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Final Nail in the Craftsman Coffin.

Toolhorder

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Supply and demand, the sears I go to have couple of each size on their shelfs. And the sales guys say even on sale. They do not really move. And the 3 sears I go to has high foot traffic and good sales.

It is a tool, not a whole lot of marketing. It is not a high turn over item.

Also the high end craftsman have never sold well, even when everything were still made in the USA. The consumer did not buy the craftsman pro, they brought the bread and butter RP stuff.

That's BS. They market the **** out of the new Chinese stuff. The dogbone wrench, the new universal line (it's on TV like every 30 mins.)
That ratchet could have sold good but they don't want to sell US made quality because the profit margin isn't as good.
 
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Toolhorder

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I think I said something about this earlyer today about how free trade act was a mistake a government allowed invasion of our Country.Global Economics doesn't work and now Americans are paying the price.

Again I say to you and everyone else that's not getting this
Ask not what your country can do for you but what can you do for your Country.

I wish he was still around. We need another Irish Catholic president. :rocker:
 

Toolhorder

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Wow, really now you guys are taking cracks at Unions? Can you guys not see most consumers in the US don't buy USA tools because they can't afford to and I say we can't afford to because of corporate greed. Corporations control inflation and have cut wages and inflated prices to line there pockets not giving a damn about what the consumer wants because they've figured out a way to force us to by cheaper quality that they still make a huge profit on. Calling strong Union states non business friendly may be true but at least they got the balls to stand up to these corporate over lords for the working mans right. Lets not forget who brought you sanitary working conditions, fair pay,40 hour weeks,, and the weekend. If your going to put it out there call it what it is business friendly states to the working man and consumer are right to starve states.

Nah unions are great look at what a great job the UAW did to the automotive industry!
 

shoturtle

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I think I said something about this earlyer today about how free trade act was a mistake a government allowed invasion of our Country.Global Economics doesn't work and now Americans are paying the price.

Again I say to you and everyone else that's not getting this
Ask not what your country can do for you but what can you do for your Country.

If the US did not join in, we would have been left behind. There are 2 sides to it, as the rest of the world went that way. When you live aboard and travel the world. You realized, the US is not the center of the world or the center of the world economies. It is a big part, but not a stand alone economies.

300 million in the US, 450 million in the EU these are the 2 biggest blocks economy wise. But china at 1.3 billion, india 1.5 billion, Brazil 200 million and Russia 200 million. Are are lucrative markets. And are getting more lucrative each day. And if we did not sign on, we would have been locked out of those markets.

It is easy to get tunnel vision until you see the world for what it is.

Further more on your fair wage argument, and the Unions. Union member should not fly SW or Jetblue or any of the budget airlines. As they are all non union. Instead they should fly the legacy Airlnes and pay more. They are all union and unions should support unions.

But the US consumer have voted with the wallet again to fly the budget airline. Thus causing a shift to the legacy. They have force them to lower pay to union workers. Because the consumer rather save 40 dollars a ticket look out for their fellow countrymen.

So if you want a fair wage, the consumer who is the provider of that wage after all is done. Do not support that belief of a fair wage.
 
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shoturtle

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Corporate used the UAW as a scape goat

Not really, the GM case the bond holder got thrown under the bus. The US build cars in detroit could not compete again the US made honda, toyota, bmw and MB down should. They had next to no margins for each car that came out of the gm plants up north.
 

Link-Belt

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Not really, the GM case the bond holder got thrown under the bus. The US build cars in detroit could not compete again the US made honda, toyota, bmw and MB down should. They had next to no margins for each car that came out of the gm plants up north.

Lets not forget who showed up to the trial in privet jets.
 

shoturtle

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Lets not forget who showed up to the trial in privet jets.

The jet does not bother me, as that was part of the business. But if you look at gm vs ford. GM was always worry about strikes, and have always given in. Ford on the other hand, dealt with strikes and had a better cash position in 2008. They had way better leadership.
 

JerseyBoatBuilder

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But Sear is doing that because the consumer demand cheaper tools and cheaper product. It is easy to bash Sears, but if you look at the root cause. It is the US consumers demand for cheaper products.

George Carlin summed it up perfectly in one of his versions of Stuff "Americans like and want cheap stuff just so they can buy more cheap stuff "..
 

OEXL16B

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I dont think any ratchet is worth over $100 unless it is a collector :dunno:.

That depends on how drastic of a situation you've been in. I've been in some car repair situations where the high dollar, high quality ratchet was WELL worth the money I spent on it. :D
 

oldgoat

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Not really, the GM case the bond holder got thrown under the bus. The US build cars in detroit could not compete again the US made honda, toyota, bmw and MB down should. They had next to no margins for each car that came out of the gm plants up north.
You leave out that the unions had made concessions to bring the cost down close to the foreign brands. Also the foreign brands haven't been around to start racking up the pension costs like Ford and GM. Also don't forget that GM's boss was still racking up some really good pay and benefits even though the company was failing. You also forget that the US companies had gotten to the point of poor service and quality. You also forget that the US companies basically only advertised for PU's, SUV's and high end cars. Their efforts in the compact and mid size was pretty minimal. The foreign makers produced good quality cars and got the market at the beginning. So they would move up as they progressed into higher paying jobs. Get a customer early and they will stay. US makers went the route of we'll keep our older customers and try to catch the new ones as they go up.
 

sooperdave

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Corporations control inflation and have cut wages and inflated prices to line there pockets not giving a damn about what the consumer wants because they've figured out a way to force us to by cheaper quality that they still make a huge profit on.

Not to hijack this thread, just wanna point out that inflation is a direct result of printing too much currency. The federal reserve and treasury are the ones responsible for that, not corporations. There are many goods that have gone down in price over time, when adjusted for inflation.
 

litng1

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I can no longer support craftsman anymore
Three generations me dad and his dad all bought craftsman because made in usa.It sickens me feels like a death in the family.I used ti enjoy going in sears and seing all the usa tools.
 

litng1

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If there so proud why don't they have in big letters made in china on them
 

thetreshon

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Personally Most guys today don't even care about that kind of stuf today. And you'd want to explain that stuff to a woman? Maybe the women from my generation are different, but I learned a long time ago that talking about tools to women is something they could care less about.

I pat you on the back and give you thumbs up for trying to be helpful. I'm sure you've steered a few people in the right direction. Just don't be suprised though if you start to become regrded as that weird obsesses guy who hangs out in the aisle looking at every detail of the packages and bugs people. :D Most people today (including trades people) have better things to do with their time.

Haha! yeah, i probably do come off weird, but I do have better things to do than wasting my time using crappy cheap tools that break while I'm working on something, so I try and help others avoid that too...

Some might think the average woman may not care, but I guess I figure they might care about their kids having a future with a decent paying job to look foward to, possibly in manufacturing.
 
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Mister Moose

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Lets not forget who showed up to the trial in privet jets.

This is uninformed, media driven, jealousy based, and wrong.

Here's why.

The more your time is worth, the more it costs the company to have you sit idle, like when you are going through airport security, waiting for delays, wating for connecting flights, etc. Now factor in multiple highly paid employees, all waiting, and the costs go way up.

Private jets exist for the same reason that you drive a car and don't take the bus. Time savings. Plus the bus doesn't go exactly where you want to go... but this really is another form of time savings.

All large corporations have their own flight departments for this exact reason. They fly to airports that don't have airline service that are closest to their plant, or closest to their vendor, or closest to their customer. They fly direct, not through some hub and spoke system. They leave early, get their business done, and fly on to the next destination the second they are done with the first. They get far more done in a day.

The same holds true for cargo. There are times you need something at any cost. When a large production line goes down due to a mechanical failure, and the factory needs parts, it is costing tens of thousands of dollars every hour that line is down. It is cost efficient to send an empty airplane halfway across the country to get the needed part, right now, not FedEx tomorrow, to get the part. That is what private aviation is all about.

Yes, the occaisional CEO takes a perk and flies to Hilton Head and plays golf.
Yes, the CEO salary is big. (I'd be in favor of more shareholder control of CEO salaries, but that's another thread) But don't think for a minute that corporate jets are all about greed. They are all about efficient use of time and money.

The media pointing out that the executives of the auto bailout arrived in private jets is just missing the whole point, and is pandering to tabloid journalism instead of actually doing some investigation and reporting the facts. You put several executives, plus their attorneys in a plane, and the combined cost per hour of their salaries creates a much bigger cost savings by going private than going on 'the bus', ie commercial aviation.
 
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allinon72

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People have a lack of education on economics as a whole, and that is fueled by an intellectually bankrupt media in which people take as gospel.
 

otis66

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And a simple point that say the US consumer is part of the problem and do not deserve the status of victim. Craftsman has a 84T made in the USA ratchet. But it is not a big seller at sears. The consumer is not willing to pay the 60 dollars for the 3/8 dr or the 50 for the 1/4 dr. They are made in the USA, and is cheaper then it's competitors high end ratchet, but just as good. But you still do not see them selling a ton of those ratchet.

The reason I do not have the new Craftsman Ratchet is because it will soon be made in China/Tiawan like the rest of the Craftsman line. I saw that coming the min SEARS listed it. Not falling for that one. I was born at night but it was not last night.
 

litng1

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U people that talk about ur phone and pads and flat screens.Well we don't have a choice anymore on buy american.That's not a good argument.We keep going to harbor freight we wont have a choice in tools
 

allinon72

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There is a real friendly guy at my local Sears that knows me by name. I was in there a few days ago and he says "hope to see you soon." I reply, as long as there's still USA stuff in here, I'll be back."

He didn't reply.
 

mmack66

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I do not look at the consumer as the victim here, consumers choose what they buy where they buy. And why has walmart and big boxes exploded. Because the consumer empower those company.

There is plenty of places to get quality stuff. But people are not breaking down the doors of those retailers that sell higher quality stuff.

I have every choice in NYC, and hate to say it the high end and above avg grade stores do not do the big business as the bargain stores and have been hurting more then the bargain stores. Stores like Old Navy, and H&M out sell J. Crew, Esprite and other higher end retailer. So no one is shoving low end product down my thought. It is consumer want more for their dollars.

You need to bone up on the history of Walmart working with China. It certainly wasn't consumer demand driving that relationship.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/walmart/secrets/wmchina.html
 
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shoturtle

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You leave out that the unions had made concessions to bring the cost down close to the foreign brands. Also the foreign brands haven't been around to start racking up the pension costs like Ford and GM. Also don't forget that GM's boss was still racking up some really good pay and benefits even though the company was failing. You also forget that the US companies had gotten to the point of poor service and quality. You also forget that the US companies basically only advertised for PU's, SUV's and high end cars. Their efforts in the compact and mid size was pretty minimal. The foreign makers produced good quality cars and got the market at the beginning. So they would move up as they progressed into higher paying jobs. Get a customer early and they will stay. US makers went the route of we'll keep our older customers and try to catch the new ones as they go up.

I did cover concession look at my airline post, legacy airlines have made their union make huge concession to stay in business. GM did not get those concession till they were about to go out of business. They were pretty much selling cars at a lost each and every model with their cost structure.
 

concealer404

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Buy what you want. I stated in that same post you have the right to look out for yourself. The treason part comes from your own statements of not really giving thought to or caring about the quality of life your fellow countryman has.

And the unreasonable part of that comes when you brand me of being guilty of treason because i don't buy imported tools. Brand me of being guilty of treason because i exercise that right to look out for myself.

Naturally, because if i'm so selfish to buy imported tools, clearly i don't care about my fellow countryman. :wtf:
 

shoturtle

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You need to bone up on the history of Walmart working with China. It certainly wasn't consumer demand driving that relationship.

Consumers did not need to choose to go to walmart. They just have the cheaper prices. So to save a buck or two they picked walmart. No one force them to shop at walmart. It is the consumers that drive there themselves freely.

It is the way Walmart press their supplier. That force the off shore of most their product. VW does the same with their suppliers, they give into their union. And VW give it on place, they take away at other. So VW's supplier off shore their parts to Asia.
 

concealer404

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How could they buy them when they were never marketed, stocked on shelves, couldn't be found easily on the companies website??? Not really a good example. I would buy those ratchets any day of the week but they don't sell a set package at any of the stores and they barely even have singles.

See some bean counter decided that selling "universal" black oxide ratchets was a better plan since they cost the company nickels on the dollar to product and dummy consumers wouldn't notice a difference. The new generation of Americans are all about "me me me me" and could care less about where they were made.

They don't stock them on shelves or market them because there's not enough of a return on that investment. They aren't a big seller.

Your average consumer is STILL going to buy the POS (USA made or not) Raised panel 36 tooth 3/8" Craftman ratchet no matter how many of the nice ratchet is stocked on the shelf.

You're the less than 1% that would buy the nice ratchet over the ****** one. When corporations cater to YOU, they go out of business. And that's that.

It's the most basic principle of capitalism: Supply and Demand. If you don't agree with how it works... then maybe China's world takeover might not be so bad for you. :scared:

(The last part was meant in jest, please don't take it personally. :) )
 

shoturtle

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The reason I do not have the new Craftsman Ratchet is because it will soon be made in China/Tiawan like the rest of the Craftsman line. I saw that coming the min SEARS listed it. Not falling for that one. I was born at night but it was not last night.

It might be off shore later, but the fact still is that consumers at sears do not buy their pro or high end series of tool. They make their tools sales on the RP and lower price items. That 84t ratchet just sits on the shelf vs their evolv on RP line.
 

concealer404

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I think I said something about this earlyer today about how free trade act was a mistake a government allowed invasion of our Country.Global Economics doesn't work and now Americans are paying the price.

Again I say to you and everyone else that's not getting this
Ask not what your country can do for you but what can you do for your Country.

What i can do for my country is live within my means and buy the highest quality tool i can so i don't go into debt when my POS cars break down and i have to take out a loan i probably can't afford to buy a new one.

What i'm doing for my country is paying taxes, and not adding to the National Debt. More than what the majority of the population can say. Care to judge us all some more?
 

Link-Belt

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This is uninformed, media driven, jealousy based, and wrong.

Here's why.

The more your time is worth, the more it costs the company to have you sit idle, like when you are going through airport security, waiting for delays, wating for connecting flights, etc. Now factor in multiple highly pai
Code:
d employees, all waiting, and the costs go way up.

Private jets exist for the same reason that you drive a car and don't take the bus. Time savings. Plus the bus doesn't go exactly where you want to go... but this really is another form of time savings.

All large corporations have their own flight departments for this exact reason. They fly to airports that don't have airline service that are closest to their plant, or closest to their vendor, or closest to their customer. They fly direct, not through some hub and spoke system. They leave early, get their business done, and fly on to the next destination the second they are done with the first. They get far more done in a day.

The same holds true for cargo. There are times you need something at any cost. When a large production line goes down due to a mechanical failure, and the factory needs parts, it is costing tens of thousands of dollars every hour that line is down. It is cost efficient to send an empty airplane halfway across the country to get the needed part, right now, not FedEx tomorrow, to get the part. That is what private aviation is all about.

Yes, the occaisional CEO takes a perk and flies to Hilton Head and plays golf.
Yes, the CEO salary is big. (I'd be in favor of more shareholder control of CEO salaries, but that's another thread) But don't think for a minute that corporate jets are all about greed. They are all about efficient use of time and money.

The media pointing out that the executives of the auto bailout arrived in private jets is just missing the whole point, and is pandering to tabloid journalism instead of actually doing some investigation and reporting the facts. You put several executives, plus their attorneys in a plane, and the combined cost per hour of their salaries creates a much bigger savings by going private than going on 'the bus', ie commercial aviation.

So what you are saying is it is perfectly ethical in economics for a company to expect it's workers to give up there wages and benefits and to modify there lives to a lower standard of living to keep the corporation afloatwhen there is certainly luxury that they could give up to make up the void. Again the UAW had already made concessions to help however corporate greed wanted them to give up more while they kept lining there pockets. According to you a CEOs time is more valuable then the assembly line workers? Come on no man in this world puts hos pants on any different then the next. I don't think I have ever heard of a CEO of these big cooperation having to struggle to make the mortgage payment or live pay check to pay check. I really don't see your reasoning.
 

shoturtle

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That's BS. They market the **** out of the new Chinese stuff. The dogbone wrench, the new universal line (it's on TV like every 30 mins.)
That ratchet could have sold good but they don't want to sell US made quality because the profit margin isn't as good.

Because they know that the consumer would rather pay the 14 dollar for the evolv ratchet or the 18 dollar for the RP vs the 60 dollar for the 84t. Spending allot of money on marketing an item that will not sell if just burning your advertisement budget. There is not a whole lot of sears craftsman tool commercial more blue team stuff instead with major appliances.
 

concealer404

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So what you are saying is it is perfectly ethical in economics for a company to expect it's workers to give up there wages and benefits and to modify there lives to a lower standard of living to keep the corporation afloatwhen there is certainly luxury that they could give up to make up the void. Again the UAW had already made concessions to help however corporate greed wanted them to give up more while they kept lining there pockets. According to you a CEOs time is more valuable then the assembly line workers? Come on no man in this world puts hos pants on any different then the next. I don't think I have ever heard of a CEO of these big cooperation having to struggle to make the mortgage payment or live pay check to pay check. I really don't see your reasoning.

On the flip side, is it ethical to limit someone's success? I thought that capitalism was a good thing....?

Can the assembly worker run the company? Likely not. If he could, he'd be running a company. So... yes. The CEO's time is more valuable. TO THE COMPANY.

I'm not so delusional to think that my time is worth the same as my CEO's... that's just asinine at best. I couldn't run the company, so i don't expect to be paid the same. I'm not greedy or jealous.
 

Link-Belt

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What i can do for my country is live within my means and buy the highest quality tool i can so i don't go into debt when my POS cars break down and i have to take out a loan i probably can't afford to buy a new one.

What i'm doing for my country is paying taxes, and not adding to the National Debt. More than what the majority of the population can say. Care to judge us all some more?

Question, you ever see a CE with a ************* car or ****** tools?
 

shoturtle

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On the flip side, is it ethical to limit someone's success? I thought that capitalism was a good thing....?

Can the assembly worker run the company? Likely not. If he could, he'd be running a company. So... yes. The CEO's time is more valuable. TO THE COMPANY.

I'm not so delusional to think that my time is worth the same as my CEO's... that's just asinine at best. I couldn't run the company, so i don't expect to be paid the same. I'm not greedy or jealous.

People just buy into the party line of executive compensation as one of the evils out there.
 

concealer404

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Question, you ever see a CE with a ************* car or ****** tools?

No.

I'm not entirely sure why this is relevant.

Why? Because they make more than i do.

Why? BECAUSE THEY DESERVE TO MAKE MORE THAN I DO.

I'm 100% ok with that.
 
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