broke my $135 Hazet socket!

[blackgold]

I used to have some 3 piece Zender wheels... They had a very narrow lug hole that was pretty deep... I couldn't find a socket thin enough that was lined to protect the finish. I ended up taking a standard deep 17mm socket and wrapping it in 3m clear bra material. I had a buddy that gave me a few feet of that. worked great. I do see where that would be nice to have though. Hope it works out. Oh, yes.. shops have overtorqued my lugs many times..
Brian
Brian

 

[gt40mkii]

I wonder what else may have been damaged putting a lug nut on that tight? Wheel stud, wheel, brake rotor?

I've had to deal with over-torqued lugnuts a lot at the race track. First-time racing mechanics can get a little over-zealous when reinstalling wheels...

Over-tightening a little generally won't hurt anything. Over-tightening a lot can.

The torque spec for any fastener is designed to apply a specific amount of stretch to the fastener to lock the threads together and prevent the assembly from loosening. The longer the stressed portion of the fastener is, or the larger the root diameter, the higher the torque value is. The application affects the specified torque as well, as does the method of assembly (type of lubricant used, if any.)

An over-torqued assembly won't damage anything UNLESS you stretch the fastener so much that it undergoes plastic deformation. That is, the fastener stretches so much that it can't return to its original length. You can check for this by running a plain nut (not a lock-nut!) the entire length of the threaded portion of the fastener. If it reaches a spot where it does not turn easily and the threads appear clean and normal, then the fastener has likely stretched and is now junk. Its yield strength is much lower than it was before it stretched.

Tire shops hire workers based on how fast they are, not on how contentious they are. They WILL use an impact to install your lug nuts. They MAY grab a torque stick, or they may not. They MAY grab the right one. They MAY know what the torque spec is for your car in order to choose the right one, but I doubt it.

Look at all the cars on the road with one or more missing lug nuts. The reason? The wheel stud has snapped off because someone stretched it.

I always assume they don't know what they're doing and re-do each lugnut when I get home. Whenever a wheel comes off, I check for stretch.

Oh, and for the race car, impact wrenches are NEVER used on the lug nuts!

 

[Wakefield]

I thought BMW forbids the use of naked air guns to tighten lugs on their cars at their dealers. If that is so seems like AMG/Mercedes would too.
(reason I said "naked" is do they allow torque sticks?)

 

[shanker]

I've been desperately searching for some lug nut sockets to protect my wheels...I've had to resort to using electrical tape, but that still doesnt solve the problem of needing a thin wall, coated socket for better clearance

 

[scottmlew]

Wow, I have spawned a great deal of discussion! Thank you to everyone who defended the "right tool for the job" concept and pointed out how this tool is truly unique, and that there is no other good/reasonable option for working on these wheels with impact tools. It would not be reasonable to reply to each post, but a few select replies...

Sometime before the IR failed to take off the nut, it was time to stop using a special thin wall no mar socket and switch to ... HF.

If the nut doesn't come loose after a few seconds, it is usually time for plan b in my experience. Those sleeved sockets aren't as strong, as you found, I have always disliked that style wheel, style over function, give me enough room for a fullsize socket. Did the dealer get the lugs loose for you?

Lesson learned. And I should have mentioned how it ended up coming off in the original post. I ended up using a shallow chrome SO 17mm socket on the SN25A. I did not use a cheater, but I was literally standing on it. I was amazed that the breaker held up...I had a towel over the joint just in case it broke to contain flying parts. I guess this "proves" that SO is better than Hazet! ;-)

I wonder what else may have been damaged putting a lug nut on that tight? Wheel stud, wheel, brake rotor?

Oh, that was my question for the dealer. I was really upset, there is just no excuse for this by anyone, even a subcontractor. All "seems" OK, but it's of course really hard to tell. (btw, no wheel studs on this car, it has lug bolts -- but your point certainly still stands)

To the O/P, it looks like you over stressed the socket, most likely by hammering at it with an underpowered impact, what line pressure are you running, and what size hose?

The impact has never seemed underpowered, but I'm not really sure how to tell (anyone?). I'm running 3/8" line, I believe 30 ft long, and 90psi (and I set it erring on the high side).

No need to be elitist with the HF recommendation, after all, why not just suggest that he arc welds an extension to the lug, torches the rim off, or sells the car instead of using the correct sized tool?

Had to comment on this since it left me literally LOL

An over-torqued assembly won't damage anything UNLESS you stretch the fastener so much that it undergoes plastic deformation. That is, the fastener stretches so much that it can't return to its original length. You can check for this by running a plain nut (not a lock-nut!) the entire length of the threaded portion of the fastener. If it reaches a spot where it does not turn easily and the threads appear clean and normal, then the fastener has likely stretched and is now junk. Its yield strength is much lower than it was before it stretched.

This is great information -- thanks. I will indeed check the lug bolts as soon as I can.

 

[WHT]

Yeah, it seems it was "aggressively tightened" by a MB dealership. And yup, that's the (discounted) price from Chadstoolbox.

Maybe, buy some quality US made tools at a fair price and forget the hype. For some reason, people think tools made in other countries are better than our best tools (and, they are not better).

 

[diesel research]

Maybe, buy some quality US made tools at a fair price and forget the hype. For some reason, people think tools made in other countries are better than our best tools (and, they are not better).

So who else sells a socket that deep with the rim protector and lug protector?



I did some checking, and with some minor modifications, snap on SIMMF17A ($24) could be made to work. It is not long enough, so an extension will be needed. Some padding may be needed inside to protect lug cap if you are concerned about that. Does need to have a protective sleeve or other material added. It is thin enough to allow about 2mm of coating or sleeve material.

Unlike the HF rimsaver socket, the body is straight the entire way, so you don't have to chuck it up in a lathe or do any other machining. Yes, it is possible to machine the HF socket or most others, although that ay or may not ruin the socket.

As far as off the shelf, well, I don't see any .

 

[oldtools]

What is the point of having a sleeved socket if the sleeve doesn't even reach the edge of the wheel? 15ft of extensions isn't going to change that.

You can see in the picture that the HF drive end on that 17mm is fatter than the sleeve, so it might not even fit.

Theen it appears to not be deep enough and doesn't have that lug cap protector he wants.

Once again a budget tool retailer that doesn't even sell the right sized tool.

No need to be elitist with the HF recommendation, after all, why not just suggest that he arc welds an extension to the lug, torches the rim off, or sells the car instead of using the correct sized tool?

(that socket lists at over 5" long with over 4-1/4" of sleeve and 3/4" length for drive end. That means the nut is approx 3-1/2" down inside the hole, which means your above mentioned socket wouldn't even touch the lug nut, or maybe barely grab the edge and destroy the lugnut)....

The spec say it is a thin wall socket. The plastic sleeve is slightly larger than the drive side so it should go in with an extension (unless the sleeve is too thick).

 

[jensputzier]

I bought the 904SLG-17 for impact use with my AMG wheels. The second time I used it, I broke it! I was hammering on a bolt with my 2135Ti and then switched to my SO SN25A breaker bar and cracked it by hand! What horrible luck Hopefully warranty replacement via A&E Hand Tools (the North America Hazet distributor) will be smooth.

I post this mainly as an "FYI", and also to show that even the best tools can fail prematurely.

Hi,

this socket is 73.10 Euro (95.00 US$) plus 12.00 Euro (16 US$) for shipping. If used correctly it should not break. If you need any help with the warranty you are welcome to ship it to me and I will contact the factory directly rather than you having to deal with the importer.

Regards
Jens

 

[diesel research]

The spec say it is a thin wall socket. The plastic sleeve is slightly larger than the drive side so it should go in with an extension (unless the sleeve is too thick).

The pictures show differently.

Note the drive end is actually larger than sleeve.

 

[shoturtle]

maybe its a fake

It could be, hazet's sites posted there are fakes out there of their products.

 

[IanG]

Hi,

this socket is 73.10 Euro (95.00 US$) plus 12.00 Euro (16 US$) for shipping. If used correctly it should not break. If you need any help with the warranty you are welcome to ship it to me and I will contact the factory directly rather than you having to deal with the importer.

Regards
Jens

I assume the 73.10 includes VAT. Does he need to pay the VAT if it is getting shipped to the US? VAT in Germany is 19% I think.

 

[Monte]

I assume the 73.10 includes VAT. Does he need to pay the VAT if it is getting shipped to the US? VAT in Germany is 19% I think.

the 73.10 is the net price without tax. If you import something from germany you don´t have to pax the tax.

 

[pipsters]

I think quite honestly if my car required a $135 socket to remove the wheels, I would quickly sell it. No telling what other sort of tools are required to be used on it.

 

[Robbie UK]

Quite a debate when it is the right tool for the job. Still seems more likely to me that the socket had a slight flaw when made and it let go early in its life. I'm sure they will provide a new one under the warranty.

 

[Skyline]

You could never get a lug nut that tight on my Infiniti....the stud would snap at about 130ft lbs. MANY modern cars use fairly fragie studs (I guess to reduce weight, but maybe just because the bean counters made the call), and when they give a torque spec..they mean business.

I finally found a local tire shop that uses torque wrenches on EVERY tire install. The manager looks up the spec, sets the torque wrench, and hands it to the tech with the repair order. But before that, I would bring my own torque wrench to the shop with me.

 

[oldtools]

The pictures show differently.

Note the drive end is actually larger than sleeve.

You are right, the drive side is bigger than the sleeve on the 17mm.

 

[oldtools]

You could never get a lug nut that tight on my Infiniti....the stud would snap at about 130ft lbs. MANY modern cars use fairly fragie studs (I guess to reduce weight, but maybe just because the bean counters made the call), and when they give a torque spec..they mean business.

I finally found a local tire shop that uses torque wrenches on EVERY tire install. The manager looks up the spec, sets the torque wrench, and hands it to the tech with the repair order. But before that, I would bring my own torque wrench to the shop with me.

The torque specific by manufacturer is usually for dry (no lube). Alot of the places I go to put lube on the studs. Even if they put the correct torque, they still overstress the studs. If lube is used, it should be torqued to about 70% of dry torque.

 

[Rico.]

Maybe we could put a little bit of the blame on the car manufactures...

I mean would it really ruin the aesthetics or the structural integrity of
the wheel if they just made the hole the wheel nut goes into 1-2mm
larger in diameter....

 

[billymade]

jensputzier, what technically, is the Hazet warranty? I couldn't find it on their website and USA based Hazet dealers are saying 6 months... what is it really?

Can you explain the Germany warranty viewpoint; compared the "lifetime" that we experience here in the USA? Obviously, two cultural differences.... let us know what the German view is.

 

[Monte]

http://www.samstagsales.com/warranty.htm

Hazet: "We replace any tool showing material defects and/or faulty workmanship."

 

[PinkLinc]

The torque specific by manufacturer is usually for dry (no lube).... If lube is used, it should be torqued to about 70% of dry torque.

What makes you say that oldtools? First time I've heard that one. Anyone else care to confirm or deny that statement? Usually and about 70% seems pretty vague when addressing torque specs.

 

[0.511MeV]

What makes you say that oldtools? First time I've heard that one. Anyone else care to confirm or deny that statement? Usually and about 70% seems pretty vague when addressing torque specs.

You are right that it is pretty vague, but the concept is correct. A threaded fastener takes much less installed torque to achieve a given amount of installed stress when lubricated.

Just how much less depends on the lubrication, the fastener, thread fit, length of threads, etc. Usually you can find these things from the fastener manufacturer in the form of a graph.

 

[oldtools]

What makes you say that oldtools? First time I've heard that one. Anyone else care to confirm or deny that statement? Usually and about 70% seems pretty vague when addressing torque specs.

http://www.aa1car.com/library/procut02.htm

 

[MattT]

So- None of you guys researched the socket before posting , in many cases , critical responses ??

I don't need to research anything to know most folks can't out-torque a properly functioning 2135Ti with a 2 foot breaker bar

Special tools are a mo-fo!

Yeah. You're literally working for tools on the first use, or the first few uses if you're unlucky. Then hope you get enough repeat work to actually make something on the investment.

The impact has never seemed underpowered, but I'm not really sure how to tell (anyone?). I'm running 3/8" line, I believe 30 ft long, and 90psi (and I set it erring on the high side).

You're probably loosing around 20psi on that hose assembly depending on what fittings you're using. And if you're using the reg that was supplied on a homeowner compressor it's likely undersized too. If it's set to 90psi static it probably ain't maintaining near that with the gun running.

So yeah you probably ain't getting near the 90 working psi the gun needs to make rated output.

Maybe we could put a little bit of the blame on the car manufactures...

I mean would it really ruin the aesthetics or the structural integrity of
the wheel if they just made the hole the wheel nut goes into 1-2mm
larger in diameter....

The manufacturers are in cahoots with the tool companies. They deliberately design **** that requires special tools so we have to keep buying them.

 

[oldtools]

http://www.permatex.com/Resource_auto_faq.htm

"...Does Permatex suggest applying anti-seize to lubricate lug nuts when installing or tightening the nuts?

Permatex does not recommend the use of any anti-seize product on wheel studs. Although anti-size has been used for years by many people on this application, there is the potential for over torquing and therefore higher clamp loads and potentially dangerous bolt stretch. Because of the lubricity of anti-seize, there is a tendency to over tighten because of the ease with which the nut will bear down on the lug. For this reason, even if you try to torque the nuts to factory specs, the clamp load may become too high depending on the type of bolt, size and manufacturer..."

 

[oldtools]

See page 2 on torque reduction if anti-seize is used.

http://www.imperialsupplies.com/pdf/A_FastenerTorqueCharts.pdf

 

[Hiball]

LOL At this Thread and some of the Membership..

1. OP shows a broken specialty tool with $$$ Price Tag.
2. Immediately Member response claiming OP is High, Idiotic for owning such a High Priced Socket.
3. You guessed it.. Harbor Freight comes into the thread. We even get links and pictures.
4. Membership finally figures out that maybe there is a reason this Socket is deemed a "Specialty" Tool
5. Knowledge is Power and Clearly it cant be bought at HF.

Good Luck to the OP, while i dont own any Hazet tools im no Stranger to specialty tools and there importance to preserving Fasteners and there Integrity.

 

[Keep]

You could look into insulated sockets, I know that Knipex makes some for electrical work.

Or you could take a chrome socket and buy some "plastidip"

As to the cost, $135 is pittance compared to the cost of that car!

Hopefully they will just warranty the socket and it won't matter!!

Good luck.

 

[mtkst19]

fwiw, all the time i run into merc wheels that use the countersunk lug bolts that are frozen into the hubs they just seem to want to stick. I use a thinwall impact socket and extension w/ breaker bar to get them free. On some occasions, i have an old 17mm socket and extension i will put on the lug bolt, and smack the extenstion w. a hammer. this hitting/shock will help free up the stuck lugs. Make sure you dont hit the wheel face obviously-- dont want to be buying a customer a new wheel.

I can appreciate owning the right tool for the job though. At same time you can accomplish same results w/ less w/o sacrificing quality. Kinda like mounting tires. new machines w/ fancy arms etc to not scratch the rim. You can do it w/ a single arm machine if you know what to do. Yet with that said, im a tool ***** and love me some specialty tools too.

 

[Danglerb]

Not hard to find a no mar deep socket for a BMW, google finds a few around $30, but I didn't notice any as fancy as the Hazet.

Socket has 3 cracks, not likely going to be seen as a manufacturing defect.

TSB on my 1999 Lincoln for shimmy in the front end, over tightened lug nuts warp the rotors.

 

[Skin]

Socket has 3 cracks, not likely going to be seen as a manufacturing defect.

If a socket with properly treated steel failed from stress it shouldnt crack in 3 different spots.

 

[diesel research]

Not hard to find a no mar deep socket for a BMW, google finds a few around $30, but I didn't notice any as fancy as the Hazet.

BMW is not same thing as an AMG mercedes...

 

[Moose-LandTran]

http://www.ebay.de/itm/HAZET-Kraft-...2426?pt=Kfz_Handwerkzeuge&hash=item51904109ca

Hehehehehehehe!

 

[jwith68]

Not here to comment on the whole $135 socket issue, it is what it is. I will relate an experience of mine concerning tight lug nuts, though. We have a 2003 Expedition that we bought in 2004 with 30k miles on it. First time I went to do a tire rotation, rear lug nuts came off exceptionally hard. The fronts turned loose normally. The Expedition was not yet 2 years old at that point. I did not have a good air impact at that time, so I went and borrowed my FIL's Chicago Pneumatic (don't recall the model, supposedly ~800 ft*lb break-loose capable.) Good air supply. After considerable hammering, 9 of the 12 rears were off, and 3 wouldn't budge.

So, out came an old S-K breaker bar and a 3 ft cheater pipe - nothing doing. Grabbed a piece of pipe almost 6 ft long. 2 more came loose, each with what can only be described as a loud snap. Last one, I had nearly all my 225 lbs on the end of that 6' pipe, and the drive tang on the breaker bar shattered. Got another breaker bar, an old Wright this time. Again, nearly all my weight on the end of the pipe, and bouncing a bit. It let loose with a snap loud enough to be a gunshot. Amazingly, no apparent damage to either the lugs or the studs.

I don't know what idiot put those on there or what he used. I torque them to 110 lb*ft as recommended, and will use just a tiny dab of grease on the threads if they seem completely dry. They come off with a few just a few hits from the NitroCat I have now, with ~90 psi at the gun. I do have a nice, new, shiny S-K breaker bar to show for my trouble.

 

[e30bradley]

so whats the secret? How do you actually break Hazet tools? ha that *****.. I think it had to be defective.

 

[e30bradley]

What makes you say that oldtools? First time I've heard that one. Anyone else care to confirm or deny that statement? Usually and about 70% seems pretty vague when addressing torque specs.

so if I'm putting on lugnuts that are supposed to be 100 ft-lbs and a put grease/ anti seize on them I only torque them to 70 ft-lbs?

 

[89GLH]

Does MB recommend anti-seize in this case? Or being that it's MB, do they have a specific variety they use (read: Mercedes Benz Anti Seize Lubricant)?

Also, are these lug nuts or lug studs like BMW has? I helped a friend of mine convert his 1995 M3 to studs because the alignment pin was a PITA to put wheels back on.

 

[scottmlew]

Socket has 3 cracks, not likely going to be seen as a manufacturing defect.

Where are you seeing 3 cracks? I see only 2.

Does MB recommend anti-seize in this case? Or being that it's MB, do they have a specific variety they use (read: Mercedes Benz Anti Seize Lubricant)?

They do not make that recommendation, AFAIK.

Also, are these lug nuts or lug studs like BMW has? I helped a friend of mine convert his 1995 M3 to studs because the alignment pin was a PITA to put wheels back on.

This has lug bolts, as in, there are NO studs sticking out from the wheel/rotor assembly on the car. I use the wonderful tool from Ultimate Garage to assist with reinstallation and it makes things so much easier. IMHO, it's a must have tool when your car has lug bolts, especially when you're working around pricey brake components.

 

[billymade]

Any update on the warranty? What process are you going through to get it handled? Inquiring minds want to know! It may also help other Hazet owners; in future warranty claims...