A story for you all

[HarleyArley]

Im quite familiar with the doctrine. It also covers public places where eminent harm may occur to innocent public bystanders. If she had brandished a weapon, even only showing it present in a waistband, he would be well within his legal rights to draw a firearm (if he had one) and detain her until police arrive. This type of case has been well covered in the supreme court, especially in Ohio.

One case in particular involved an elderly gentleman (Joe Horn) that came across two illegal immigrants robbing his neighbors home. One brandished a firearm, the old man asked him to drop the weapon, and when he took a step toward him, the old man shot him dead. When his partner in crime made a dash, the old timer shot him dead as well. Mr. Horn was later exhonorated of any wrongdoing.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Horn_shooting_controversy

I would repeat my earlier advise that you do some more research into Ohio's castle doctine law.

You are correct that you would be completely OK with the law to disarm and detain someone brandishing a firearm in public, but that did not occur in this case and Ohio's castle doctrine law has nothing to do with it. The CD law eliminates your duty to retreat while in your home or car. Nothing else. You still must fear for your life and have done nothing to create or escalate the situation prior to use of deadly force.

As for the Joe Horn case, that was in Texas, where the use of deadly force to protect property is legal. Ohio's laws have no such provision. The Horn case has nothing to do with the situation we are discussing or Ohio's castle doctrine law.

 

[DARKSCOPE001]

Wow...

"IMA GET MY GUN" .... would have probably got her tackled...

I was thinking about it. She said that right as I was removing the gascap from the metal hook in the fuel door. I was thinking about running up and slaming her to the ground and yelling at my gf to call the cops.

I like everyones idea of recording with the cellphone. I should practice doing that with one hand so I can get it out and start recording. Should I make it apparent that she is on video? keep it down low in my pocket to keep it out of her sight?

Thanks
Sean Scott

 

[HarleyArley]

I want to get my CCW but my GF said im not allowed till i get my attitude under control, and probably with good reason I had a nasty temper but im getting better about it especially since I got out of retail. When I worked retail I had a bad temper and would go off alot. Never did anything crazy but would get mad over the dumbest things. I try to just let things go now but I just felt that saying "calm down" might help and i didnt want her to hurt my girl. Didnt know it was going to result in this.

But yes I think after when I have some cash saved up im going to take the proper classes and buy a CCW, I think im prepared to have one now.

I did ask my stepdad what i should have done last night (ex cop, ex detective, currently fraud investigation/ security management for a bank)
He told me that if I had my ccw I would have been allowed to draw it, (not fire) but draw it say something in a calm cool voice like "I wouldn't do that" Get away. and call the police letting them know what happened and that you drew your firearm but shots were not fired.

Question tho, I dont want to shoot anyone if I dont have to I was thinking about getting a revolver with some big rounds but I was thinking about adding a flashlight, here is my logic If I felt threatened and needed to draw it I could turn on the flashlight (would get a very bright one) telling them to back down and allowing me to get away without having to shoot. Or would that just aggravate the situation?

You really need to take the course (oh and quit listening to former cops)... the only time you may draw a CCW is if you 1) fear for you life, 2) have done nothing to create or escaalate the situation, and 3) have tried and been unable to retreat from and remove yourself from the situation. Drawing a gun is escalation unless you immediately use it because you feared for your life. Leave it in the holster concealed unless and until you meet conditions 1 thru 3.

Don't just beleive me though... take the course and read the OH CCW booklet.

 

[msnow]

"Rather be judged by 12 then carried by 6" just saying.

 

[ptschram]

Lotsa folks saying what they would have done.

In the situations I've encountered, I reacted at first like the OP, shocked amazement that it was happening.

Those of us who are not LEOs are probably not adept at quickly drawing their sidearms and unless the assailant was equally encumbered, might result in an unacceptable outcome.

It's really easy to say how you'd react, but when the adrenaline is pumping as hard as it will be, when you are that frightened, time either slows WAY down, or speeds WAY up.

The use of deadly force (MO) should always be reserved for situations where you cannot retreat/escape/hide, you don't know the assailant, or they are directly threatening you with grievous bodily injury with no means to avoid.

Yes, I do think that backing down and retreating were the correct responses to this situation.

 

[ptschram]

the only time you may draw a CCW is if you 1) fear for you life,

This is dependent upon the state. Indiana's standard is "fear of grievous bodily injury" and the annotations indicate that it has not been defined due to the uniqueness of each situation.

 

[powertrip]

Let me guess. Whitehall or Reynoldsburg?

 

[HarleyArley]

OP said nothing about being armed and as he does not currently have a CCW permit, he most likely was not. Therefore use of deadly force (via firearm at least) was not even on the table.

Choices were:

1) retreive gf and run away (or leave gf... I've no idea how fond of her he is - kidding!)
2) stand around watching while crazy lady get her "supposed" gun
3) stop crazy lady from getting to gun and detain her until LEOs arrive

Choice #! would be the best one if time permitted.
Choice #3 would be the best choice if Choice #1 was not viable
Choice #2 is suicidal unless you want to put your life in the hands of said crazy lady.

 

[HarleyArley]

This is dependent upon the state. Indiana's standard is "fear of grievous bodily injury" and the annotations indicate that it has not been defined due to the uniqueness of each situation.

Ohio's law is worded similarly. You are correct. I simplified it for the purpose of the discussion.

 

[Brad54]

Gasoline... it's flammable and comes out of it's own "gun" at a fairly good clip. After covering her, you could have then explained that shooting her gun would have ignited her.

Then call the police and file a report to send the **** to jail where she belongs.

-Brad

 

[TireTracks]

I'd call the cops, and go to the station you were at to retrive Security cam tapes.
If they can arrest her, you will have stoped her from being able to hurt anyone else, if she actualy has a gun you got lucky.

 

[Toolhorder]

"Rather be judged by 12 then carried by 6" just saying.

Easy to say until you're about to be judged by 12 and lose your freedom and everything you've worked for. I've been there it's not fun. I would advise people on this forum to avoid people like the woman in the OP's story. If someone confronts you just get away from them unless you absolutely have to do something about it. The problem is once you pull your gun proving you felt like you were in danger isn't so easy when the other party starts lying to the police. It happened to me and it was a horrible experience.

I used to be a keyboard commando too. It costs me big time when it happened for real though.

 

[ol'Red]

Hard to say what to do I have never been in that kind of confrontation. Im glad you and your gf are safe and you are lucky, however the "crazy lady" is lucky that she didn't mouth off to someone who doesn't misplace their gun.

 

[ptschram]

Easy to say until you're about to be judged by 12 and lose your freedom and everything you've worked for. I've been there it's not fun. I would advise people on this forum to avoid people like the woman in the OP's story. If someone confronts you just get away from them unless you absolutely have to do something about it. The problem is once you pull your gun proving you felt like you were in danger isn't so easy when the other party starts lying to the police. It happened to me and it was a horrible experience.

I used to be a keyboard commando too. It costs me big time when it happened for real though.

It's different in Ohio and Indiana than California. A jury here would definitely see things differently here than there.

 

[HOTFR8]

What started it all in the first place ???

 

[Toolhorder]

It's different in Ohio and Indiana than California. A jury here would definitely see things differently here than there.

Yeah in my case I never let it get there. I got offered a misdemeanor after 2.5 years of fighting the case and it was a sure thing so I took it. A felony would have ruined me for my career and I figured as soon as I can I'm leaving this crummy state for good so no other anti-gun DA could screw with my life again.

 

[Danglerb]

When I run across a crazy person, my first thought is not how can I place my life in their hands. Leave, if its easy snap a pict of the car, person, and license and call the cops, mostly just leave.

 

[HOTFR8]

This should be moved to Free Parking.

 

[HarleyArley]

Yeah in my case I never let it get there. I got offered a misdemeanor after 2.5 years of fighting the case and it was a sure thing so I took it. A felony would have ruined me for my career and I figured as soon as I can I'm leaving this crummy state for good so no other anti-gun DA could screw with my life again.

Sorry to hear you had to go through all that. I can't even imagine the time and money lost fighting such a charge to 2 1/2 years even if you eventually fought it down to a misdemeanor. Glad its behind you though!

 

[Toolhorder]

Sorry to hear you had to go through all that. I can't even imagine the time and money lost fighting such a charge to 2 1/2 years even if you eventually fought it down to a misdemeanor. Glad its behind you though!

Yeah it was horrible. The worst part is CA. has a thing where even a misdemeanor can revoke your gun rights for 10 years if it's deemed violent. So in my case even though I'm not a convicted felon I can't own guns. So not only was I a victim that tried to defend himself from a thug that threatened me first I now can't protect my home/family from intruders or threats if they come in the future. I'm still worried the other party will do something to me too. It's a bad deal either way you cut it.

 

[pipsters]

Yeah it was horrible. The worst part is CA. has a thing where even a misdemeanor can revoke your gun rights for 10 years if it's deemed violent. So in my case even though I'm not a convicted felon I can't own guns. So not only was I a victim that tried to defend himself from a thug that threatened me first I now can't protect my home/family from intruders or threats if they come in the future. I'm still worried the other party will do something to me too. It's a bad deal either way you cut it.

I'll be honest I would probably seriously consider moving out of state in your situation. CA is a very pretty state but its laws are just stupid.

Monday morning quarter backing the incident, maybe a good approach would be to move the car and call the cops at the same time. Appease the lady but the cops deal with her, not you.

 

[Jasoninaz]

That situation ***** but honestly if someone had said that to me I'd have the gf call 911, be the best witness I can while leaving. Id have my hand on my 45 though

 

[GoBlue]

Sounds like one of our Detroit residents was traveling south for the Holidays! I sit back and enjoy the show when things like this happen up here...and they do all the time. Most enjoyable way to handle it is to call the cops and enjoy the tazer show when she got tranq'ed. She pulled a gun on me...she would have gotten a one way ticket back the ghetto on a slab.

The thing about carrying a gun...is that it gives you options. Its really just another tool. Just because you have it, does not mean you have to use it...but it gives you options you otherwise would not have. I have been carrying for over 10 years and have never needed to draw thank God. I would never want to be faced with the decision to end a life. A concealed gun is an awesome responsibility and i often need to remind myself of that. I have been carrying for so long, a handgun has become like a cell phone to me...just something i don leave home without. I am very thankful however that i have the right and the ability to protect myself and my loved ones if the situation ever arises.

At the end of the day...you did the right thing. You got yourself and your girlfriend out of the situation and everybody lives to talk about it!

 

[Al Bundy]

But yes I think after when I have some cash saved up im going to take the proper classes and buy a CCW, I think im prepared to have one now.

Question tho, I dont want to shoot anyone if I dont have to I was thinking about getting a revolver with some big rounds but I was thinking about adding a flashlight, here is my logic If I felt threatened and needed to draw it I could turn on the flashlight (would get a very bright one) telling them to back down and allowing me to get away without having to shoot. Or would that just aggravate the situation?

Don't bother getting a gun unless you're prepared to use it. You really don't sound like you would be.

 

[GoBlue]

Bundy is absolutely correct. If you pull a gun, use it...end of story. Be damn good and sure your ready to carry around the burden of ending a life though. Not a small decision. A gun is the absolute last resort. I.E someone is going to die right now at arms length...you or them. You dont kill them...your dead.

Do not pull it and wave it around. Thats a good way to get your *** shot. You want to scare someone...throw a rock at them or spray them with mace

 

[BBQ&Love]

OP, forget getting a gun. Because of your current mental processes, it will increase the danger to you. I ain't knocking you. Just telling you the truth for your own protection.

 

[Toolhorder]

OP, forget getting a gun. Because of your current mental processes, it will increase the danger to you. I ain't knocking you. Just telling you the truth for your own protection.

Yeah I agree, if the OP froze at the threat (I'm not knocking him for it, it's a human reaction) the gun isn't going to help him.

I can tell you in my case I just snapped into defense mode without any thinking. I was an IDPA junkie so my hobby was also my training for a situation like I was in. If you do get a CCW and carry I would recommend finding a local IDPA match and joining in. You can't get muscle memory without constant practice and you want to hit your target as well that also comes with practice.

 

[larryq]

You did the right thing. All I would suggest now is contacting the gas station for the tapes and letting the police know what happened. This chick is a stick of dynamite waiting to go off. Who knows what happens to the grandma who inadvertently "takes" her parking spot at the local supermarket?

Crying out loud you were getting gas and suddenly a thunderbolt starts screaming about guns and disrespecting her. Who in their right mind would escalate that if they had any alternative at all?

The problem is once you pull your gun proving you felt like you were in danger isn't so easy when the other party starts lying to the police. It happened to me and it was a horrible experience.

This is an excellent warning. The very _best_ thing that could have happened if you confronted her was you tackling her, giving her some bruises as she went down, the gf calling 911 (and cops showing up fast-- no guarantee of *that*) all the while this psychopath screams ****** murder and threatens a lawyer or how her thug boyfriend and his posse will get even. You're then looking at a lawsuit, her word against yours (you probably win, but after how much $$?) or looking over your shoulder for months for the guy with a gun wanting you for dissing his woman. Who needs that?

It'd be even worse if you had a gun and shot her in self defense. Heaven help you if she didn't have a gun after all, but assuming she did, again either she's dead and her family is after you for everything you own (plus the gangster boyfriend revenge scenario, times 10) or she's wounded and swearing that she never said a word to anyone, and Al Sharpton and the news cameras are camped 24x7 on your lawn. Walking was smart.

 

[USMCdodge]

Im not a violent person nor would I even think about hitting a woman until someone starts talking about hurting me or someone I love especially with a weapon. If I were right there next to her I would have gotten in trouble for choking her out or breaking her jaw when she started going through her car.

You did right by getting out of there but you should have gotten her plate number and called the cops.

 

[HarleyArley]

Yeah I agree, if the OP froze at the threat (I'm not knocking him for it, it's a human reaction) the gun isn't going to help him.

I can tell you in my case I just snapped into defense mode without any thinking. I was an IDPA junkie so my hobby was also my training for a situation like I was in. If you do get a CCW and carry I would recommend finding a local IDPA match and joining in. You can't get muscle memory without constant practice and you want to hit your target as well that also comes with practice.

That's what I consider the biggest problem with using IPDA as training. There aren't any "walk away" scenarios in IDPA. The pistol is always the solution. It sounds like you got in that mindset and carried it off the range.

If you could get a high score in an IDPA match for getting through the day without drawing or firing your pistol, it wouldn't be nearly as much fun, but far better self defense training.

I do 75% of my practice hands on target. Practice getting seperation and fire from retention. Barring some bizzare situation where a more proactive defense is appropriate, unless and until things reach arms length, I'm backing away, looking for a way out of the situation. Last thing I want to do is pull the trigger.

Only exception is a displayed knife. Those things scare the **** out if me and you aint getting near me with one.

Thanks for sharing your experience. Again, sorry to hear you had to fight such charges and are dealing with the restrictions from the misdemeaneor.

 

[HarleyArley]

Bundy is absolutely correct. If you pull a gun, use it...end of story. Be damn good and sure your ready to carry around the burden of ending a life though. Not a small decision. A gun is the absolute last resort. I.E someone is going to die right now at arms length...you or them. You dont kill them...your dead.

Do not pull it and wave it around. Thats a good way to get your *** shot. You want to scare someone...throw a rock at them or spray them with mace

Truer words never spoken.

Though it really hurts me to agree with a Michigan fan

Go Buckeyes!

 

[Super Mech]

I would have drenched her in gas and killed it with fire.

I own a gas station and have seen this flame thrower **** done before. I always said to myself if i was ever in a situation at a gas pump that would be my line of defense. I'd like to see an ******* fire a gun when they are soaked in gas. ****** animals.

 

[bgott]

I"ve played the streets and spent a few years repo'ing out of the projects. I have dealt with that mouthy ghetto **** before. She saw your lily white girlfriend and decided to have some fun. I'd have walked out of the store and seen what was going on and crawled up her *** and festered for a while. Back in the day before I had attachable assets and a nice vehicle, and before there was video cameras everywhere, she would have had a Barden bumper backed over her hood. Then again, I'm 6'4" and 280 pounds and am rather ugly, I don't know if that would work for you or not.

 

[Provincial]

Have any of you thought that she was looking for a confrontation to get out of control? Think about it - black woman sees the man go into the store, starts harassing the white woman without provication, escalates the dialog when the white man returns and trys to be reasonable. She was looking to make the man take physical action by making the gun threat. She never had a gun, and when the lawyers stepped in would have denied making any statement like that. I'll bet if you find out who she is, she has a record of suing whites. It's a good living if you know how to manipulate the system.

Always back off from a confrontation if there is a way out. Modern society screws you if you don't. Not fair, but that is just how it is.

 

[DARKSCOPE001]

Thanks everyone for the replys, I think im going to skip the ccw for now. I dont think i could ever bring myself to actually shoot someone and i think i would draw it at the wrong time.

My gf, stepdad ,and I have all agreed that perhaps its just better to pay the extra pennies and go to a slightly better part of town. this UDF has a bad habbit of attracting rifraf but normally they dont come out till night.

Funny side story. GF and I were at mcdonalds acrost the street (also a huge rifraf collecting point, white, black, yellow they are all bad news on this end of town not singling out any one race) Was sitting at the trafic light acrost the street from the UDF wanting to turn left, There was a paddy waggon getting some fuel. seemed like UDF was rather empty.

Then as soon as the wagon rolled off it was like worms out of the woodwork. Crawling out of bushes driving in at all angles right one cue they all showed up. strange but whatever, I dont think im going to return to that UDF for a long time its not the first confrontation i have had but it was the worst.

Thanks everyone
Sean Scott

 

[nomad69]

All ya need.

 

[sbebenelli]

This is why I have a concealed weapons permit.

 

[kxxr]

What about your $20?

 

[DARKSCOPE001]

What about your $20?

Oh I got my gas but just barely. She said she was gona get a gun right as the pump finished.

 

[ng8264723]

Although I might have done the tackling thing. I think you made the right decision. I would like to knock her teeth in but in the end you would suffer,