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120v 1.8hp trips CB close to panel, but not further away, electrical q's

MrMark

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My compressor has a 15 amp rating on the motor, so 125% of 15 amp would be 18.** give or take, correct?

OK, you are good on that. But, technically, the NEC works of motor HP tables to get FLA. It does not allow you to just use nameplate rating. This is a little complicated for you at this point on the NEC tables. But, the amp clamp would really tell the tale safety wise for this particular motor.
 
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MrMark

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Can't you run that thing off 240? Isn't it convertible? It would run better if you didn't need to move it around, that would be the way to go.

Use the two pole HOM breaker, same wire, except now half the current on that wire. Much better design. You are right there at the panel.
 
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pipsters

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Can't you run that thing off 240? Isn't it convertible? It would run better if you didn't need to move it around, that would be the way to go.

Use the two pole HOM breaker, same wire, except now half the current on that wire. Much better design. You are right there at the panel.

Yes I could do that technically. However I bought the 120v compressor because I like to use it around back as well. It's a horizontal compressor so easily moved. Going 240v kinda defeated the purpose of buying the 120v compressor.
 

MrMark

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I understand. You might just want to convert that and keep it in place and buy the Porter Cable Pancake (a very good unit) for small stuff around back. That's what I did anyway.
 
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pipsters

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Back a few years ago I saw a SpeedAir 240v 17 cfm 20 gal compressor on craigslist for $300. I passed as I didn't have 240v in my garage. Looking back I should've bought that compressor, it was practically brand new and only 1.5 hours away from me. I've been searching for something similar since.

I think if I were to use a 240v unit, I would sell my current 120v one and get something similar to that SpeedAir. I have no desire for a large 60 or 80 gal tank if I can find a compressor that will put out 15-20 cfm in a smaller package.

I'll be doing trim work in my house here soon enough, I'm not sure I want to snake 3/8" hose from my garage, so I might pickup a pancake w/ guns then.
 

sberry

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Only reason to upgrade is if you really need more air, I wouldnt buy a pancake to reach out to do some trim work unless I was contractor, would use a hose or keep the unit you already have.
 

pstemari

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Once an NFPA code is enacted into law it loses copyright protection.

I'm looking at http://bulk.resource.org/codes.gov/or_electrical_2011.pdf, section 310.15 and 430.52, and what I gather is that you're allowed to use a breaker rated higher than the motor load rating up to the indicated load factors, but you have to use the bigger wire along with it, and that general purpose circuits are limited to 20 amps.

In other words, if the factor for the motor/breaker type combo is 160% and the motor is rated to draw 15 amps, you can use a 25 amp breaker (160% * 15 amps), but you have to use 25 amp capable wiring, which is exactly what I'd expect.

The good thing is that section 310.15 (p 157 of the pdf) says you can use 12 ga wire for 30 amps if it's rated at 90 deg C and one of the listed wire types.
 

theoldwizard1

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I gave up on this thread a while ago, because of all of the confusing posts. I want to publicly thank MrMark for sticking with it and calling BS and explaining the proper solution and citing a reference.

I also like the following
You should put a cover over the unused reptical, like to protect for kids, and get a label on the in use outlet. "Dedicated Outlet, Breaker Sized for Motor Start, not for general use."

Finally, I too would be curious to see an amp clamp reading of that compressor running.
 

PT Doc

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The OP needs to hire an electrician and be done with it.

I would the advice of the forum members here quicker thn some random electrician. Having experience specifically with compressors is key and the many members here have cumulatively more experience than an electrician old unless they work regularly in industrial settings.

I got a tremendous amount of info from forum members when wiring my 240v circuit. When the 8 year journeyman electrician came, he learned a bit from me as a result.
 

mm08822

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The suggestions about reading nameplate FLA's from the motor nameplate and then comparing actual voltages and currents during the start-up and in steady state are right on. I don't recall in any of these threads if your problem was only at start-up or also later while running. I will assume it is only at start-up.

Upon start-up of the motor, while it is not rotating, the only current limiting component is the resistance of the circuit - building wiring, a/c lead cord, and the motor windings. So here's an example for this case - lets say you have 2 ohms total in the above circuit. 120 volts/2 ohms = 60 amps initially at startup. As the motor starts to rotate, inductive reactance builds and the 60 amps reduces to ~12amps. This case only happens if the time-curve of the cb will provide enough time before opening the breaker.

Now lets add the extension cord into the circuit and maybe even go to a different receptacle -further away from a panel and even wired with #14. So this overall circuit has maybe 1 ohm more. 120 volts/ (2+1 ohms) = 40 amps. As the motor starts to rotate, inductive reactance builds and the 40 amps reduces to ~12 amps. This case happens because the time-curve of the cb provides enough time going from 40 to 12, so the breaker doesn't open while the circuit is reducing the start-up current.

Sure changing to a 30 Amp cb fixes this by applying a different time curve to the circuit, but the problem is you will be violating the NEC by protecting a 20 A receptacle with a 30 A cb. The code only allows for increasing breaker sizes on dedicated motor circuits. Dedicated means that there is only a motor connected to that circuit and that is accomplished by hard-wiring the motor into the circuit - meaning there is no receptacle for anyone to conveniently add or change anything in the motor circuit.

Since you need the compressor to be portable, hard-wiring this doesn't work for you.
You could change it over to 240 volts but again this has limitations on portability because you wont find 240 v recepts as easily as 120v recepts.

Since this compressor can plug into a 15 Amp receptacle, it has to have a nameplate FLA of 12 amps or less (continuous) - because no load can exceed 80% of the circuit rating by code. 15A x 80% = 12A. (If it had a 20 Amp plug, the nameplate FLA's would be 16 Amps max.)

Taking voltage and current readings appears to be out of your comfort zone, you can't go much further to get facts about what is actually happening.

Since the design of the compressor is to run reliably on the circuit for which it is designed and tested for, I suspect that the motor is drawing too much current for any of these reasons: starting capacitor is out of spec, start winding has a slight short between wraps (which reduces initial resistance and lowers the inductance), the unloader valve is not fuctioning properly some or all of the time, maybe even the compressor head has issues. Even the supply voltage could be high - once in a while my voltage is 125V-summertime.

You could take the entire compressor to a motor shop and let them look at it but you'll spend a few bucks.
If you really feel compelled to do something yourself, you could open up the motor and read the ratings off of the capacitors (microfarad and working voltage values) and replace them - they're cheap - go to graingers.

But your easiest solution to get rid of the symptoms is to add in the extension cord to the circuit (never thought i'd ever say that!). This way you get a new extension cord to use around the house, no code violations, compressor remains portable, you remain healthy, you save a few bucks without being penny-wise, pound-foolish, and no more time buried into this problem.

So if you do nothing more than add the extension cord and the motor is having issues that could get worse over time, the unit is grounded and it should have internal overload protection built in to shut it down. Then you'll spend some money, since the warranty/return period has already expired.
 
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pipsters

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Sure changing to a 30 Amp cb fixes this by applying a different time curve to the circuit, but the problem is you will be violating the NEC by protecting a 20 A receptacle with a 30 A cb. The code only allows for increasing breaker sizes on dedicated motor circuits. Dedicated means that there is only a motor connected to that circuit and that is accomplished by hard-wiring the motor into the circuit - meaning there is no receptacle for anyone to conveniently add or change anything in the motor circuit.

I'm not 100% sure this is correct. I did some Googlging and found the definition of a dedicated circuit is just one that doesn't share the outlet or circuit with another appliance. You can use an outlet, it does not need to be hard wired.

Do you have a citation from NEMA with your definition?

For example, an electric dryer or stove (like mine in my house) are on a dedicated circuit but uses an outlet and is not hard wired. But a water heater is hard wired on a dedicated circuit.

http://www.mrelectric.com/ResidentialServices/SafetyandSecurity/DedicatedCircuits.aspx

Not an official source, but official sounding:

In electrical wiring, a dedicated circuit is a circuit set up with its own circuit breaker and intended for a single use. In some cases, a receptacle may be wired to the circuit so that it can be connected to an appliance such as a stove or a refrigerator. In other cases, an appliance can be wired directly into the circuit, as is commonly seen with electrical water heaters.

http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-a-dedicated-circuit.htm

Only thing I can think of is to go from a two-plug outlet to one-plug, but that would get rid of the GFCI, and I'm not 100% sure that is code. I'm thinking garages need GFCI. If not that is fine, I can do that, just get a 20 amp one plug outlet and swap it out. Edit, looks like any outlet within 6' of a sink must have a GFCI, so I should be OK swapping it to a regular 1 outlet 20 amp plug, which kinda upsets me because that 20 amp GFCI was expensive!!
 
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mm08822

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Table 210.21(B)(3) of the NEC provides the allowed receptacle ratings and required overcurrent protection combinations. A 30 amp circuit requires a 30 amp receptacle, and would require #10 wire. Once you go to the 30 amp size you are no longer able to use 15 or 20 receptacles-per the code.

Your example of a dryer is as follows: it is on a 40 amp breaker with #8 wire supplying a receptacle rated for 40 amps. The lead cord ito the dryer is also rated for 40 amps. All ampere ratings match up.

Same reasoning for your stove, although that is probably at 50amps.

Your water heater is hard-wired but it is either on a 20amp or 30 amp circuit with either #12 or #10 wires respectively, but this is irrelivant as there is no receptacle used there.

My use of the word "dedicated" was maybe not the best choice here, but the point was to explain that there are a few exceptions within the NEC where the cb size can be increased above typical "pairing" of wire size rating to cb size. This is allowed for motor branch-circuits (refer to article 430 in the NEC) because the cb is used for short circuit protection only and motor overload protection is also provided through other circuit devices. As long as you have a 15 or 20 amp receptacle this does not apply.
 
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pipsters

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Here's the thing. Why would NEMA allow for an exception to oversize the circuit breaker? If there was no exception, you would use a higher rated CB and associated wiring and plug. They are allowing for an exception which to me means the CB only.

Found this:

(D) Motor Circuits Where the overcurrent device consists of an instantaneous trip circuit
breaker or a motor short-circuit protector, as allowed in 430.52, the equipment grounding
conductor size shall be permitted to be based on the rating of the motor overload
protective device but shall not be less than the size shown in Table 250.122.

250.122 indicates wiring required. 20 amp is 12g, 30 amp is 10g. Now, it does say that you are permitted to use the wiring based on the motor overload protective deice. Is that the motor's own internal breaker? To me that means you can upsize the CB but keep the wiring and outlet based upon the motors own breaker.

Hopefully Mr.Mark can chime in here as well.
 
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mm08822

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The exception is allowed to handle the starting in-rush current on motor-branch circuits. You are confusing the issue and trying to apply this special case to a general-purpose branch circuit and the NEC does not allow that.

If you get rid of the 20 amp recept and make everything 30 amp you are meeting the NEC, but then you aren't as readily portable anymore and it isn't a general-purpose branch circuit anymore.

BTW, article 250.122 is an article discussing size of equipment grounding conductors in the NEC. (Also the breakers you have available to fit your panel are not MCP's or IT's.)
 
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pipsters

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OK so you are saying that:

30 amp breaker -> 12g wire -> a single 20 amp 2 plug outlet = not code?

If so where were you earlier in this thread?!?

So, I am only out $2.50 for the breaker. I will go to my original idea (and the one you also suggested) and get a cheap 12g extension cord to plug into my 20 amp outlet. Will this cause any other issues down the road you think? I can't imagine it would, as it would be the same as plugging into an outlet that was say 30' away from the breaker panel.
 

mm08822

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Thats right 30a cb with #12 wire, 20 a recept does not meet code.

Please re-read my first post, something isn't right with the compressor but it could hang in there forever. It's up to you to decide if chasing the root cause is worth more or your time and $. You're way past returning it for exchange.

I just joined this forum a few days ago! LOL!
 
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pipsters

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Yeah first thought it was the starter capacitator, but I don't know enough about this stuff. I will take some pics when I get home in a few days, thanks for the help.
 

bgott

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This might have been mentioned, but, maybe the close recepticle has a defect in it and the one farther away doesn't?
 
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pipsters

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Thats right 30a cb with #12 wire, 20 a recept does not meet code.

Please re-read my first post, something isn't right with the compressor but it could hang in there forever. It's up to you to decide if chasing the root cause is worth more or your time and $. You're way past returning it for exchange.

I just joined this forum a few days ago! LOL!

Here's the capacitors

No idea which one is which. Can you tell which is the starter capacitor? I don't know anything about electricity.

To confirm, current setup is 30 amp breaker, 12 gauge wire, 20 amp recp, and the compressor plugged into that, which apparently is not code.
 

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mm08822

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After looking at the pictures for the caps you took, i went searching for the motor wiring diagram on the marathon electric website and it doesn't come up. Sometimes OEM's hide certain part numbers so only the end producer has access to it and becomes the some source for that part number.

I did however, look at over a few threads for 5KCR49UN239BAY. A few threads related right back to your same compressor problem. Since this seems to be a common problem, I would scrap the idea of replacing caps.
Instead, bite the bullet, change the voltage of the circuit and compressor to 240v. A few did and to no surprise have no more problems. There was even one thread that swapped out the 20a cb for a 30 amp and he showed a pic of his receptacle melting.
This means the mfr should not have sold this unit as a 120 volt unit but rather 240 volt.
 
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pipsters

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Ok thanks guys, if I were to replace the starting cap, should I get something of the exact same value or should I go over/under size? I've never been good at electricity, somehow I stumbled thru my AP Physics class with a B.
 
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pipsters

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After looking at the pictures for the caps you took, i went searching for the motor wiring diagram on the marathon electric website and it doesn't come up. Sometimes OEM's hide certain part numbers so only the end producer has access to it and becomes the some source for that part number.

I did however, look at over a few threads for 5KCR49UN239BAY. A few threads related right back to your same compressor problem. Since this seems to be a common problem, I would scrap the idea of replacing caps.
Instead, bite the bullet, change the voltage of the circuit and compressor to 240v. A few did and to no surprise have no more problems. There was even one thread that swapped out the 20a cb for a 30 amp and he showed a pic of his receptacle melting.
This means the mfr should not have sold this unit as a 120 volt unit but rather 240 volt.

I searched and this thread is the only one that came up. Could you think, I am curious what others have said too.

I'm thinking a 10' or 25' 12 gauge extension cord. Provided this allows the compressor to start without tripping the breaker is there any long term damage that I could do to it? Seems to reason that this would be the same as plugging directly into an outlet that was located 15'-30' away,
 

mm08822

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I was searching on the web, not within garage journal. Sorry for the confusion on that point.
See my reply (#131) about the cord and its effects. Try a 25' cord first. If that doesn't work, return it and get a 50'.
 
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pipsters

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I was searching on the web, not within garage journal. Sorry for the confusion on that point.
See my reply (#131) about the cord and its effects. Try a 25' cord first. If that doesn't work, return it and get a 50'.

Ok thank you
 
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