Challenger (Canadian Proto etc.)

[thetreshon]

Question about Challenger by Proto and it's phasing into just "Challenger"

I've got several different misc. Canadian made Challenger sockets that I've picked up at pawn shops over the last few months and I've noticed that they range from:

Proto Challenger Canada
Challenger by Proto Canada
Challenger Canada
Challenger of Canada

And it made me wonder if towards the end, were these tools outsourced to overseas production? Were they called "of Canada" because now they were outsourced?

Were all these tools made in Canada?

 

[thetreshon]

bump

 

[thetreshon]

bump x2

 

[SMKS]

I can't weigh in on Canadian Proto, but I have some observations from here in the US. This is based on my observations looking at/buying used tools.

I believe in the USA they went from:

"Challenger" - Older designs, some with the helmet logo. Perhaps before Proto bought whatever company made Challenger.

"Challenger by Proto" - During Proto's ownership, obviously.

"Challenger" - reverted back to just "Challenger." The newest tools I've seen with this logo appear to be the same as the USA made Stanley. Also, the new Blackhawk wrenches made by Proto appear to be the same as the newer Challenger/Stanley USA tools.

The name "Challenger" has now been discontinued. Blackhawk is now Proto's mid-priced line.

 

[thetreshon]

Cool - thanks for the info on for U.S. Challenger - I do have some U.S. sockets as well.

 

[booya719]

This is an old thread but in case you're still around and might be interested to know I've got a Challenger combination wrench made in Canada it looks exactly the same as an American one.

I'm working on collecting a "Challenger by Proto" combination wrench set. Only difference is on my 3/4 it says Canada instead of USA. I found this 3/4 in a junkbox in the back of an old truck I bought at a sale. Bought it from an old man who sold out all his assets and was retiring. I've got a photo of two wrenches side by side for comparison in design.

I find it highly unlikely they were outsourced overseas. The Proto sockets that say "Canada" are all made in Canada. I'm not a huge expert on dates of things but my best guess is a long time ago they had plants in Canada and made tools for the Canadian market in Canada. I've got some Snap-on Canada and Herbrand Canada as well that I came across in similar fashion. At the same time this Canadian wrench was made, they of course made identical ones for Americans made in the USA.

It's like cars. Some are made in Windsor, some are made in Detroit. Made at the same time with no mechanical differences. In the case of Proto, as with Snap-on and other American brands, they at some point shut down the Canadian plants for good.

It's hard to collect full sets of matching Challenger because they changed the design too damn often. At any rate there really should be no difference in date, series, part number, or quality between the USA and Canadian Proto stuff. The only difference at all will be the COO stamp on the shank. They should be made at the same time to the same specifications.

That being said, I think it would be impossible to find anymore of these wrenches with Canada stamped on them. They are extremely rare and are like finding a needle in a haystack. It was just pure luck to find the one I came across. I've never seen another one since then. I've been working on completing my set with USA ones though.

 

[vssjim]

IR before them and then Stanley phased out P&C, Fleet, Challenger, New Britain, Vlchek. Millers Falls and others over the years and added Stanley distribution for cheapy tools and Blackhawk took over as the preferred name for automotive store type sales and economy industrial line. Stanley took the place of the economy lines as people they target were targeted on price not on quality.

 

[lowbucktruck]

Correction: Stanley didn't phase-out Fleet and Challenger; Proto did that (before Stanley acquisition). Can't blame Stanley for that. Penens was a tool division of Plomb (later Proto, after name change) that produced Fleet and Challenger tool lines. I've been picking up vintage Proto LA, Challenger and Fleet wrenches here and there, also trying to build up a complete set. Was curious about the Challenger brand history, so I did my research.

From Alloy Artifacts site:
"The Penens Corporation is known primarily for its operation as a subsidiary of Plomb Tool (and later Proto), having been acquired by Plomb in the early 1940s. Penens did contract production for Plomb during the war, and afterwards produced tools for several economy lines as part of the Plomb (later Proto) empire.
In 1947 Penens registered a trademark for "Fleet Quality Tools" and produced Fleet branded tools for a number of years. In addition to the Fleet brand, Penens also produced tools for the "Challenger" brand, at least up until the early 1960s. A 1951 Challenger catalog lists the Penens Corporation in Schiller Park, Illinois as the company address, and shows the Challenger logo as a gladiator's helmet.
By the mid 1960s the Penens Corporation had changed its name to the Fleet Tool Company."
http://home.comcast.net/~alloy-artifacts/proto-empire.html#penens

 

[lbgradwell]

I believe the logo progression was as follows:

There were at least 3 version of the logo in Canada. In order, they were:

1. challenger OF CANADA
2. PROTO CHALLENGER CANADA
3. CHALLENGER BY PROTO CANADA

 

[lbgradwell]

I'm not a huge expert on dates of things but my best guess is a long time ago they had plants in Canada and made tools for the Canadian market in Canada.

The Canadian Proto brands were made in London, ON. In addition to Proto & Challenger brands, the London plant also manufactured Canadian versions of Fleet, P&C and Penens for certain.

That being said, I think it would be impossible to find anymore of these wrenches with Canada stamped on them. They are extremely rare and are like finding a needle in a haystack. It was just pure luck to find the one I came across. I've never seen another one since then. I've been working on completing my set with USA ones though.

They are actually quite common & you will have little trouble building a set (or buying one complete) if you watch kijiji & craigslist and/or attend flea markets and the like. I'm not saying you will find a set tomorrow, but they could not fairly be called "rare"...

 

[lbgradwell]

IR before them and then Stanley phased out P&C, Fleet, Challenger, New Britain, Vlchek...

True, although New Britain doesn't really belong with the others in the sense it was never a Proto/Penens/Pendleton brand...

Correction: Stanley didn't phase-out Fleet and Challenger; Proto did that (before Stanley acquisition).

Stanley phased out Challenger. IR retained Challenger but phased out the other old Proto/Penens/Pendleton brands before Stanley bought Proto from IR in 1984.

 

[lowbucktruck]

True, although New Britain doesn't really belong with the others in the sense it was never a Proto/Penens/Pendleton brand...




Stanley phased out Challenger. IR retained Challenger but phased out the other old Proto/Penens/Pendleton brands before Stanley bought Proto from IR in 1984.

I stand corrected!
There is a nice little history of Proto in the online Stanley-Proto catalog:
http://www.stanleyproto.com/xhtml/LITERATURE/PROTOCATALOG_P20800_TABLEOFCONTENTSANDINTRODUCTION.PDF

 

[vssjim]

Stanley got the New Britain and Blackhawk names when New Britain went belly up but New Britain name was a non starter and I was clumping together IR and Stanley as a general because some brands were gone before Stanley bought Proto but wasn't going to get in a year to year deal about each brand but I really liked some of the fallen flags they both laid to rest over time. Both IR and Stanley have done good and bad things for these companies but at one time Proto was a hugh family of tool companies that are mostly down to two now.

 

[wafrederick]

I sent in a Proto Challenger socket,a broken 7mm 6 point shallow in 3/8 drive.I recieved a Blackhawk for a replacement yesterday.

 

[lbgradwell]

While we're on this subject again, does anyone know how late after the 1984 Stanley acquisition the Challenger brand survived?

Who has catalogues from the late 1980s to the 1990s?

 

[vssjim]

While we're on this subject again, does anyone know how late after the 1984 Stanley acquisition the Challenger brand survived?

Who has catalogues from the late 1980s to the 1990s?

I remember about five years ago a couple of ebay sellers had big lots of nos Challenger stuff like 1/4 ratchets, sockets and wrenches so they must have been selling it up to about 2000 at a minimum

 

[thetreshon]

Wow - so glad you guys not only resurected this thread, but dropped 11 posts in just over 12 hours!

Have to dig out my Challenger combos to see if I do have a 3/4 USA stamped one for booya719

lowbucktruck - thanks so much for posting that Plomb/Proto link! Reading it now (at work!) and I love reading stuff like that. Great information, makes you want to go back in time to all those eras...Glad Proto is still US made. I wish all Canadian and US manufacturers all had detailed information to give us like this. Some companies seem to have nothing...no history on their company and where it came from, espeically after so many aquisitions/mergers.

For some reason, I don't remember hearing/reading that Plomb was the company that actually invented the 'combination' wrench. Awesome to find that out, sorry if I'm stooopid for not knowing this yet

Wow - great read...just finished - thanks again for the post!

 

[lowbucktruck]

You are welcome. I enjoy reading stuff like that myself (bit of a history buff). I really enjoy the Alloy Artifacts website; just wish they would update it more often. It's neat to read and find out about the back story of some of these old tool brands.
Here on this site there are some older Proto/Plomb tool catalogs, for your leisure reading: http://bartlettstreet.com/toolcatalogs/


Hopefully we can track down some Proto or Challenger tool catalogs from the 1980's. I keep looking for them, but can't always bring myself to pay Ebay prices! If I find one, I will scan it for everyone to see.

 

[booya719]

Have to dig out my Challenger combos to see if I do have a 3/4 USA stamped one for booya719

Do you have any Challenger wrenches with Canada stamped on them as well? Another poster said it would be easy to put together a made in Canada set, yet I have not seen another one aside from my own 3/4 during the past 10 years. I stand by my opinion that they are at least rare, although maybe others simply have more luck coming across them than I do. If they are made in London, it makes sense to be able to find them in the southern Ontario region. Maybe they are just scarce here in western Canada.

 

[lbgradwell]

...yet I have not seen another one aside from my own 3/4 during the past 10 years.

You can never say that again!

 

[booya719]

You can never say that again!

That's pretty epic to see the different designs with Canada on them. The photo I quoted is the style I'm collecting currently. "Challenger by Proto." All mine say USA though except for the 3/4. Still missing a 7/8 and 3/8. They sure don't make affordable tools like this anymore. Even the economy line from those days was and still is hard to break.

 

[thetreshon]

Do you have any Challenger wrenches with Canada stamped on them as well? Another poster said it would be easy to put together a made in Canada set, yet I have not seen another one aside from my own 3/4 during the past 10 years. I stand by my opinion that they are at least rare, although maybe others simply have more luck coming across them than I do. If they are made in London, it makes sense to be able to find them in the southern Ontario region. Maybe they are just scarce here in western Canada.

Haha! Funny after looking thru some of my stuff, thougtht I had more, but the only Proto Canada (not challenger...) combo is a 3/4! I think that's the only Canada Combo I have from the Proto family...thougtht I had more, but I'll have to look further.

BUT parusing the pawn shops over the years, I do recall seeing a few Canadian Challenger combos here and there...if I see them in the near future, maybe I'll grab them - usually under a $1.00 each.

 

[lbgradwell]

BUMP!

A nice minty 11-piece set of Challenger by Proto CANADA combo wrenches was in a lot I bought today.

It's probably fair to say a pristine full set in pristine roll is relatively uncommon...

I'm tempted to keep this set just for the "Made in Canada" bit, but I'll probably sell these as I can't really justify yet another combination set...

 

[bluebolt]

BUMP!

A nice minty 11-piece set of Challenger by Proto CANADA combo wrenches was in a lot I bought today.

It's probably fair to say a pristine full set in pristine roll is relatively uncommon...

I'm tempted to keep this set just for the "Made in Canada" bit, but I'll probably sell these as I can't really justify yet another combination set...

Nice find! Maybe you should sell a different set instead of those!

 

[KSB]

Nice find!!

That would look good in any toolbox. I like!!

 

[lbgradwell]

Maybe you should sell a different set instead of those!

Hmm. That might be worth a look; I'll have to go through the inventory to see what can go.

The "problem" is that I have multiple sets of better wrenches than the Challengers & it doesn't really make sense to sell those to keep these. But I also have a few comparable sets that might be sold in their stead just so I can keep the Canadian product...

 

[Burgerkong]

How much was the damage?

 

[thetreshon]

Hmm. That might be worth a look; I'll have to go through the inventory to see what can go.

The "problem" is that I have multiple sets of better wrenches than the Challengers & it doesn't really make sense to sell those to keep these. But I also have a few comparable sets that might be sold in their stead just so I can keep the Canadian product...

Wow - that's a nice set you grabbed! And that pouch saying 'Canada' all over it is awesome! BTW, what are the sizes? (Sorry if you've already mentioned it...don't think I saw sizes mentioned here...)

Another idea is if you know anyone (friend, relative) that you could give this to as a gift! But I know, not everyone appreciates vintage tools, even if they're Canadian made. If it was a kid interested in tools you gave them to - unless they grew up interested and appreciating their parent's quality tools - they probably wouldn't care, and simply want the brand new 'half price every weekend" Mastercraft stuff...

Over the years I've slowly picked up Canadian made pieces on clearance (as those stores make way for cheaper foreign made products), and I'm planning to put together a kit of Canadian made tools (or USA here and there) in an NOS Mastercraft hand box for my son...he's only 1 right now, so it'll be a while until I gift this stuff to him, and fill it with more stuff

I know my wife would say "but those wrenches are old!", and I'd say, "but they're BRAND NEW!"

 

[lbgradwell]

How much was the damage?

Well, they came in a lot buy. I actually paid more than I would normally, but there was some really nice stuff that I wanted so I had to bite the bullet...

I don't want to muddy up this thread too much, but the lot included these large Snap-on Canada combos from 1954 & 1955 (the oldest Canadian production I've encountered).

My camera's battery is dead (and I left the charger up north two weekends ago) so these photos are the seller's from his ad. When I can, I'll post some close-ups of the Snap-on logo on those big combos as it appeared to change from 1954 to 1955. You can almost see it in this shot. Interesting:

Snap-on Canada 3/8"-drive SAE deeps (no date codes):

Proto of Canada Ltd. Ignition set in a boss old tool roll along with a metric KD set!:

Two more vintage Proto sets in rolls - double-ended metric flares & combo OE/flare SAEs:

A mint set of S-K metric combos from 7mm-22mm (missing 20mm):

A vintage S-K 1/4"-drive metric socket set:

I'll also post shots of the 3-piece mint set of Petersen long-nose Vise-Grips in tool roll I added when I visited the seller and the 48oz. Channellock ball peen hammer!

 

[Burgerkong]

Damn!

 

[lbgradwell]

BTW, what are the sizes? (Sorry if you've already mentioned it...don't think I saw sizes mentioned here...)

The Challenger by Proto set runs from 7mm-17mm inclusive.

The wrenches are virtually perfect but, unfortunately, the tool roll is not as clean as it appears in the photo above. The plastic is actually cracked in several places.

 

[thetreshon]

The Challenger by Proto set runs from 7mm-17mm inclusive.

The wrenches are virtually perfect but, unfortunately, the tool roll is not as clean as it appears in the photo above. The plastic is actually cracked in several places.

Great it was a full run of wrenches!

Awesome stuff you picked up all around...

 

[lbgradwell]

Awesome stuff you picked up all around...

Yeah, quite pleased to get Canadian-made stuff by Snap-on, Proto & Challenger. All three gone now...

Here's the Vise-Grips:

And the massive Channellock ball peen:

Posing with its 2oz. Blue-Point cousin!

 

[thetreshon]

Yeah, quite pleased to get Canadian-made stuff by Snap-on, Proto & Challenger. All three gone now...

Here's the Vise-Grips:

And the massive Channellock ball peen:

Posing with its 2oz. Blue-Point cousin!

beautiful set of Vise Grips and that's a really BFH! Awesome!

 

[lbgradwell]

I figured some of you might like to see the cover of the 1960 Challenger Canada catalogue...

...and a depiction of the plant itself:

And while we're at it, the 1965 Channellock catalogue cover:

 

[lbgradwell]

And, as promised, a better look at the Snap-on logo variations of 1954 & 1955:

 

[jvitez]

Very cool thread! It's great to see Canadian made tools.

For my American friends and the younger folk on GJ, the reason there were Canuck tool factories was simply trade protectionism. The US and Canada were both trying to protect their respective manufacturing industries, so there were enough import duties present to make it economical for larger companies to manufacture items in each country for their own sale.

The Canada-US Free Trade Agreement (FTA), and then the North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA) eliminated that and all the Canadian subsidiaries of US tool manufacturer's closed due to economies of scale.

 

[rancherbill]

The Canada-US Free Trade Agreement (FTA), and then the North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA) eliminated that and all the Canadian subsidiaries of US tool manufacturer's closed due to economies of scale.

That's part of the story. The other part is they wanted jobs for Americans. They closed plants, moved them to the US then closed those plants when they went overseas.

IMHO, the American tool industry will continue to shrink. Americans know how to buy, but they do not know how to sell. How many brands do we hear wonderful things about that are not available here. I go to the store, both DIY and professional places, and find European, Japanese, Chinese stuff on the shelf.

 

[OCD]

I was googling challenger proto wrenches and found this thread!!

Was going thru a box of assorted garage stuff I was given, mostly old screws, nails, junk, but these were at the bottom!! Almost a full set, missing 5/16, 1/2, 5/8, and 1 1/16...

Some say Challenger Canada, Challenger of Canada, or Proto Challenger Canada...

On a mission to find the missing ones now!! Pawn shop time!!

 

[ADSR]

^^Very cool!