WTF do we have to do to prevent Impact Gun overkill?

[HoosierBuddy]

So...

My son (18) got this used Mazda. Yesterday, I went out there and looked at it with him so he'd know how to change a tire on it if he needed to. We got out the emergency tools in the trunk. The lug wrench is about 8-inches long.

I'm 6'3, 260 and have lifted weights on and off for the last 20 years. I couldn't budge the lug nuts with his lug wrench. So...I got a 3/8 long handled ratchet and a "gorrilla" thin wall 13/16" socket and tried that. I still couldn't budge the nuts.

Then I tried a cheater on the ratchet and immediately broke the ratchet (My bad...I know).

Then I tried my IR "ThunderGun" and a thinwalled socket and that got 4 out of 5 lug nuts loosened on the first wheel. The 5th wouldn't budge even with the impact turned to high and my air at 90PSI.

Then I got a long 1/2" breaker bar AND a cheater bar and got the last lug nut loose.

Then we tightened them all up again by hand.

MY POINT HERE IS...WTF???

These lugs were installed by the Mazda dealer when they replaced the wheels on the car before reselling it. This is AT LEAST the 10th time I've run into this situation over the years where a garage uses an impact to install lug nuts KNOWING FULL WELL there is NO WAY you can get those nuts back off with the OEM emergency tools.

Sigh.

Is this just me....or has this happened to you too? What should we do to stop it?

I've tried talking to a couple of garages before and they treat me like I'm just looking for something to complain about.

This is one of the (many) reasons I almost NEVER let a garage touch any of my vehicles if I can help it.

Phil

 

[Matt018]

I know, On my truck i have to use a breaker bar with a 5 foot pipe, And even then i'm off the ground pushing down on it. I run them down with the impact and tighten them with a breaker bar on the ground. It pisses me off, but what can you do?

 

[lennoxlennox]

phone the dealership up and ask them what type of techs they have if they can't even torque lug nuts to spec

i don't even use torque sticks, in fact i refuse to buy them, but do it the old fashion way with my torque wrench

 

[APEowner]

That's interesting that people are still having that problem. I don't know anybody in the industry that still uses a straight impact to install lug nuts and I know a lot of techs.

 

[rsanter]

if they were that tight do you think that the studs should be replaced to prevent a problem in the future??????

I either do it myself or specify that they use a torque wrench...

bob

 

[Zrexxer]

phone the dealership up and ask them what type of techs they have if they can't even torque lug nuts to spec

They could be torqued to spec, and still impossible to remove with the tools that come with the vehicle.

My truck with factory alloy wheels specs 140 ft-lb on the lugs, and you sure as hell are going to have trouble getting those loose with the factory lug wrench.

I now just carry a 24" Matco breaker bar and a deep socket in the truck for flats.

 

[keithwvd]

I hate when shops do that, on a friends' tiburon we had to use a breaker bar and a 6 foot pipe to get a few of them off

I help out at a shop, and to be honest we usually just use an impact but turn it down to where it's possible to get them off by hand. It takes 2 seconds to adjust it, I don't know how anyone would be too lazy to do that

 

[bobcatdan]

I don't know why, but sometime it seems that alum wheel lug nuts will just get really tight even if propper torqued.

 

[Squankum]

I thought this had passed away in the biz ten years ago because of brake rotor warpage. Geez Louise, there are some nitwits out there running loose.

 

[cderalow]

factory spec on a mazda is likley 80 ft-lb, just like 99% of the other standard passenger cars.

I hand tighten mine with a ratchet in the air, and use an old school beam style to torque mine on the ground.

 

[thooks]

WTF do we have to do to prevent Impact Gun overkill?

Start doing everything you can yourself. I know this does not apply to your case specifically, but dealership service departments seem to be hurting for business all around.

What's worse is they can't figure out why.

 

[ultimateplayer]

As someone pointed out above, how do they expect you to get these parts off with OEM emergency equipment in an emergency?

With a flat tire on the side of the highway, trying to get the lugs off when they are overtorqued puts you in danger for even longer. It seems like catastrophic events are the only reason companies make process improvements.

 

[clueless]

i deal with a lot of that with semis at work,road service puts tires on,hammer them down with 1" impact till they dont turn no more.hey douchebag,450 ft lbs!and then they wonder why im replacing stretched studs and stripped nuts.. and on top of that heating lugnuts to get them off!!

the other thing is the test light probers in wires and weatherpack connectors.. love to grind the points right off there test lights!!

 

[JASTECH]

I agree, if ever catch them torquing mine w/impact they will be replacing all studs/nuts, then I will stand and make sure it's done correctly. I never thought about the dealer/garage impacting them on. Just the other day my dad was going to rotate tires on Mom's van. He used a Rigid air compressor I gave him and a Napa impact from 20+ yrs ago I gave him and could not budge the nuts! They had just got the van back from garage. I think these torque spec's need to be abided by for safety as all are tested via the spec's correct?

 

[nitrohog]

I've had similar experiences, Sears was the worst offender that I've had though. I bought $700 worth of tires off of them and paid for their road hazard program only to get the car back with two broken center caps and way overtorqued lug nuts. They also didn't even seat the socket all the way on so half way down the lug nut they left a ridge that you can't get a socket past and destroyed a few of the chrome overlays. When I brought it back for tire repair I brought it to their attention and specified that they torque them with a torque wrench to 100 foot pounds only to have a wheel loosen up on the way home, I put a full turn on 3/4 of the lug nuts with my torque wrench...

 

[rlitman]

Start doing everything you can yourself. I know this does not apply to your case specifically, but dealership service departments seem to be hurting for business all around.

This is the primary reason I started doing everything myself.
Still, I don't own a tire changer (although I do have a balancer, so my lugnuts get hand torqued every time I rotate the tires).
So, when I'm getting new tires, I've taken to leaving a HF 1/2" torque wrench with the correct socket, already set to the correct setting, on the driver's seat.
And the quy who writes up my sale, understands that if they want my business again, that tool WILL be used. So far, it's worked the last 3 times.

 

[csmitty]

I hate having people work on my stuff. If I had a balancer i'd love to do that myself. But everytime I take mine in to get rotated and balanced I'm usually right outside the bay door. Usually ask if I can check the brakes out. Make sure they get the right tires where. And that they get the torque wrench out.

 

[chris142]

I had a Mexican tire store here bust a couple nuts off and pulled the other 3 with his impact. I had a tire mounted and the monkey kept hammering on the nuts. Of course they told me in broken english that my studs were bad.

 

[HoosierBuddy]

This is the primary reason I started doing everything myself.
Still, I don't own a tire changer (although I do have a balancer, so my lugnuts get hand torqued every time I rotate the tires).
So, when I'm getting new tires, I've taken to leaving a HF 1/2" torque wrench with the correct socket, already set to the correct setting, on the driver's seat.
And the quy who writes up my sale, understands that if they want my business again, that tool WILL be used. So far, it's worked the last 3 times.

There's the answer I was looking for.

Sad that you have to take it to that extreme....but that is a good way of proactively making the point that you expect them to do the job the way you want it done.

Excellent pointer!

Phil

 

[geologist]

I bought a 3/4" drive 40" breaker bar from Princess Auto to carry along side my lug wrench. Comes in handy, especially if you have to help a stranded motorist with a problem similar to the over tightening you've experienced.

 

[Cobra_Bob]

Has a somewhat similar issue last night. Went to lower the suspension on the front end of my Cobra and I could not get the front left wheel off. The wheels are Halibrand knockoffs (a spinner instead of lug nuts). Nothing scarier than taking a whack at a small spinner in the middle of your expensive wheel with a lead hammer. Finally came off after about 50 hits. Consumed about ¼ of the lead hammer head.

 

[Packard V8]

Check garage sales and pawn shops for a 1/2" beam torque wrench. Get an extension and an appropriate socket. Physically verify the socket will fit inside the wheel indents and the extension is long enough. Keep one set with the spare in every vehicle. Best investment you'll make.

Sooner or later, you have to let the tire shop do what they do. As soon as the vehicle is home, loosen and retighten each lug nut yourself.

A while back, there was a vociferous argument here about whether to use anti-sieze on lug nuts. I've been doing it for fifty years on at least fifty POVs with no problems and never a stuck lug nut. With anti-sieze, I do drop the torque from 90# to 80#.

jack vines

 

[Holt]

I'm no mechanic so when my brakes out that was beyond my skill level I took it to the only place open around here on Sunday. Tires plus.... Usually I don't like them but when the mechanic put my tires back on he didn't use a impact at all. I watched as he grabbed it off the shelf. Set the torque and go around to all lug nuts and set the torque on them. I was pretty happy with that. Then about a year later I needed a oil change and took it to Jensen. They offered to rotate my tires for free and later came out and said the couldn't get Front passanger side tire off with a impact wrench and would have to use a breaker bar to take it off and warned me they could break a stud. I told them not to worry about rotating tires. Couple months later that tire got a small leak and needed patched. Jacked the car up. Put on my 18 inch braker bar and all lug nuts came loose with moderate strength needed. Take that for what it is worth but I see this as mechanics not getting enough time to do the job properly so the try to use the impact gun as much as they can.

 

[Trucky]

Last time I went to Pep Boys... well lets just say it's the last time I'll ever go there.

Broke a few studs (3). I could hear that damn impact hammering away. No torque sticks or whatever they're called. Appears they just ran through them with the gun at full. I asked who was doing it. Only response? New guy. I ran my car over to National Tire and Battery, told them what BS just happened, and they ran through and checked them all for me. They also put my tires on last year.

I can tell you one thing, NTB is getting my business from now on, and I recommend them when I can. I know for sure they use the right tools.. I even went to the door and watched them do it. Nothing shady there.

 

[SMKS]

I'm also surprised this still happens.

I worked at a Sears Auto Center for about 3 years. We always used torque wrenches to verify final torque.

Also, the tire shops I've used recently have all used torque wrenches.

 

[Holt]

Also, the tire shops I've used recently have all used torque wrenches.

While this should be standard practice my guess more people would just use a impact but in this day in age so many people are sue happy and the shops need to do what right to protect themselves. I had a friend that bought new rims and tires separate and had a shop mount them and over torqued the lug nuts and the studs broke off on the interstate and the caliper sliced the rim in half. Thankfully no one was hurt but over torquing has more issues then you just not being able to take the tire off yourself. Being a certified mechanic doesn't just mean you know how to fix the problem but you know how to do it right and keep the person driving the car safe.

 

[Justin1776]

I worked for Advance auto for two semesters in college. We had a Sear's service store about 1 mile down the road, they broke lugnut studs almost daily. One day I ran out to deliver 1 stud and 1 lug nut. I got there (5 minutes) and they told me they needed another set. They tech had broke another stud on the same car! That being said, I've never used a torque wrench to tighten lugs and I've never bent a rotor or broken a stud and never had to use a breaker bar to remove a lugnut (that i'd previously tightened). I guess it's all in the technique and not being a ******* with the impact gun.

 

[bhalv]

totally know what your talking about. got my truck back from the service station 2 years ago, went to take the lungs off the front drivers side wheel and it took a 1/2" drive breaker bar with a 4 foot steel pipe off the end, with a 270lb man on the end to get them broken loose. I even had the honor of shattering a 3" long 1/2" drive extension in the process.

 

[SMKS]

We had a Sear's service store about 1 mile down the road, they broke lugnut studs almost daily. One day I ran out to deliver 1 stud and 1 lug nut. I got there (5 minutes) and they told me they needed another set. They tech had broke another stud on the same car!

This may have not been the fault of the Sears store.

We had cars come in sometimes at my Sears that had lugnuts stuck or cross-threaded from other shops. These were vehicles that hadn't been to our store or had another shop be the last ones to remove the wheels.

If a car comes in with over-tightened or cross-threaded lugnuts, it's not the fault of the shop that has to remove them.

 

[Jason280]

It could be worse, I've had two different shops completely break off wheel studs and not even mention it to me. I guess they figured that 5 out of 6 lug nuts were enough!

 

[Danglerb]

I think it was the Goodyear tire chain stores, mechanic friend of mine told me they pay minimum wage for a tire buster, at the time I think $6.75 hr.

First thing I want to see in a tire store is the torque wrench, otherwise they don't touch my tires.

 

[jamesc]

at work we get cars we haven't seen before where the tires haven't been of for 50,000 and the nuts will have siezed to the rim and or stud. or you get the nuts off and all the studs are different lengths, due to streching from overtightening. and it seems every other chrysler will have swollen wheel nuts so you have to hammer a socket on because the rust has spread open the chrome cap on the nut.

We use torque sticks at work and never have had a problem with getting lug nuts off on something we previously tightened. we also periodically check torque with torque wrenches to make sure things are working correctly.

 

[Smitherines]

I have a technique that I use with just an impact gun. I set mine to 3 and run them all in, in a star pattern, and then go around once and burp the trigger for a half second. I check them and it averages around 85-90ft/lbs when I do it that way, which is perfect for most passenger car wheels.

 

[The Dutchman]

I worked in an auto repair shop that had a huge lug nut torque chart on the wall & you had to use a torque wrench to tighten 'em down. But at the next place I continued to use a torque wrench & they told me I was taking too long on the jobs; I read the handwriting on the wall & realized my job was in jeopardy, so I started using torque sticks. I haven't had a problem in a year now.

There's no excuse for over tightening any fastener but it's MUCH worse to under torque them.

 

[geologist]

I always wondered of torque sticks were worth the money.

 

[BD1]

This is a fact of life. There are people that have tools and are employed by shops that have the IQ of a 3 year old. Sad but true, guess what.......... they often reproduce.

right, tools are only as smart as the user !

And yes again, stupid people should not breed !

 

[toolmaker1]

You torque my lugnuts past 90ft lbs I torque your nuts with my boot. Simple....................


the tire shop I use uses torque sticks so I have mine done while I wait and have them use a 60lb stick and when they are done they pull it out and I torque to 90 with my torque wrench. I appreciate this because I'm sure some douchebag lawyer would cringe at them not tightening them enough but they know me well enough to know I am doing it properly.

Another reason they let me do this is one time many years ago I made them buy me two new rotors after they torqued the **** out of my lugs and warped them so I have been busting their balls about it forever.

They are good guys and have treated me well so even with their prices a bit higher than others I still go there so it works out for both of us.

 

[greasemonkey44]

you see it all the time if you work in the repair business
usually you just need a bigger impact; or you just break the lug off
what really cracks me up is when people put the lugs on backwards; with the centering cones facing out
i use torque sticks and calibrated my gun to it; knock on wood ive had no comebacks, pays to check them once in a while too

 

[Murphy4570]

Torque sticks work.

With that said, I haven't used mine in years. I just set my impact to the lowest setting and torque the lugnuts on in the proper pattern. Doesn't torque the **** out of them.

You can also just leave the gun on kill, and hit the lugs for 1/2 second after they're tight to snug them on. Tight, but not too tight. Takes some time to get the "feel" of this. I haven't had any problems getting lugs off by hand this way on my own vehicles or customer cars. Then again, I am using a 2 foot long ratchet.

 

[Altec]

Every time a thread like this comes up, and all the comments flood in about how they check to see what the mechanic is using. I can't help but wonder. If you are wise enough to know the "right" way, why are you having others do the job for you...