let me know when the next time the BAR or any agency comes into your automotive shop and wants to see your calibration stickers. I have plenty of tools that i'll have to pay an arm and leg for annually just to be able to use them on an aircraft so I really have no sympthathy for the auto mechanics on this issue.

And do your homework on the rest of what you are saying, don't just listen to soundbites on the evening news. The tire pressure regulation may reduce green house gasses by .5% by 2020, and that is CARB's own number. That is the entire focus of the law, the safety aspects were not even a consideration to the peope in Sacramento, they really don't care about us, just their agendas, getting reelected and getting a cushy job after they are termed out.

Once again. There's many benefits to this. The environmental reason is just one, and it just so happens to be the motive that the environmental agency used. The safety aspect is the #1 reason I support it. And yes, even if we just looked it the environmental concern, I think this is still reasonable.

 

[Lotek]

Wait till the kid gets out in the real world...

Good job on the Google though, that one might work a little better, but Toolhorder bought one with an inflater, apples to oranges there skippy. Once more for the prize?

 

[Danglerb]

http://www.harborfreight.com/pencil-tire-gauge-92142.html

Will be accurate to less <2psi up to 40 psi.

Read tire pressures up to 50 PSI
Handy pocket clip
Accuracy +/- 5%

Accuracy is typically expressed as a percent of the full scale reading, 50 PSI, 5% of that is 2.5 psi which does not meet the standard even if the accuracy is what they claim.

Regardless what you need isn't an "accurate" gauge, you need a CYA gauge with a sticker just like any other regulation.

 

[Outlander]

Toolhorder, i can not remember the last time i saw a full serve gas station.

Ha...I stopped for gas the other day and there was no little slot to put my debit card into the pump. I was still scratching my head when a grizzly old fella came out and filled 'er up for me. He did not offer to check the oil or wash my windows, though . Hmmph.

 

[poprockcrusher]

I still don't see the ignorance in my statement. But the overall point I was trying to make was there is very little regulatory oversight into auto mechanics and the work they do. If they wanna cry when somebody forces them to do a task they should already be doing in the first place as a mechanic then I couldn't care less. I can probably think of 10+ reasons why a mechanic should check the tire pressure (and condition) of every vehicle he works on, but the one i'm most concerned about is safety. Not just for the driver but the community as well.

You do realize how mechanics are paid , right ?

yet another Legacy of the Ford Explorer and the wayward parking brake cables

 

[Danglerb]

Ha...I stopped for gas the other day and there was no little slot to put my debit card into the pump. I was still scratching my head when a grizzly old fella came out and filled 'er up for me. He did not offer to check the oil or wash my windows, though . Hmmph.

Could of been a homeless guy just wandering around the station.

Station down the street from my house used to have one or two islands full service, and pump price was something less than 50 cents a gallon more than self serve, but that stopped a couple years ago I am assuming due to lack of use.

 

[stopdroplol]

Read tire pressures up to 50 PSI
Handy pocket clip
Accuracy +/- 5%

Accuracy is typically expressed as a percent of the full scale reading, 50 PSI, 5% of that is 2.5 psi which does not meet the standard even if the accuracy is what they claim.

Maybe $4 cen-tech pencil gauge isn't an accurate example but that's incorrect in terms of precision instruments. If it's a percentage it means it's variable. If its a number value it means it's fixed. A true calibrated instrument would have both in addition to the range. It would look something like this +-(2psi + 1%) 0-30psi, +-(4psi +2%) 30-60psi.

In the above example if we took a reading that was 15 psi the accuracy would be 15+-(2psi +(.01x15)=15 +-(2psi+.015)=15+-(2.015Psi)=12.985-17.015

Regardless what you need isn't an "accurate" gauge, you need a CYA gauge with a sticker just like any other regulation.

That's not what the law says. Regardless the point I was making was they didn't make anyone buy the premium brand instrument. +-2psi is not an extremely sensitive measurement and i'm sure a number of instruments that meet that standard can be had for cheap at any local hardware store. If they don't come with a sticker there's services out there that will give it to you for $20-30 bucks.

 

[RotoRoss]

Blah blah blah, big government blah blah blah.

Honestly guys, this is a great idea. Improves mileage, safety, life of tires, and probably 20 other things. It's a win for the consumer all the way around. The smart shops would do this even if there wasn't a regulation, the cost is almost nothing, and it would improve customer satisfaction and protect them from possible lawsuits. Not to mention it's just good mechanic.

It's not the owners fault. Nobody is required (or even expected) to know how to fix or maintain their own car. Most people would prefer to pay somebody to do it for them.

edit: also for the record CARB and the EPA really don't get along. The EPA, while good in intent is usually held in check by other government forces and lobbying interest. The CARB on the other hand is able to go further than the EPA and really embarrasses them on quite a few things.

I assume you have done in-depth research and fully understand all the studies and testing involved in those policies before labeling the "agencey" as retarded?

Surely you wouldn't be hypocritical enough to mock an entity for it's lack of substantial research without doing that, right?

1. All smog techs are required to check tire pressures prior to smog testing.
2 CARB is headed by a woman who is an political appointee not elected and answers to NO one and is regulated by NO one .She operates with impunity and uses studies by a fellow who advised her who is from a foreign country and whose degrees and credentials were falsified, nothing was done.
3.why worry about checking, their solution will to be for each vehicle to report to the state thru the on board computers via the satelites any issue they see fit. You will be fined or assessed in any way they see fit for any infraction . They have tried but succeeded not yet to charge us usage fees per mile in CA for distance and mileage.

Typically the lowest fine for any infraction is a 100.00 on paper but after assessing court costs it is typically 4-500.00 (reflected even in the courtesy notice via the mail even if you pay and don't use the courthouse) which typically now they have stopped as a service. Now, if you got a ticket they will wait til after the court date and inform you by mail the additional charges (another 270-350.00 for the mailing hassle) and a new die or go to jail date to pay by mail. you must find out who the agency is that will collect it off site usually some agency several towns away who has gotten the contract to provide service locally, In my area they come from another state (does arms length mean anything to you?).

Neither the judge or the bailiff will give you an itemized break down ( they will state that in court that fines will typically run between 4 and 5 times the judge's assessment. You may obtain(but they will not tell you you are entitled to )an itemized receipt from the cashier but not the court clerk who makes the total which takes the cashier into the back room to calculate it, 99.99 % of folks never ask for it. Just one of the line items is 75.00 fee for walking thru the metal detector in the Court House lobby (assessed to only those who use the courtroom with a Judge, everybody else is exempt and a 200.00 civil assessment for use of the court house just be cause we need the money..so there!.

If you witness court, The Court plays a cute ILLEGAL ALIEN game "don't ask, don't tell ...prior to court w/ the Judge, the clerks/ bailiffs ask who needs a translator? (special code word) they are then herded in separate group and are heard individually once the interpreter shows up. Typically each is there for No license and NO Insurance. Judge asks only 2 questions Are you able to get a license answer? No. Are you able to get insurance....,NO ....Case dismissed. 15-20 in a row...TOTAL FREE ride . Witness it, believe it . hypocrisy?
So, I don't appreciate it when people who don't even live here pretend to lecture us about HYPOCRISY and how much we know about the skullduggery of our officials and politicians ... WE are in fact very aware. So mind your OWN business

 

[stopdroplol]

You do realize how mechanics are paid , right ?

Cost of doing business. To which I say again, take it up with the employer who is actually the one responsible under this law.

 

[diesel research]

Cost of doing business. To which I say again, take it up with the employer who is actually the one responsible under this law.

At typical rates and assuming 4 minutes (could be longer if seriously out of adjustment or more than 4 tires) this is an additional cost (to the customer) of $6.67.

That's just the cost of ownership....

Don't like it? Start walking. Hmm, perhaps this regulation stuff is good for business. They might want to take it a step more, and start implementing a $10 monthly sticker. Your tire inspection out of date? Hit the consumer with a $75 fine.

____________________________

DOT enforces OTR tire pressure, and can and will check tire pressure, issue citations on the spot, and ground the truck from moving until the issue is corrected.

(h) Tire inflation pressure. (1) No motor vehicle shall be operated on a tire which has a cold inflation pressure less than that specified for the load being carried.

While it is not federal/state regulation, we must replace any tire that has fell below 65-90psi (depending on position and specific type) due to the fact it cannot be determined how long it has been operated at that pressure and what load it has been under. It has to be assumed that the sidewall has weakened to the point it risks blowing apart while inflating it, or a short time down the road as pressure/temperature rises further.

 

[stopdroplol]

At typical rates and assuming 4 minutes (could be longer if seriously out of adjustment or more than 4 tires) this is an additional cost (to the customer) of $6.67.

I'm curious how you came up with that number. I used a master tech salary and toolhorder's estimated job time and came out to $1.87 average per vehicle Even if your number is accurate, the customer will very likely make that money back in fuel saving and extended tire life.

 

[diesel research]

I'm curious how you came up with that number. I used a master tech salary and toolhorder's estimated job time and came out to $1.87 average per vehicle Even if your number is accurate, the customer will very likely make that money back in fuel saving and extended tire life.

Uh uh, not so quick. What the mastertech makes is of minimal importance.

Your local area should cost around $100/hr give or take. I believe I am being generous, but it's a nice round number.

At that rate, each extra minute is costing the shop $1.67 (to maintain whatever productivity numbers they are shooting for). After all, those minutes could be spent on new revenue.

So what is $1.67? Let's use some simple numbers. 15 techs, 10 cars, 4 tires each, 1 minute each. Hmmm...I see a problem. Such a small number suddenly seems quite large. 15x10x4x$1.67 is $1002/day that could have went towards something "productive".

With those numbers, cars are in the bay 600 minutes longer per day than otherwise. That's 10 hours lost. That might have went towards paying work. That bay costs money each minute, whether it is being used or not. Real estate costs, electricity, etc. Lets not forget about morale losses of the employees as they begin to figure out how many minutes/dollars they are loosing.

Now realistically, not every tech might be pushing out 10/day. They could be slow, shop traffic could be slow, or they could have 1 big ticket and be on the same car for the whole day or more. There is also most likely more than 15 techs though.

These operations are striving for efficiency a lot more than you would think. My shop just spent $4000 for a small lista tool cabinet for 1 bay. I could not figure out why, and accidentally stumbled across the research papers. They figured (by conducting some studies/research) that an extra 99,000 steps and 35 hours were spent each year in that service bay (dedicated for a very specific repetitive job) searching for parts to complete the task. Through ROI analysis, they found the extra time spent could result in many more vehicles being pushed out the door simply by having a stocked parts/tool cabinet next to it.

Your master tech figure of ~60k equates out to $28xx/hr (keep in mind they are on flag). Let's call it $25/flag.

Ok, so you might say 40 minutes is .66 hr and therefore "only" a loss of $16.65/day. Again, not so fast. What if his ERL or productivity is 125%? Maybe he is a gravy sucker, real fast, or who knows? So in a given 40 minutes he can accomplish 50 minutes worth of pay in those 40 minutes. All of a sudden he is actually out $20 pre-tax. That's $100 a week!

You mail me $20 each day and let's see how long you don't miss it. I really could use the extra money...

 

[Danglerb]

I should have a reasonable expectation that my car is safe to drive after ANY kind of service. That is simply the nature of being a professional, and tires have been a neglected area for a long time.

 

[diesel research]

A tech should have a reasonable expectation to be paid for any work performed....it goes both ways.

The expectation a customer should have is that any work paid for is actually performed, and customer concerns (initial complaints) are properly handled.

The right to expectations of safety only come after approving needed work on work order.

If you want a complete safety inspection, you need to pay for one. Otherwise, if you bring your car in to have a footprint gas pedal installed, that is all you should expect.

If you hire a plumber to install a toilet, it is not his job to inspect your septic tank, water quality, or any of numerous other unrelated tasks.

Your employer doesn't make you punch out and perform a menial task like taking out the trash, picking up supplies, or even performing normal work off the clock.
_______________________

I'm hourly, so I do a thorough inspection of each vehicle in the shop for more than 15 minutes, but I'm getting paid, so it's a non-issue. Not to mention I would rather find things wrong and be on less vehicles (but more work per vehicle)

Now if I wasn't getting paid, I would have a different gripe. That is mentioned above. Simple as that.

 

[garfunkle24]

So, I don't appreciate it when people who don't even live here pretend to lecture us about HYPOCRISY and how much we know about the skullduggery of our officials and politicians ... WE are in fact very aware. So mind your OWN business

I don't appreciate noobs with 16 frickin posts telling me what I can and can't comment on.

Why did you even quote me? Was my statement wrong?

What does location have to do with my right to an opinion? This board, as with the rest of the internet I'm pretty sure, is international.

Why don't you mind your own business?

 

[wafrederick]

California does have stupid laws and they fined the **** out of bike builder Jesse James so many times for his custom built motorcycles not meeting emission standards.He said screw you to them and moved to Texas for this reason.

 

[GoBlue]

1.
So, I don't appreciate it when people who don't even live here pretend to lecture us about HYPOCRISY and how much we know about the skullduggery of our officials and politicians ... WE are in fact very aware. So mind your OWN business

As soon Commiefornia's lawmakers stop poisoning the rest of the United States or the state falls into the ocean we will mind our own business.

 

[Lotek]

A tech should have a reasonable expectation to be paid for any work performed....it goes both ways.

The expectation a customer should have is that any work paid for is actually performed, and customer concerns (initial complaints) are properly handled.

The right to expectations of safety only come after approving needed work on work order.

If you want a complete safety inspection, you need to pay for one. Otherwise, if you bring your car in to have a footprint gas pedal installed, that is all you should expect.

If you hire a plumber to install a toilet, it is not his job to inspect your septic tank, water quality, or any of numerous other unrelated tasks.

Your employer doesn't make you punch out and perform a menial task like taking out the trash, picking up supplies, or even performing normal work off the clock.
_______________________

I'm hourly, so I do a thorough inspection of each vehicle in the shop for more than 15 minutes, but I'm getting paid, so it's a non-issue. Not to mention I would rather find things wrong and be on less vehicles (but more work per vehicle)

Now if I wasn't getting paid, I would have a different gripe. That is mentioned above. Simple as that.

Well stated.

If I am supposed to be responsible for a complete safety inspection on every car that comes in my stall, even one that came in for a blown cigarette lighter fuse, then I should have the authority to order a car to be grounded for safety reasons, and not release the vehicle until the safety issues are addressed, no more "I'll have my mechanic do that" or "I'll do that myself" or driving off with bald tires, grinding brakes, and a check engine light. But what if the customer can't afford the repairs? Sorry, it's a government regulation, here's a bus token. Or maybe the government should pay, in fact why doesn't the government take over the whole induustry, bald tires and bad brakes are a definite threat to public safety, I'd love one of those government jobs with all the bennys and a pension at 55, we could call it Stopdropandlol-care.


Wait, it's been tried before, anyone remember the Soviet Union?
Frrom each according to his abilities, to each according his needs...sounds nice, but...

 

[bobcatdan]

This is just another exapmle of F@#% up the world is, everbody who makes the rules and decisions for a company or goverenment do not know a F@#$ about what they are doing.

 

[Nor*Cal]

You guys continue to argue about safety which is nice but this is a regulation that's purpose is to reduce greenhouse gases. To say the ARB was not aware of what they were doing is ignorant of the regulations ARB has passed. They do not generally care about the economic impacts of their regulations and you do not need many examples to see that. Look at the California specific vehicle standards that have been around for decades, fuel standards, upcoming biofuel requirements, DPF requirements, and so on. To make an argument around safety and costs avoids their one true goal which is greenhouse gas reductions, which this certainly achieves and heightens the importance of proper tire inflation. I'm not arguing for the regulation just stating that many here are missing the point and their arguments go largely ignored by the members of the ARB and the democratic run legislature. Rarely does an economic argument make ANY changes to their policies.

 

[stopdroplol]

Uh uh, not so quick. What the mastertech makes is of minimal importance.

Your local area should cost around $100/hr give or take. I believe I am being generous, but it's a nice round number.

At that rate, each extra minute is costing the shop $1.67 (to maintain whatever productivity numbers they are shooting for). After all, those minutes could be spent on new revenue.

So what is $1.67? Let's use some simple numbers. 15 techs, 10 cars, 4 tires each, 1 minute each. Hmmm...I see a problem. Such a small number suddenly seems quite large. 15x10x4x$1.67 is $1002/day that could have went towards something "productive".

With those numbers, cars are in the bay 600 minutes longer per day than otherwise. That's 10 hours lost. That might have went towards paying work. That bay costs money each minute, whether it is being used or not. Real estate costs, electricity, etc. Lets not forget about morale losses of the employees as they begin to figure out how many minutes/dollars they are loosing.

Are you telling me there's no way the shop can ensure the proper tire pressure in all the vehicles that come through without losing a thousand dollars a day? If that were true i'd say that's a very inefficient way of doing business and they have a problem.

I don't see why the tech should be losing any money. Say he makes $28 an hour. If it takes 40 minutes to do 10 cars then he earned $1.84 per vehicle. The car is already in the shop and being serviced so there shouldn't be any additional overhead (or very little) so long as you can move the car in/out in the same amount of time. The only thing that changes is working hours which just labor. And if we factor in all the techs then we're gonna get the sum of what what you claimed it cost the shop. So the only cost I see is the $1.84 on the consumer, which will be more than returned in improved fuel economy and tire life.

Also, just curious. How many shops can move 150 cars a day? And how much of the work the average shop perform is really being charged $100/hr or 1.67/min? I really have no idea but I imagine if you used numbers that were an average of all the shops this law applies to your values would be a lot less, and a lot more accurate in practice.

 

[diesel research]

Are you telling me there's no way the shop can ensure the proper tire pressure in all the vehicles that come through without losing a thousand dollars a day? If that were true i'd say that's a very inefficient way of doing business and they have a problem.

I don't see why the tech should be losing any money. Say he makes $28 an hour. If it takes 40 minutes to do 10 cars then he earned $1.84 per vehicle. The car is already in the shop and being serviced so there shouldn't be any additional overhead (or very little) so long as you can move the car in/out in the same amount of time. The only thing that changes is working hours which just labor. And if we factor in all the techs then we're gonna get the sum of what what you claimed it cost the shop. So the only cost I see is the $1.84 on the consumer, which will be more than returned in improved fuel economy and tire life.

Also, just curious. How many shops can move 150 cars a day? And how much of the work the average shop perform is really being charged $100/hr or 1.67/min? I really have no idea but I imagine if you used numbers that were an average of all the shops this law applies to your values would be a lot less, and a lot more accurate in practice.

I have no idea how many are moved in other shops. We are considered "small shop" and push about 50 out a day and always have another 50 in the holding yard, plus a few "walk-ins"

Most work is charged out to the standard labor rate except warranty work and "special packages", but pretty much any routine work like brakes, engine, suspension, drivetrain, etc is billed at regular rates. Our rate is around $105 for accounting purposes (no cash exchanged) and it is a bit on the lower end compared to other OTR shops in the area. Passenger car shops in the area have a similar or slightly lower rate depending on indy or dealer. The rate does not change depending on how much the tech is paid. You cannot request a C-tech or apprentice and expect a lower rate.

You don't understand overhead and "productivity" obviously. Anytime it is taking up valuable space and not generating revenue (tire psi does not generate additional revenue since it is "no charge" and a vehicle is waiting outside that could be generating additional revenue, it is considered a "loss". Just like other "losses" like having to wait for parts.

The consumer is not paying another $1.84. They pay a set price. Let's say work performed cost .5hr. They pay something more than $50, the tech gets paid $14 regardless how long the job takes. The customer is not paying any additional cost for the additional time spent.

"A very inefficient way of doing business" is spending 10hrs a day doing "free" work, when you could have been doing something that pays. (the shop as a whole) What else could have been done in those 10hrs? Maybe a gazillion wallet flushes, several sets of brakes, some pretty serious "heavy line" work, etc. Something you would have been able to bill for.

I have a feeling you do not understand the basis of flat rate and do not know that the tech is not usually paid hourly/salary just for being there and or doing non-billable things. In some harder hit areas, techs can recall a day where they went to work for __hours and got paid $0.00 (a master may very well have a guarantee or base, but let's talk about the average guy)

 

[Danglerb]

Your pay, your work terms, are your business, between you and your employer. It may take some time for a new balance to be worked out, but eventually you will get paid for it, or allowance made for it.

Sure as hell though, some shop is going to get sued when a customer car has a tire fail.

Once that happens, shop insurance, etc etc will all have some changes ripple through.

I don't see the big gripe, shops make a free brake inspection pay pretty well, and/or they come up with a "safety inspection" fee just like the hazmat or materials fee.

 

[diesel research]

I don't see the big gripe, shops make a free brake inspection pay pretty well, and/or they come up with a "safety inspection" fee just like the hazmat or materials fee.

No such thing as a free brake inspection. Around here they call it "looking for work". The inspection is to sell you a brake job, and the time is justified between the brake jobs that actually get sold.

How will they find a way to do that with tires? Sell you new tires if they are low? (I know I said we replace, but that's totally different)

So, yes, a small fee would make the most sense.

Or a mandatory tire inspection sticker each month.

 

[stopdroplol]

You don't understand overhead and "productivity" obviously. Anytime it is taking up valuable space and not generating revenue (tire psi does not generate additional revenue since it is "no charge" and a vehicle is waiting outside that could be generating additional revenue, it is considered a "loss". Just like other "losses" like having to wait for parts.

"A very inefficient way of doing business" is spending 10hrs a day doing "free" work, when you could have been doing something that pays. (the shop as a whole) What else could have been done in those 10hrs? Maybe a gazillion wallet flushes, several sets of brakes, some pretty serious "heavy line" work, etc. Something you would have been able to bill for.

If it were free then that would make sense, but nowhere in the law does it say "to be performed free of charge." And nowhere in my scenarios was it done for free. Also, in the real world you wouldn't get 10hrs of work out of the minutes you spend here and there checking the tire pressure. There is gonna be a major loss in transitioning, prep work, and bottle necking. I mean, unless you can somehow line up every car you're gonna work on in the beginning or end of the day and get through all those tires at once it's just not possible.

I don't believe there is any overhead associated with adjusting tire pressure in addition to doing whatever work brought it in originally. The car is still going to be using that space whether you check the pressure or not, the only thing that increases is working hours, and the cost of working hours is dependent on labor. I suppose my original explanation was a bit off, the shop will get paid that $1.84 but the mechanic may not see it. That isn't the consumers fault though, or even the fault of this new law and it is something they should take up with their employer or write it off as the cost of doing business.

 

[garfunkle24]

How will they find a way to do that with tires? Sell you new tires if they are low? (I know I said we replace, but that's totally different)

They can use it to up-sell N2 services. Not saying I don't think N2 is BS, just that they could use pressure checks for an up-sell.

 

[ezover]

And they paid someone hourly a living wage to do that, they didn't expect a flatrate tech to stop making money and work for free, as they do now.

no they did not, i did it for minimum wage for several years when i was in high school.

full service was pump the gas, wash the windows, check oil, trans fluid, brake fluid, water level in the battery, water/anti-freeze in radiator, air the tires, and any other minor service the custermer wanted.

granted not every custermer wanted it all every time, but that's what the job was.

 

[chriswin3]

I don't see why the tech should be losing any money. Say he makes $28 an hour. If it takes 40 minutes to do 10 cars then he earned $1.84 per vehicle. The car is already in the shop and being serviced so there shouldn't be any additional overhead (or very little) so long as you can move the car in/out in the same amount of time. The only thing that changes is working hours which just labor. And if we factor in all the techs then we're gonna get the sum of what what you claimed it cost the shop. So the only cost I see is the $1.84 on the consumer, which will be more than returned in improved fuel economy and tire life.

Also, just curious. How many shops can move 150 cars a day? And how much of the work the average shop perform is really being charged $100/hr or 1.67/min? I really have no idea but I imagine if you used numbers that were an average of all the shops this law applies to your values would be a lot less, and a lot more accurate in practice.

The shop I work at have 8 techs working 11 hours a day. Most techs can easily do two cars an hour, for 16 cars an hour times 11 hours which equals.. 176 cars. I have no problem saying two cars an hours is the average, you have good days and you have bad days.

We only check tires pressure for a LOF service or Tire Service or a major job. If you bring your car in for something simple like a headlight or windshield wiper we are not checking the tire pressure unless a tire is obviously low, in which case we will try to sell a flat repair or new tire depending on the condition.

stopdroplol you really have no idea what a tech deals with and does for free on the average day. I do love my job and usually have no problem taking a look at stuff for people.

 

[SpiderGearsMan]

most post 2006 cars have TPMS , so the car checks the tire pressure for you

 

[Lotek]

most post 2006 cars have TPMS , so the car checks the tire pressure for you

You should know better than that, how do you know the tires are where they are supposed to be. And the law says check it with a gauge.

Sure the shop will raise its rates or tack on a fee, I can guarantee you it won't trickle down to the tech. In this economy the shop owner will say "there are 5 guys looking for a job" Ever read The Grapes Of Wrath?
This is death by a thousand cuts. I'm sure these bureaucrats think they are doing a good thing, and it only takes a few minutes, but it adds up, slowly but surely.

Someone who has never worked flatrate won't understand, it's a zero sum game, if one guy gets stuck on a problem car, the other guys do the work he would have gotten otherwise, the guy who spends 5 minutes checking and documenting tire pressures after changing a lighter fuse, misses the next ticket, and if work is slow, have a seat, that's it for the day.

 

[SpiderGearsMan]

most of the GM **** reads the TPMS out on the driver info center
at three tenths on a service , damned straight you are getting sold more than a tire pressure check